I really just see the bigness of it all

[Toprudder]

What version of the Speer handbook did you get this data from?

#14.

 

[Walkalong]

Make sure they plunk at 1.275

Make sure they fit the mags as well. I have some mags that won't accept that OAL. I don't load any .45 ACP over 1.260/1.265

I load the SWCs for light recoil and accuracy, not speed.

 

[kidneyboy]

A big thumbs up to all the participants in this thread. I'm considering adding 45acp to the collection and this whole thread has really been helpful as I think about the reloading aspects of it.

 

[vaalpens]

5.4gr HP38
5.5gr AA#2
6.3gr WSF (The jar was sitting on the bench already so what the heck)
6.4 CFE-P
I want to chrono get some initial vels on these guys so I have an idea of which way I want to go.
I will want to make major 165 PF so probably want them to be about 170 PF for wiggle room PF wise.
Guessing may be a little light on the HP38 and AA#2 loads an maybe a little more than I need with WSF but seemed a reasonable starting point.
Interesting your 6.3 load was quite a bit slower than what I would guess from looking at Hodgdons data for the 200gr HP. Will need to see where my gun is with 6.4gr.

Thanks for sharing. I did not know that you were trying to make major PF. I don't have the 45acp reloading experience, but it seems to be easy to make major. The question is just if you want to get to major at the low, middle or high end of a powder range, what the feel is going to be like, and how accurate the load is.

My P220 only has a 4.4" barrel, and I always find that plated bullets run slower than jacketed bullet. This could attribute to the difference, but it also seems that CFE Pistol load data is not always very consistent.

Make sure they plunk at 1.275 (I'm sure you will check without my mentioning it but ).]]]]])=> the '']] part is bore dia so depending on your barrel you can't have a lot of it out of the case mouth.
#s I usually see for 200 SWCs are like 1.19-1.23
I usually load SWCs with just a hair of the base ])above the lip of the case mouth.

I will definitely do a plunk test before I load any. I just normally measure a new bullet and then have a target COL. But the plunk and cycle test normally just confirms the targeted COL, or make me adjust it.

 

[vaalpens]

Make sure they fit the mags as well. I have some mags that won't accept that OAL. I don't load any .45 ACP over 1.260/1.265

I load the SWCs for light recoil and accuracy, not speed.

Good to know thanks! Based on the bullet profile it seems I should be able to load from around 1.195" upwards. Seating it a 1.20" probably means I could start the load at .1gr lower if I want to.

 

[vaalpens]

Make sure they fit the mags as well. I have some mags that won't accept that OAL. I don't load any .45 ACP over 1.260/1.265

I did a quick test and yes, a COL of 1.275" won't work in my mags. Looks like around 1.250" will work, but I will go with 1.240" just to be on the safe side. The 1.240" passes the plunk and cycling test in the SIG P220.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The 1.240" passes the plunk and cycling test in the SIG P220.

It is one of the idiosyncrasies of the 220 that the magazines don't always play well with all bullet profiles. The old German dovetail back or zipper back mags wouldn't feed Remington Golden Sabre JHP

The current 8rd magazines manufactured by MecGar or ACT Mag seem to be more tolerant

 

[vaalpens]

It is one of the idiosyncrasies of the 220 that the magazines don't always play well with all bullet profiles. The old German dovetail back or zipper back mags wouldn't feed Remington Golden Sabre JHP

The current 8rd magazines manufactured by MecGar or ACT Mag seem to be more tolerant

It looks like the mags will handle RN bullets better. Please note that I corrected my previous post. The COLs listed are now 1.24" and 1.25" instead of the incorrect 1.14" and 1.15".

 

[Dudedog]

In the past for practice/plinking loads for .45 I didn't care what vel they were as long as they shot well.
But since I am going to be doing some new work ups I want to try to come up with a load (easy to get 165) that makes 165 and not a lot more, say maybe 170ish
and of course shoots well, and of course some loads just feel better than others.
Then if I decide to shoot my .45 in SS I can declare major.
(of course major/minor no difference just shoot all As)

 

[vaalpens]

In the past for practice/plinking loads for .45 I didn't care what vel they were as long as they shot well.
But since I am going to be doing some new work ups I want to try to come up with a load (easy to get 165) that makes 165 and not a lot more, say maybe 170ish
and of course shoots well, and of course some loads just feel better than others.
Then if I decide to shoot my .45 in SS I can declare major.
(of course major/minor no difference just shoot all As)

So we are trying the find the softest shooting, most accurate (need all the help we can get) load in 45acp making 170pf and using a 200gr plated bullet. Let the load workup and testing begin. Those SS open sight matches do seem like a lot of fun.

 

[vaalpens]

I did a quick test and yes, a COL of 1.275" won't work in my mags. Looks like around 1.250" will work, but I will go with 1.240" just to be on the safe side. The 1.240" passes the plunk and cycling test in the SIG P220.

I know need to load ladders of course but just for fun I have 100 of the Xtreme 200 swcs loaded up
OAL on all 1.20
Plunks fine and my .45s both fed coated+lead SWCs fine at this OAL

I haven't tested these SWC bullets yet, but this weekend I decided to load the magazine with all 5 rounds instead of just the two dummy rounds to do one final magazine fit test. At an angle the rounds started sticking, so I decided to lower the COL to 1.22". Now at least I can get the ammo loaded and unloaded without any sticking. Looks like I am getting closer to the Dudedog suggested COL of 1.20".

 

[Dudedog]

And maybe just a fun practice load regardless of PF
I may decide to load the SWCs lighter than that for fun.

I like the nice clean holes, but then every now and then wonder if clean holes are worth being finicky about OAL.

 

[vaalpens]

With the last outing I wasn't able to get any chrono numbers for the Longshot load, so as promised following is the 7.0gr Longshot load again. As a bonus and to get a feel of how the 200gr SWC will perform, a 7.0gr SWC was also included in the test. Unlike last time, this time the loads were tested at 15yards using a scope. I did not expect a very good grouping load since this is the starting load for Longshot, but i think it was not bad at all.

The SIG P220 had no problems cycling the 200gr SWC using a COL of 1.220".


45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.220"
Xtreme, 200gr, SWC, Longshot, 7gr, CCI300
Average: 860
ES: 62
SD: 23
Force: 328
PF: 172
Velocities: 849, 830, 892, 864, 868
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.35"
Test Date: 02/11/2018


45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, Longshot, 7gr, CCI300
Average: 813
ES: 82
SD: 33.2
Force: 293
PF: 162
Velocities: 810, 843, 812, 761, 841
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.93"
Test Date: 02/11/2018

 

[vaalpens]

My first real load workup in 45acp is now in the books. I started with CFE Pistol since the initial test was accurate. It is probably a powder that is slower than optimum, so it was a good starting workup that I can use to get a feeling of how well the P220 will work with the scope and mount.

The results for CFE Pistol wasn't really good, but also wasn't bad. It was very consistent throughout all the loads.

I also loaded up 25 of the BE-86 starting load to use for zeroing the chrono and some practice rounds. Since I had enough rounds, I also tested it at 15yards to get a feel how it compares to CFE Pistol, and what to expect when I start working up loads using BE-86. The BE-86 load performed very good, with one little flyer, probably me.

First the CFE Pistol loads:

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, CFEpistol, 6.3gr, CCI300
Average: 740
ES: 165
SD: 66.8
Force: 243
PF: 148
Velocities: 625, 758, 790, 746, 782
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.02"
Test Date: 02/11/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, CFEpistol, 6.4gr, CCI300
Average: 759
ES: 43
SD: 19.4
Force: 256
PF: 151
Velocities: 742, 776, 759, 738, 781
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.19"
Test Date: 02/11/2018


45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, CFEpistol, 6.5gr, CCI300
Average: 790
ES: 90
SD: 34
Force: 277
PF: 158
Velocities: 739, 829, 810, 794, 781
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.95"
Test Date: 02/11/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, CFEpistol, 6.6gr, CCI300
Average: 787
ES: 46
SD: 20.6
Force: 275
PF: 157
Velocities: 804, 796, 804, 758, 773
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.06"
Test Date: 02/11/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, CFEpistol, 6.7gr, CCI300
Average: 799
ES: 62
SD: 26.8
Force: 283
PF: 159
Velocities: 795, 768, 780, 823, 830
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.44"
Test Date: 02/11/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, CFEpistol, 6.8gr, CCI300
Average: 832
ES: 68
SD: 28.9
Force: 307
PF: 166
Velocities: 883, 815, 815, 820, 829
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.17"
Test Date: 02/11/2018

And following is the BE-86 load. Definitely shows some potential:


45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, BE86, 5.9gr, CCI300
Average: 772
ES: 25
SD: 9.3
Force: 265
PF: 154
Velocities: 757, 774, 776, 773, 782
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.95"
Test Date: 02/11/2018

 

[Walkalong]

If you could just get number five in the group.

Nice shooting.

 

[vaalpens]

If you could just get number five in the group.

Nice shooting.

Thanks. The problem is that I could see I had a good grouping going, but then the pressure to perform got to me since Walkalong indicated it was easy to find an accurate load with 45acp.

I think I am still getting comfortable with the new gun and this was the first time shooting it at 15 yards with a scope. This was a good enough beginning, but I am expecting better results once I start working up loads with the faster powders.

 

[Walkalong]

The problem is that I could see I had a good grouping going, but then the pressure to perform got to me

I do that all the time.

Just pickin' at ya. That's nice shooting.

 

[Dudedog]

I checked with vaalpens and he said it was ok to tag on to his thread. (thought I would ask first)
So some chrono numbers from my range tests.
5" .45 1911
Mixed range brass, WIN LP, charges as thrown after setting measure
(not sure I if I like the new Digital LInk software for Windows better than the old software)

(took of for the range and left my box of ladders on AA2 and HP38 on the bench......sigh)
Looking for something that makes major PF 165, but not a lot more.
1" squares on targets, 2 hands standing except for first RMR target.


Name Xtreme 200 SWC 5.3 AA2 1.20
Notes N/A
Number of Shots 4
Extreme Spread 28
Average 879
Standard Deviation 10
Power Factor Average 176
Power Factor Low 173
Power Factor High 179

Shot List Index Velocity Ft/Lbs Power Factor
Xtreme 200 SWC 5.3 AA2 1.20 1 885 348 177
Xtreme 200 SWC 5.3 AA2 1.20 2 876 341 175
Xtreme 200 SWC 5.3 AA2 1.20 3 893 354 179
Xtreme 200 SWC 5.3 AA2 1.20 4 865 332 173

A little more than I need to make 165 PF maybe somewhere around 5.0 gr

Name Xtreme 200 SWC 5.3 HP38 1.20
Notes N/A
Number of Shots 7
Extreme Spread 44
Average 825
Standard Deviation 13
Power Factor Average 165
Power Factor Low 161
Power Factor High 170

Shot List Index Velocity Ft/Lbs Power Factor
Xtreme 200 SWC 5.3 HP38 1.20 1 851 322 170
Xtreme 200 SWC 5.3 HP38 1.20 2 810 291 162
Xtreme 200 SWC 5.3 HP38 1.20 3 831 307 166
Xtreme 200 SWC 5.3 HP38 1.20 4 826 303 165
Xtreme 200 SWC 5.3 HP38 1.20 5 826 303 165
Xtreme 200 SWC 5.3 HP38 1.20 6 827 304 165
Xtreme 200 SWC 5.3 HP38 1.20 7 807 289 161

Right on the edge of 165 probably need 5.4-5.5gr

Name Xtreme 200 SWC 6.3 WSF 1.20
Notes N/A
Number of Shots 5
Extreme Spread 23
Average 887
Standard Deviation 9
Power Factor Average 177
Power Factor Low 175
Power Factor High 180

Shot List Index Velocity Ft/Lbs Power Factor
Xtreme 200 SWC 6.3 WSF 1.20 1 893 354 179
Xtreme 200 SWC 6.3 WSF 1.20 2 877 342 175
Xtreme 200 SWC 6.3 WSF 1.20 3 900 360 180
Xtreme 200 SWC 6.3 WSF 1.20 4 888 350 178
Xtreme 200 SWC 6.3 WSF 1.20 5 877 342 175

Quite a bit more than I needed for 165 PF, need to try 5.8-6

Name Xtreme 200 SWC 6.4 CFE-P 1.20
Notes N/A
Number of Shots 5
Extreme Spread 31
Average 857
Standard Deviation 12
Power Factor Average 171
Power Factor Low 167
Power Factor High 173

Shot List Index Velocity Ft/Lbs Power Factor
Xtreme 200 SWC 6.4 CFE-P 1.20 1 854 324 171
Xtreme 200 SWC 6.4 CFE-P 1.20 2 866 333 173
Xtreme 200 SWC 6.4 CFE-P 1.20 3 865 332 173
Xtreme 200 SWC 6.4 CFE-P 1.20 4 835 310 167
Xtreme 200 SWC 6.4 CFE-P 1.20 5 865 332 173

Pretty close to 165 PF, I could maybe go 6.3

Name RMR 230 RN-NEW 5.0 AA2
Notes N/A
Number of Shots 4
Extreme Spread 27
Average 753
Standard Deviation 11
Power Factor Average 173
Power Factor Low 169
Power Factor High 175

Shot List Index Velocity Ft/Lbs Power Factor
RMR 230 RN-NEW 5.0 AA2 1 759 294 175
RMR 230 RN-NEW 5.0 AA2 2 761 296 175
RMR 230 RN-NEW 5.0 AA2 3 758 293 174
RMR 230 RN-NEW 5.0 AA2 4 734 275 169



Targets at 7 yards

 

[Dudedog]

OAL on all the Xtremes 1.20
On the "New" RMR 230 Plated RNs OAL 1.27
(longer OAL then the old RMR 230 RNs which were a differnet shape and need to be about 1.21)
The new RMR RNs are a different shape than the old ones with the blunt nose.
No work up on them just one of my "works well with 230 RN loads" 5gr AA#2.
This load shot well, and was a bit higher than my target PF of 165 (major)
Need to try 4.7, 4.8, 4.9 to see if they shot well also.

Xtreme loads were all so so not great not bad, I need to do more work with these bullets.
Still leaning towards the new RMR 230 RNs as my go to .45 bullet. They seem to shot as good as I am capable of shooting.
(looking for something to replace the old RMR blunt nosed 230 RNs which are no longer available)

First RMR picture was using my "shakey" table and rest.
Really nervous I was going to mess up the freehand one took 3 tries to get it!
1 ok, 2 touching, 3 touching-getting nervous, 4 whew ok, should I shot #5 or quit while I ahead? Shot it. Deep breath, sigh of relief

 

[vaalpens]

Dudedog, thanks for adding some good results to this thread. Now I can see it is not that difficult to get an accurate 45acp load. I am probably just lagging behind a bit.

So some chrono numbers from my range tests.
5" .45 1911

I wonder how much more velocity you get with the additional .4" barrel length. I will have to test the same HP-38 or CFE-P load using the 200gr SWC bullet so we can compare.

The SWC bullet seems to produce higher velocities compared to the round nose of flat point bullets. It must be that is is seated a bit deeper. With the COL I use, the SWC is seated about .06" deeper than the RS bullet. With my Longshot load the SWC showed nearly 50fps more for the same load.

First RMR picture was using my "shakey" table and rest.
Really nervous I was going to mess up the freehand one took 3 tries to get it!
1 ok, 2 touching, 3 touching-getting nervous, 4 whew ok, should I shot #5 or quit while I ahead? Shot it. Deep breath, sigh of relief

Excellent shooting and demonstrated that you can put the 5th round in the same hole even with the added pressure.

 

[Dudedog]

Excellent shooting and demonstrated that you can put the 5th round in the same hole even with the added pressure.

Thanks some one good, some not as good,
It just took 3 tries to get the good one.

As just a rough guess i would say probably about 30ft sec.
If I remember correctly the WIN LPs are about 10-15fps hotter than CCIs.
I need to do some more work on the plated wad cutters, they didn't seem to work as well for me a coated MBCs or ACMEs
I believe I can get better rewsults with them I just need to find the load.
Maybe a faster powder than HP38/AA2 say Titegroup,Promo/Reddot,Bullseye, Nitro 100 or WST,
WST seems to be popular, may see if I can pick some of it or sport pistol in town.
Need to order some more of the RMRs.

 

[vaalpens]

Well it is time to share some testing results again. In another thread the new SportPistol in 45ACP are being debated, so i will probably share these results in the other thread also. I will keep on posting to this "bigness" thread until I have at least gone through all my planned load workup and testing.

The SportPistol loads were not in my initial planning, but I decided to move it up in the plan to see what all the hoopla is all about. Based on my results, it seems that SportPistol works very well in 45acp.

Following are my test results, all tested at 15yards using a rest:

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: S&B
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, SportPistol, 5.2gr, CCI300
Average: 762
ES: 77
SD: 31.1
Force: 258
PF: 152
Velocities: 754, 789, 774, 783, 712
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.11"
Test Date: 03/04/2018


45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: S&B
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, SportPistol, 5.3gr, CCI300
Average: 771
ES: 72
SD: 31
Force: 264
PF: 154
Velocities: 771, 796, 807, 746, 735
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.53"
Test Date: 03/04/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: S&B
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, SportPistol, 5.4gr, CCI300
Average: 815
ES: 51
SD: 19.6
Force: 295
PF: 163
Velocities: 787, 838, 815, 810, 829
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.49"
Test Date: 03/04/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: S&B
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, SportPistol, 5.5gr, CCI300
Average: 800
ES: 87
SD: 31.3
Force: 284
PF: 160
Velocities: 850, 794, 795, 800, 763
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.62"
Test Date: 03/04/2018


45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: S&B
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, SportPistol, 5.6gr, CCI300
Average: 814
ES: 33
SD: 13.9
Force: 294
PF: 162
Velocities: 828, 795, 810, 828, 812
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.51"
Test Date: 03/04/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: S&B
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, SportPistol, 5.7gr, CCI300
Average: 789
ES: 116
SD: 42.8
Force: 276
PF: 157
Velocities: 846, 806, 772, 730, 792
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.39"
Test Date: 03/04/2018

 

[vaalpens]

The BE-86 loads in 45acp were also tested today. Even though these have a lower load number, I tested them after the SportPistol loads. After the good results in SportPistol, I was disapointed with the BE-86 groupings since it seems the grouping just did not want to tighten up. At some point I thought maybe I had an issue with the scope or mount, but everything checked out. At least finally on the last load the grouping tighten up. It seems with BE-86 I will have to increase the charge a bit more just to verify how it performs at higher pressure. The chrono numbers are not great, so additional pressure will probably help. Following are the test results, tested at 15 yards using a rest:

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, BE86, 5.8gr, CCI300
Average: 714
ES: 43
SD: 18.8
Force: 226
PF: 142
Velocities: 741, 726, 698, 706, 699
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.36"
Test Date: 03/04/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, BE86, 5.9gr, CCI300
Average: 726
ES: 37
SD: 13.5
Force: 234
PF: 145
Velocities: 726, 745, 730, 721, 708
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.19"
Test Date: 03/04/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, BE86, 6gr, CCI300
Average: 739
ES: 49
SD: 19.5
Force: 242
PF: 147
Velocities: 745, 724, 720, 769, 738
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.84"
Test Date: 03/04/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, BE86, 6.1gr, CCI300
Average: 736
ES: 33
SD: 13.3
Force: 241
PF: 147
Velocities: 756, 731, 728, 743, 723
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.1"
Test Date: 03/04/2018

45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, BE86, 6.2gr, CCI300
Average: 771
ES: 42
SD: 16.7
Force: 264
PF: 154
Velocities: 761, 782, 794, 768, 752
Grouping @ 15yd: 1.11"
Test Date: 03/04/2018


45acp, P220, 4.4"
Case: Federal
COL: 1.175"
Berrys, 200gr, RS, BE86, 6.3gr, CCI300
Average: 780
ES: 49
SD: 19.3
Force: 270
PF: 156
Velocities: 760, 765, 783, 784, 809
Grouping @ 15yd: 0.56"
Test Date: 03/04/2018

 

[vaalpens]

I am in the process now of preparing my next set of loads with different powders. These will probably be the last loads that I will test, before selecting the powders for the Xtreme 200 gr SWC bullets I received from Dudedog. My current plan is to go with HP-38 and Bullseye.

The HP-39 loads will be the same as the SportPistol loads so that I can compare the two against each other. The loads will be 6 loads from 5.2gr to 5.7gr with a COL of 1.175" using the Berry's 200gr RS bullets.

The Bulleye loads currently are planned for 6 loads from 4.6gr to 5.1gr with a COL of 1.175" using the Berry's 200gr RS bullets. I still need to do a bit more research before finally deciding on the range.

At the moment I am leaning towards SportPistol for the SWC bullets, and then maybe between BE-86 and Bullseye. I think HP-38 and SportPistol are similar, so I will probably just pick one of them. I still have PowerPistol and Longshot loads to create also, but I'm not sure I want to use them for the SWC's, so I will probably test those load at a later date.

 

[Walkalong]

I don't remember, do you have any WST? I guess I should try it in .45 ACP myself. It gets good press there. Maybe a WST vs Sport Pistol shoot out.