I really just see the bigness of it all

[vaalpens]

I don't remember, do you have any WST? I guess I should try it in .45 ACP myself. It gets good press there. Maybe a WST vs Sport Pistol shoot out.

No, I don't have any WST. When I started reloading I looked at WST and WSF but was concerned that being inexperienced that I would get confused between the two of them. Even up to this day I still steer away from WST and WSF. I think Dudedog likes to use WST, or maybe it is WSF. Probably safer for me to just stay away from using either one of them.

 

[Blue68f100]

I don't know why we keep recommending it. Execpt the fact it burns so clean and meter likes a dream. And the fact it preforms very very good at reduced loads. It would be hard to find a powder that burns as clean as WST at reduced BE loads. During the last shortage it was one of the last powders to come back in stock. For me WST is for by BE loads and soft plinking loads. WSF for the heavier work. Both meter exceptionally since they are ball powders.

 

[Walkalong]

WST is very good stuff, I just haven't needed to try it in .45 ACP and haven't done any load work with .45 ACCP for some time.

I found Competition to be nearly the same thing as WST, but a bit more energy, say .1 gr in a light .38 Spl target load. I can't shoot the difference in it and WST in light .38 Spl and .357 loads using plated WCs and SWCs.

During the middle of the craziness I bought 4 Lbs of Competition because WST was AWOL. I had used up most of my one pounders of WST and Competition.

 

[SharpDog]

This is one of the quotes/sayings of our 45th president and a nice lead into what this thread is about. Me finally adding the big 45acp caliber to my stable.

I have been wanting and planning for a while to include 45acp in my reloading, but have never been able to find the right pistol at the right price. Finally the planets were aligned and my wife told me to by something for myself, but obviously still within a budget. I like my SIGs, but a Legion was definitely not in the price range. This time of the year SIG has some discontinued models, so I was able to find a reasonably priced SIG P220 Scorpion Elite.

Finally I am going to add 45acp to my stable, and will hopefully appreciate the "bigness" of the caliber.

That leads me to the reason for this post. I am starting my planning to reload for 45acp and needs to decide if I should start with 200gr or 230gr bullets. Since developing loads is an investment (time and money), I try not to change the weight of the bullets I buy, primarily because of the load development investment already made.

I would appreciate it if you can give me some insight in why you shoot or prefer a 230gr bullet over 200gr or vise versa. This will be mostly a range gun and running some drills. In 9mm I prefer 124gr over 115gr, and in 40s&w I have preferred 165gr over 180gr. Lately I have started to appreciate the 180gr more, especially when I run my drills since it seems to provide easier follow up shots. I normally like to shoot FP bullets over RN bullets, but that is just a preference for target shooting.

It is interesting what all needs to be done once you add a new caliber. Luckily I already have the dies, trays and powder. All I need now is to decide on the bullet weight and get some large pistol primers. Additional things I had to do was to make space for my 45acp specific containers in my process, setting aside and labeling the 45acp specific ammo can(s), and starting to prep some cases.

I am definitely looking forward to finally join the 45acp reloading and shooting family.

I don't reload, so take it with a grain of salt, but I use 200 gr. exclusively in .45 acp.

 

[Dudedog]

WSF is my favorite for 9mm.

Need to get some WST to try in .45 but still haven't had a chance to try out the lb of Silhouette I bought a while back in 9mm.
Sounds like I should maybe add Sport pistol to the list as well.
I need to try to get out to shoot my work ups on the Xtreme 200gr .45 SWCs I bought a while but just haven't had a chance.
Work has been being a pain lately.
Looking forward to your test results, great write ups as always.

 

[vaalpens]

WSF is my favorite for 9mm.

Need to get some WST to try in .45 but still haven't had a chance to try out the lb of Silhouette I bought a while back in 9mm.
Sounds like I should maybe add Sport pistol to the list as well.
I need to try to get out to shoot my work ups on the Xtreme 200gr .45 SWCs I bought a while but just haven't had a chance.
Work has been being a pain lately.
Looking forward to your test results, great write ups as always.

I just looked at the burn rate and WSF is 3 positions slower than PowerPistol. PP is my favorite in 9mm. Have you ever tried PowerPistol in 9mm?

You did posted some 200gr SWC results already. What loads are you planning on testing?

 

[vaalpens]

I don't reload, so take it with a grain of salt, but I use 200 gr. exclusively in .45 acp.

Thanks for the input. Why did you decide on 200gr vs 185gr or 230gr?

 

[SharpDog]

Thanks for the input. Why did you decide on 200gr vs 185gr or 230gr?

I prefer middle weights. Except in the smallest calibers. I find that's a good compromise between momentum and kinetic energy.

 

[Dudedog]

I was planning on doing my ladder with HP38 and AA #2, maybe something else thrown in.
From initial tests the Xtreme 200swcs just didn't shoot as well as coated MBC or ACME SWCs. 200gr SWCs I have used in the past. Probably won't order them again unless my next couple tests show something different.
When doing my quick test of the new RMR plated 230gr RNs it was easy to get a load that shot as well as I can shoot, 5.0gr HP38 ot 5.0gr of AA#2.

I liked PP ok but seemed flashy to me even in daylight.
Was going to try to do some testing this weekend but just don't feel like it. Maybe a deprime a couple 1000 cases type weekend.
Quick comments, my dog died this morning, so sad our small furry friends have such short lives, but of course time is fleeting....
(and should be spent with friends, family, then reloading and shooting)

PS: out of shape, digging a 4' dia hole 6 ft deep is more work than I remembered it being a couple years ago.
rrrfff rrrfff rrfff
DD

 

[Walkalong]

PS: out of shape, digging a 4' dia hole 6 ft deep is more work than I remembered it being a couple years ago

I know that feeling, everything is getting tougher by the birthday.

 

[vaalpens]

Quick comments, my dog died this morning, so sad our small furry friends have such short lives, but of course time is fleeting....

Sorry to hear about your dog. Our dog was put to sleep two months ago and it was difficult. Hang in there.

 

[vaalpens]

I was planning on doing my ladder with HP38 and AA #2, maybe something else thrown in.
From initial tests the Xtreme 200swcs just didn't shoot as well as coated MBC or ACME SWCs. 200gr SWCs I have used in the past. Probably won't order them again unless my next couple tests show something different.
When doing my quick test of the new RMR plated 230gr RNs it was easy to get a load that shot as well as I can shoot, 5.0gr HP38 ot 5.0gr of AA#2.

After my next testing I will definitely load and test the 200gr SWC's. I have been lucky with the Berry's 200gr RS bullets, plus they are not that expensive locally. The Xtreme 200gr SWC bullets normally sell for $60.50 per 500 unless there is a discount, but the 200gr Berry's I can buy locally for $59.95. The Berry's 200gr RS is definitely my choice at this time.

 

[Dudedog]

Might have to give the Berry's a try.
Still need to get results posted from the bullets you sent me PIF

 

[Walkalong]

I will definitely load and test the 200gr SWC's

Precision 200 Gr SWC. Worth a try, they shoot very well and are priced well. Been around a long time. I have also had great luck with the ACME 175 Gr SWC, should have tried the 200 instead. Priced comparably.


https://www.precisionbullets.com/store.html



http://www.acmebullet.com/bullets-reloading-brass/45-ACP-Lead-Bullets?product_id=428

For plated/jacketed 200 Gr SWCs I have only used the old Hornady 200 Gr SWC encapsulated and the Ranier, both of which shot well. I have never tried the Berrys or X-Treme 200 Gr SWCs. And of course years ago I shot a lot of plain lead 200 Gr SWCs. I just don't shoot much lead these days.

 

[vaalpens]

There is another bullet company I have been looking at with reasonable prices. I don't know how good their bullets are or how good the customer service is, but the price is definitely lower than anything else I have seen for Hi-Tek coated bullets. Looks like shipping is the same as MBC where you pay at a minimum for a medium flat rate box, where ACME will ship a smaller box if it will fit.

http://www.summersenterprisesllc.com/category-s/109.htm

The 200gr bullets are $37 per 500.

 

[vaalpens]

This weekend I made time to complete one more round of testing before I decide on the loads for the SWC bullets.

First up is HP-38. These loads tested and felt very similar to the SportPistol loads, and actually gave the best groupings with the same charges as SportPistol. I did not see the very small groupings I saw with SportPistol, but it could be due to my shooting since it was a windy day out there.

Since the HP-38 and SportPistol are so similar, it makes sense to just pick one of them for the SWC test, and it will probably be SportPistol.

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: GFL
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, HP38, 5.2gr, CCI300
Average: 749
ES: 56
SD: 26.9
Force: 249
PF: 149
Velocities: 762, 716, 772, 725, 772
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.94"
Test Date: 03/18/2018


45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: GFL
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, HP38, 5.3gr, CCI300
Average: 760
ES: 63
SD: 24.5
Force: 256
PF: 152
Velocities: 790, 772, 727, 769, 746
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.92"
Test Date: 03/18/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: GFL
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, HP38, 5.4gr, CCI300
Average: 768
ES: 47
SD: 20.1
Force: 262
PF: 153
Velocities: 796, 749, 749, 778, 771
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.95"
Test Date: 03/18/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: GFL
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, HP38, 5.5gr, CCI300
Average: 771
ES: 72
SD: 29
Force: 264
PF: 154
Velocities: 810, 790, 751, 769, 738
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.34"
Test Date: 03/18/2018


45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: GFL
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, HP38, 5.6gr, CCI300
Average: 801
ES: 54
SD: 21.8
Force: 285
PF: 160
Velocities: 838, 803, 784, 794, 787
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.83"
Test Date: 03/18/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: GFL
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, HP38, 5.7gr, CCI300
Average: 816
ES: 42
SD: 16
Force: 296
PF: 163
Velocities: 838, 807, 817, 824, 796
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.58"
Test Date: 03/18/2018

 

[vaalpens]

The second powder I tested was Bullseye. The results for Bullseye was interesting. I did see better chrono numbers, did not see the very small groups (could be me on the windy day), but the groupings were very consistent throughout the loads. The consistency in grouping through different charges definitely makes Bullseye a possible candidate for the SWC testing, but for now it seems it will be SportPistol and either Bullseye or BE-86.

Following are the testing results:

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: CBC
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, Bullseye, 4.6gr, CCI300
Average: 745
ES: 33
SD: 14.9
Force: 246
PF: 149
Velocities: 755, 748, 763, 730, 730
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.11"
Test Date: 03/18/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: CBC
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, Bullseye, 4.7gr, CCI300
Average: 740
ES: 22
SD: 10.8
Force: 243
PF: 148
Velocities: 745, 729, 728, 749, 750
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.2"
Test Date: 03/18/2018


45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: CBC
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, Bullseye, 4.8gr, CCI300
Average: 768
ES: 22
SD: 8.3
Force: 262
PF: 153
Velocities: 758, 780, 765, 773, 767
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.06"
Test Date: 03/18/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: CBC
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, Bullseye, 4.9gr, CCI300
Average: 785
ES: 22
SD: 8.3
Force: 274
PF: 157
Velocities: 795, 782, 773, 786, 790
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.07"
Test Date: 03/18/2018


45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: CBC
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, Bullseye, 5gr, CCI300
Average: 808
ES: 43
SD: 19.7
Force: 290
PF: 161
Velocities: 825, 832, 805, 789, 790
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.02"
Test Date: 03/18/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: CBC
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, Bullseye, 5.1gr, CCI300
Average: 808
ES: 29
SD: 11.9
Force: 290
PF: 161
Velocities: 826, 815, 797, 802, 802
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.05"
Test Date: 03/18/2018

 

[Toprudder]

I don't know why we keep recommending it. Execpt the fact it burns so clean and meter likes a dream. And the fact it preforms very very good at reduced loads. It would be hard to find a powder that burns as clean as WST at reduced BE loads. During the last shortage it was one of the last powders to come back in stock. For me WST is for by BE loads and soft plinking loads. WSF for the heavier work. Both meter exceptionally since they are ball powders.

A while back I did a lot of testing with 45acp and many different powders. WST is one I liked (for low recoil loads) but I never have gotten back around to doing any further testing with it. I may need to move that up the list.

 

[vaalpens]

The last few weekends have been busy, but finally I had some time this weekend to test the Xtreme 200gr SWC bullets.

The accuracy results were not what I expected, but it could have been me since I was fighting failure to feed issues today with the SWC bullets. I did not change anything regarding COL or crimp, but I shot a total of 60 rounds instead of the previous just 5.

It seems I will have to decrease the COL even more to see if it will help. So far for me with the P220, the Berry's 200gr RS bullets have been flawless with no failure to feed, so it seems it is a better fit for my P220.

Even though the SWC groupings were not that great, it compared well with the Berry's RS groupings. The best grouping with BE-86 was 6.3gr for both SWC and RS, and the best grouping with SportPistol was 5.3gr with SWC and 5.6/5.3gr for RS.

Following are are SportPistol results from my testing today:

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Winchester
COL: 1.220"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, SportPistol, 5.2gr, CCI300
Average: 816
ES: 39
SD: 19.7
Force: 296
PF: 163
Velocities: 795, 830, 828, 795, 834
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.58"
Test Date: 04/15/2018


45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Winchester
COL: 1.220"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, SportPistol, 5.3gr, CCI300
Average: 846
ES: 53
SD: 20.8
Force: 318
PF: 169
Velocities: 831, 874, 853, 853, 821
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.91"
Test Date: 04/15/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Winchester
COL: 1.220"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, SportPistol, 5.4gr, CCI300
Average: 856
ES: 53
SD: 22.4
Force: 325
PF: 171
Velocities: 823, 865, 873, 844, 876
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.11"
Test Date: 04/15/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Winchester
COL: 1.220"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, SportPistol, 5.5gr, CCI300
Average: 833
ES: 67
SD: 25.7
Force: 308
PF: 166
Velocities: 797, 864, 819, 842, 843
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.19"
Test Date: 04/15/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Winchester
COL: 1.220"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, SportPistol, 5.6gr, CCI300
Average: 860
ES: 63
SD: 27.2
Force: 328
PF: 172
Velocities: 822, 868, 884, 885, 844
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.1"
Test Date: 04/15/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Winchester
COL: 1.220"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, SportPistol, 5.7gr, CCI300
Average: 895
ES: 53
SD: 19.9
Force: 356
PF: 179
Velocities: 873, 902, 926, 887, 890
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.14"
Test Date: 04/15/2018

Following are are BE-86 results from my testing today:

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Winchester
COL: 1.220"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, BE86, 5.8gr, CCI300
Average: 762
ES: 19
SD: 8.2
Force: 258
PF: 152
Velocities: 767, 749, 768, 768, 760
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.11"
Test Date: 04/15/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Winchester
COL: 1.220"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, BE86, 5.9gr, CCI300
Average: 769
ES: 43
SD: 15.5
Force: 263
PF: 153
Velocities: 793, 750, 772, 768, 765
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.19"
Test Date: 04/15/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Winchester
COL: 1.220"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, BE86, 6gr, CCI300
Average: 786
ES: 29
SD: 10.6
Force: 274
PF: 157
Velocities: 774, 788, 803, 784, 783
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.89"
Test Date: 04/15/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Winchester
COL: 1.220"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, BE86, 6.1gr, CCI300
Average: 808
ES: 49
SD: 19.2
Force: 290
PF: 161
Velocities: 806, 833, 799, 784, 822
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.1"
Test Date: 04/15/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Winchester
COL: 1.220"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, BE86, 6.2gr, CCI300
Average: 802
ES: 15
SD: 5.4
Force: 286
PF: 160
Velocities: 801, 796, 803, 811, 802
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.13"
Test Date: 04/15/2018


45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Winchester
COL: 1.220"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, BE86, 6.3gr, CCI300
Average: 821
ES: 39
SD: 14.4
Force: 299
PF: 164
Velocities: 815, 844, 820, 805, 823
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.78"
Test Date: 04/15/2018

 

[Toprudder]

I had occasional feed issues with the Xtreme 200 SWC in a couple of my guns. I had better luck with the Xtreme RN 200 or 230gn bullets.

 

[Jim Watson]

I was fighting failure to feed issues today with the SWC bullets. 45acp, P220, 4.4"

I consider the P220 design to be incompatible with semiwadcutters. When my first would not feed the SWCs I loaded for 1911s, I got to studying the situation. When the P220 .45 barrel cams down to unlock, it brings the rim of the empty case below the breechface. When the slide comes back with the empty under the extractor, that protruding rim hits the shoulder of the top SWC in the magazine. This brings everything to a halt. I have read accounts of P220s functioning with SWCs and I conclude that they must have cases with a bevel on the rim and/or SWCs with a bevel on the shoulder such that they deflect off of each other. I traded off that first P220 but liked the gun well enough that I got another. But I don't ask it to shoot SWCs.
First generation XDs had the same problem. The second version had the stripper rail angled to prevent it.

I had occasional feed issues with the Xtreme 200 SWC in a couple of my guns. I had better luck with the Xtreme RN 200 or 230gn bullets.

I never got plated SWCs to feed well in anything, even a well throated 1911 that was fine with cast SWCs. The plated bullets are not faithful copies of the Crawford design H&G #68 that most of the casters make.

 

[vaalpens]

Thanks for the replies regarding the plated SWC's in a P220. At least I know I am probably not the only one having FTF issues. My original plan for the remaining SWC's was to pick a load, load them up and do some drills with them to get a better feel on how they perform With the FTF issues, I will probable now just play with the COL and see if I can eliminate the FTF's. Dudedog indicated that he loads them with a COL of 1.20", so that is probably where I will start.

 

[Dudedog]

Just a hair of the bottom of the bullet out of the case mouth works for me but that's in a 1911.
Interesting insight from Jim on SWCs in the 220.
I think the coated SWCs shot better for me than the plated ones.
And for light-medium loads the softer BHN12 ones from MBC shot better than the harder BHN 18 ones.
In Full power loads it was to close to call between the two for me.
Hope your having fun with the .45!

 

[vaalpens]

Just a hair of the bottom of the bullet out of the case mouth works for me but that's in a 1911.
Interesting insight from Jim on SWCs in the 220.
I think the coated SWCs shot better for me than the plated ones.
And for light-medium loads the softer BHN12 ones from MBC shot better than the harder BHN 18 ones.
In Full power loads it was to close to call between the two for me.
Hope your having fun with the .45!

I am having a "blast" with the .45. Thanks again for sending the SWC's to me. I have learned a lot from them, and hopefully my testing helped some of the THR members also. Interesting to see the difference of around 40fps between the RS and SWC bullets. I assume it is mostly due to the seating depth.

The remainder of the SWC's will be loaded with a COL of 1.20", and probably with 6.3gr BE-86. The BE-86 gave me a better grouping, and the velocity was a bit lower than the SportPistol loads. Since the bullets will be seated another .02" deeper, I decided to go with the lower velocity load. The plan is to run some drills with them, and if I get any FTF's, then at least I will get some practice clearing them.