I shot a 1911 today, and I don't know what to think of it...

[GregGry]

I rented a 1911 with my buddy today, at a range in ILL. It was a single stack, single action, (it had a 8 round magazine) kimber, I don't remember what model, it had the fullsize 5 inch barrel. I must say that I really do love the 1911 design, it has everything I want. The trigger was very nice, the weight and size is nice, the recoil is cream puff like, my list goes on and on. Although its grip did not fit my hands (like a para ord double stack )

I did however experiance many stove pipes, which happened at random times, however almost always at 3 to 5 rounds. I put atleast 80 rounds through it, of 3 diffrent kinds of ammo (Rem. UMC, Blazer brass, and some PMC), and experianced atleast 8 stove pipes, some with each brand of ammo. I am curious to know what could have been the problem. Obviously being a range gun I didn't break it down and check it out, although I probably should have. The magazine spring seemed to be a bit weak. I have never loaded a 1911 mag before, but compared to every other .45acp mag I have loaded (CZ, Glock, SIG, etc) the rounds were really easy to put in.

For not having dot sights, or night sites (just the standard all black type) I was able to do 1 inch three shot groups with my bad eye. My contact was screwed up in my right eye (I am a right eye right hand shooter) so I had to resort to left eye. I typically shot to the right of center mass on the target, due to using my weaker eye. I am impressed with its capabilities, however the total lack of reliability makes me wonder what was up.

The magazine looked like a wilson, except the cutawys to see the rounds are bigger, if I remember right (I did not inspect the magazine for brand ) I tried loading it with 7 rounds, and still had issues. I changed how I was holding it, and it didn't make a diffrence. If anything it seemed like a firm grip made it more prone to stove pipe, then if I limp wristed it. My buddy didn't have nearly as many stove pipes as I did, he was not holding it as firmly as I was however. So what do you guys think? I figure it had a weak magazine spring, (I only had one magazine to work with) and possibly the extractor had issues. I didn't inspect the brass, which I regret. Your opinions would be apperciated

Also, one thing I want to mention, is that the double stack 1911, with fatter grips then stock fits my hand like a glove. I am sold on owning a 1911 soon, however my confidence is somewhat low with them because of the recent rental. I have shot many .45 acp pistols, and I have never had a stove pipe before, be it a glock, sig, Hk, CZ, etc.

 

[Zundfolge]

One thing to consider is that a rental gun has been shot a lot, and may not have been well cared for.

If you like a fatter grip, you can always buy fatter grip pannels to put on a single stack 1911 (since you're going to get mixed reviews on the Para Ordnance offerings).

Or just drop the major coin for an STI

 

[Black Majik]

ditto,

range guns dont account for many of the great guns out there. Range guns aren't cleaned NEARLY as often as us fanatics clean our firerams, they're for the most part abused heavily. Plus, most of the range guns have more rounds thru it in half a year than many people put thru their guns in their lifetime.

Quite honestly, try a personal gun, someone's gun that is well taken care of. You'll be impressed of the true potential of a working 1911.

Lastly, hogue fingergrooved grips help a lot of people with larger hands from what I hear.

Don't make your decision on the 1911 platform based on a overshot, abused and used 1911.

 

[dsk]

Sounds like it was a Series II with the external extractor.

 

[GregGry]

Ohh yes, trust me, I have certainly not written off a 1911s because of the range rental. Its just that I found it really sad that it had to be a 1911 that had my first failure of any kind in .45 acp, and not only my first but first through 8th+. It was the first time I rented anything from the range I did, and judging by the finish on the gun (or lack of finish on many parts of it, like the trigger was part grey, part shiny because of how much it had been wore), I am sure it has been well used, and poorly taken care of. Since the magazine springs seemed light (or is that just how 1911s are?) I am sure that didn't help. For all I know the extractor claw was almost gone, thats a possibility. I wish I would have checked the brass for signs, and the extractor as well.

I really love the size of the double stack, and the weight. I have heard they aren't the most reliable pistols, and I am willing to deal with that (I would have a double stack as a fun range gun). To me the 1911 has everything I want, I just need to fire one thats decent to be sold on it. I mean I can get pretty much anything to work if I try, and I am sure a 1911 wouldn't be to hard for me to tackle.

Also, I wanted to add a little bit more info on some of the stove pipes I was getting. Two or three times it seemed like the brass was pulled out of the barrel, however it was not thrown out of the ejection port. It stayed in when the slide came back to shut, causing the top round in the magazine to get caught on the feed ramp. I had to drop the magazine out (caught round fell out), rack the slide, and put the magazine back in to get it to work again. My guess that what caused it was one of three things (and I am no expert, I am just using logic here) Is that either the magazine spring was too weak, or the slide spring was a heavy rated one, which caused problems with the light loaded range ammo I was using. Or the extractor claw had poor tension/had a chunk missing.

I am going to go to my favorite gun store thats actually in my state, and close to my house. Their range guns always work for me, and they have a awesome selection to shoot. I am sure I could get a working 1911 there to rent, and with a working contact in my right eye, I bet I could put 7 rounds on center mass, within a 3 inch circle (at 21 feet, two hand hold). Considering with the kimber I was doing 2 and three round hits that were so close they looked like 1 or two hits, the unreliable kimber helped me set a record for personal best groupings. I could have probably done as good with the CZ97b that I had, however I had to sell it due to $$ issues (I still am kicking myself). I would get another CZ97, but the 1911 has an aftermarket support that is unreal compared to the CZ97. Ok well I am done rambling..

 

[GregGry]

Sounds like it was a Series II with the external extractor.

I looked on Kimbers website, and I didn't see the exact model I fired. What I know is that it was full size, it had a matte grey finish (even the trigger was finished grey), 3 hole trigger, fixed sights with no white dots, and as far as I know it had an internal extractor. That line I have seen that can be cut on the slide at the bottom of the ejection port, was not present (I am unfamiliar as to how the external extractor on the 1911 works, but all of them that claim to have the external extractor seem to have that line). I am sure it was an El cheapo model, why would the shop rent out something thats 1,300+ dollars just to have it mangled up in a day. Any ideas as to what model it was?

 

[Black Majik]

I looked on Kimbers website, and I didn't see the exact model I fired. What I know is that it was full size, it had a matte grey finish (even the trigger was finished grey), 3 hole trigger, fixed sights with no white dots, and as far as I know it had an internal extractor. That line I have seen that can be cut on the slide at the bottom of the ejection port, was not present (I am unfamiliar as to how the external extractor on the 1911 works, but all of them that claim to have the external extractor seem to have that line). I am sure it was an El cheapo model, why would the shop rent out something thats 1,300+ dollars just to have it mangled up in a day. Any ideas as to what model it was?

Hmm... it was possibly a Stainless Custom II. The stainless finish is more of a matte silverish/gray finish. Fixed sights, and no checkered frontstrap.

If the frontstrap is checkered and it has nightsights, then it would be a stainless TLE, though I doubt a range would have a TLE has a range gun when the basic Customs are available.

 

[idahoberetta9000s]

I know what to think of it... RUN, RUN, while you still can!

 

[Stasher1]

The magazine looked like a wilson, except the cutawys to see the rounds are bigger, if I remember right (I did not inspect the magazine for brand...

FWIW, Wilson mags don't have round witness holes. They have slots cut up the side. If the mag you used had larger than normal round holes, it was probably a Chip McCormick.

Wilson mags:

Chip McCormick mags:

"Normal" 1911 mags:

 

[Zach S]

If you're ever in my area I'll let you shoot my one of my kimbers, they work.

(I am unfamiliar as to how the external extractor on the 1911 works).

So is kimber...

Range guns aren't cleaned NEARLY as often as us fanatics clean our firerams...

You should see my carry gun...

 

[jerkface11]

Maybe you should wait on buying one. CZ just bought dan wesson. So maybe there will be a CZ 1911. Or at least a CZ 97 dressed up like one.

 

[GregGry]

FWIW, Wilson mags don't have round witness holes. They have slots cut up the side. If the mag you used had larger than normal round holes, it was probably a Chip McCormick.

Wilson mags:

Chip McCormick mags:

"Normal" 1911 mags:

The mags looked like the wilson, except the slots were cut bigger. Atleast from the picture of the wilson mag I would say they were bigger.

 

[DAVE RICHARDS]

Zach S, "and so is Kimber...". LMFAO! +1 to that.

 

[f4t9r]

You Kimber bashers are killing me

Mine works fine , Good Company with great support

 

[Glockfan.45]

My first time shooting a 1911 was bad as well. I shot a rented Springfield Mil Spec and it went something like this "bang...bang...bang/stovepipe.......bang.........misfeed.......bang/stovepipe. I went through 100 rounds this way. I did however have a little faith in the design and chalked this up to a crappy rental gun with 10million rounds throught it, no cleanings other than wiping the muzzle off, and lots of abuse. I purchased a Kimber later and the only trouble I ever get out of it is when trying to shoot Blazer Brass. Some of their bullets are seated too deep and will misfeed, but it will run Winchester, and Remington 100%.

 

[Walkalong]

You Kimber bashers are killing me

My two Kimbers are superb, but the external extractor in my 4" CDP had to be redone. Kimber flunked external extractors. They will make it right, however, so not to worry about that. All 4 kimbers I have had my hands on, two new,two used, have been serious accurate. If you know someone who dislikes his Kimber, buy it cheap and grin all the way home.

 

[Skywarp]

I know this isnt gonna sit well but.....


A dirty range gun should still perform near optimum. I shoot my weapons filthy then put them away tro pick up where I left off. Im not a SEAL, operator,swart, hrt or any other ninja type but I have this thing in my head that says if it doesnt work right in less than ideal conditions than do I really want it.

I applied this to my first 1911. I ran it to 2K rounds without it being taken apart, lubed beyond some CLP on the viusible rail, or cleaned in any way. She kept rockin all the way up save a few ammo issues (squib load, worn out rim on brass). Im happy she did well I really didnt want to get rid of her after such an easy test (the sigs did the same thing earlier , in fact i cant remember when they were last cleaned)

 

[HSMITH]

I see some range guns with literally tens of thousands of rounds on them with no cleaning. All of the ammo through them was the filthy nasty cheap ammo sold at the range. They won't run, and I don't know how to find fault with the gun.

I agree that a gun should run very dirty, but there is a limit to how much crud can build up in spaces and parts not designed to operate with crud in them.

 

[doubleg]

Trust me.. Get a Kimber Stainless II with white dot sights and you will be a very happy person.

 

[shaggycat]

My Custom Target II has experienced no "break in" period and has shot accurately and reliably from the first round chambered. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Old Fuff]

Going back over a half-century...

I remember firing my first 1911 pistol. It was a REAL 1911A1 made by Ithaca during World War Two. From git-go it never missed a beat. A few years later I traded it in for a Colt Commercial and a .22 Conversion Unit.

At the time I traded the Ithaca in (big mistake as it turned out) it still hadn't failed to run with complete reliability. The Commercial Colt did the same, and I still have it. Can't say the same about the .22 unit though. Fifty rounds or so would lead up the floating chamber and jams became a way of life.

The USGI pistols were made to function in all kinds of circumstances, lubricated or not, powder fouled, whatever.

The ones they make today are big boy toys, not service pistols. Some run, many don't. You will have to look long and hard to find any threads on this forum where someone is complaining that their original USGI or pre-1965 Colt won't run. It would seem that there are relatively few complaints about later production, full-sized Colt's going up to this day.

Maybe there is a message somewhere in this...

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Somehow my Springfield Armory TRP has managed to get through well over a thousand round from the day it was factory new to today without a single misstep of any sort. Now I don't drop it the mud and then shoot it, so I cannot comment on that part, but under normal concealed carry conditions, it is completely trustworthy.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Other than being a range rental the problem was probably the magazine.

I have four Kimbers. The Chip McCormick mags are the only ones I've had trouble with.

 

[DogBonz]

1+ on what everyone else said

Range guns are beaten like the proverbial red-headed step child. My range had a rental SIG226 in 9mm that was a police trade in, so you know that it had a hard life to begin with, but also was for rent for years. God only knows how many rounds that thing had through it, and it was always dirty, and I often saw it fail to either fire or feed. Now we all know that the 226 is about one of the most reliable autos ever made, but when a machine is not maintained it will fail.

 

[wooderson]

Range guns aren't cleaned NEARLY as often as us fanatics clean our firerams, they're for the most part abused heavily.

I found the former clause shocking the first time I went to a range to rent a gun. My assumption was that range guns would be thoroughly cleaned regularly - since at this specific place the range master just sits behind a counter and takes information whenever someone comes in. (Indoors, all CCTV) Not like the guy has anything else to do.

No such luck.