A simple graphic of how chokes pattern shot looked interesting.
https://www.fieldandstream.com/guns...jGqf19-w45PPbzigMcWOpjUtNfz6T1U06iFLDGyh0Oz84
https://www.fieldandstream.com/guns...jGqf19-w45PPbzigMcWOpjUtNfz6T1U06iFLDGyh0Oz84
I suppose everyone in Shotgun knows this, but...
- Thread starter hso
- Start date
As a general explanation of choke behavior, the illustration is ok. Hardness of shot, barrel quality, and a dozen other factors can change a "choke" by a degree or more.
The only way to tell what your choke really is is to pattern it at 40 yards, count the holes in the 30" circle that encompasses the most holes, divide that number by the number of pellets you shot, multiply by 100 and get %age.
I've got a modified barrel that patterns 78% with STS 8s. I have a full that struggles to get 65% with anything.
The only way to tell what your choke really is is to pattern it at 40 yards, count the holes in the 30" circle that encompasses the most holes, divide that number by the number of pellets you shot, multiply by 100 and get %age.
I've got a modified barrel that patterns 78% with STS 8s. I have a full that struggles to get 65% with anything.
Milkmaster
Member
One thing you might think about is the age of the graph. For instance, I find that modern shot cup ammo patterns generally a little tighter than old cardboard disc ammo from my youth. Seems to be about one choke level difference. For instance, what used to take a full choke for me patterns now about the same with a modified. As has been said, pattern your gun and know what your results will be ahead of time.
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^^^ Very true. IME, pattern-testing a shotgun to see what's actually happening with the pattern size and shot distribution within the pattern is essential for each load that I use for any purpose other than casual plinking.
It's also important to me to know if the gun shoots to POA. I see a surprising percentage of guns in magazine tests that are off by so much that I'd have no interest in owning that individual gun, even if it really appealed to me otherwise.
And related, that's one of the big advantages of loading your own shotgun shells. You can work with the variables of shot size, shot quantity (weight), muzzle velocity, and especially the wad, and dramatically alter the pattern on a given gun or choke tube. I consider load testing to be as important for a shotgun as for a rifle (whether factory loads or hand loads).
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In my Auto 5 with Colonial Sporting Clay screw-in chokes, the cheap loads without shot cup style wad (such as some of the S&B), pattern almost 2X the diameter at 15-20 yards than loads with the standard type plastic shot cup. Then beyond that, Federal Flite Control loads tightens the pattern quite a bit more than the standard plastic cup.
I assume the above is the case with my other shotguns, but I've never actually patterned the cheap, no-shot-cup loads in those.
A bit of an over simplification. But still a good graphic nonetheless.
I'm about 15 years behind you but took the opposite approach years ago. Unless I'm turkey hunting, I almost never use anything but Improved Cylinder. The wider pattern up close increases my hit ratio at shots inside 25 yards. I can't hit 'em much farther with any choke so I either pass on those shots or send a load downrange with a prayer. Sometimes I get lucky.
I'm about 15 years behind you but took the opposite approach years ago. Unless I'm turkey hunting, I almost never use anything but Improved Cylinder. The wider pattern up close increases my hit ratio at shots inside 25 yards. I can't hit 'em much farther with any choke so I either pass on those shots or send a load downrange with a prayer. Sometimes I get lucky.
entropy
Member
I'd like to expound on patterning. There are two reasons to pattern. Point of impact and pattern density. They are done differently. POI testing ( it isn't really patterning in one sense) is best done at 13 yards. Why 13 yards? Because it translates to @ 35-40 yards by multiplying by three, with much less walking. e.g, using Kraft paper or 3'x3' cardboard, put an aiming point about 2/3 down from the top of it. Firing from the bench will tell you how the gun itself is hitting ( do this first), firing off hand will tell you how you hit with that gun. (nice to know)
Say the center of the pattern (which is easier to find due to being smaller) is 3" up and 1" to the left. This translates to the center of your pattern hitting 9" above the point of aim .(a good thing for Trap, less so for Skeet & Sporting Clays. ) It also means your pattern center is 3" to the left. Not a huge difference, and for a hunting might be fine as is. For the clays games, adjusting your mount, or the comb if adjustable, will cause less lost birds and chippers. (sure, they count, but smokeballing clays is a definite confidence booster)
I used those numbers because that's where my trap gun shot when I got it. I was satisfied with the 3" up, but, I adjusted the comb so it was centered horizontally 9" above the POA. I just shot a 21 an hour ago, and those were all smokeballs , so I know the gun is on, the lost birds were on me.
Patterning at 20, 30 or whatever yardage yo usually shoot clays or game at, is just that, finding out what your pattern looks like at those ranges. This can be as simple or complex as you want it to be. For those who like complex, read Neil Winston's extensive research on it. I spent two hours watching him pattern different loads, and learned more about shotgunning in those two hours than I had up to then.
I will touch on one more thing in patterning. The Hot Core. This is the circle 20" in diameter with the point of aim as it's center. There reason why I pay attention to it is many clay gamers believe this is the zone where clays are vaporized, smokeballed, inkballed. Shot density peters out quickly between the 20" and 30" circles on a patterning board at 30 yards and beyond, no matter the choke.
Say the center of the pattern (which is easier to find due to being smaller) is 3" up and 1" to the left. This translates to the center of your pattern hitting 9" above the point of aim .(a good thing for Trap, less so for Skeet & Sporting Clays. ) It also means your pattern center is 3" to the left. Not a huge difference, and for a hunting might be fine as is. For the clays games, adjusting your mount, or the comb if adjustable, will cause less lost birds and chippers. (sure, they count, but smokeballing clays is a definite confidence booster)
I used those numbers because that's where my trap gun shot when I got it. I was satisfied with the 3" up, but, I adjusted the comb so it was centered horizontally 9" above the POA. I just shot a 21 an hour ago, and those were all smokeballs , so I know the gun is on, the lost birds were on me.
Patterning at 20, 30 or whatever yardage yo usually shoot clays or game at, is just that, finding out what your pattern looks like at those ranges. This can be as simple or complex as you want it to be. For those who like complex, read Neil Winston's extensive research on it. I spent two hours watching him pattern different loads, and learned more about shotgunning in those two hours than I had up to then.
I will touch on one more thing in patterning. The Hot Core. This is the circle 20" in diameter with the point of aim as it's center. There reason why I pay attention to it is many clay gamers believe this is the zone where clays are vaporized, smokeballed, inkballed. Shot density peters out quickly between the 20" and 30" circles on a patterning board at 30 yards and beyond, no matter the choke.
Savage30L
Member
I shoot improved cylinder for everything (except with buckshot for deer, which I haven't had a chance to use in 25 years anyway). Modern loads are so much more efficient than the loads our grampas used that you can choke up too much pretty easily.
Roverguy
Member
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2021
- Messages
- 884
You and I may well be hung, drawn, and quartered but I agree. In a modern gun using modern good quality ammo, the tightest choke that I find effective is IM. Even with cheap target loads (Estate for example) an F choke tends to produce patchy patterns at 40 yards. I think it’s because shot cups deliver tighter patterns anyway than was the case with felt wad shells.
entropy
Member
No, it's because cheap shells like the promo Estates you mention have cheap shot in them. That is, very soft shot that is cheap to produce. STS used to be the best shot available for reloading, but now the only way to get it is buying Remington STS and Nitro 27 or Nitro Gold shells. (Though I've heard rumours of it also being loaded in the Federal HOA shells)
Neil Winston, and his protege Tim Bruggemann have done extensive research on effective patterns vs. quality of shot. It clearly points out that top quality components make top quality shells. 6% antimony hardened lead shot produces more effective and consistent patterns, all other variables being equal.
BTW, a lot of those cheap promo shells use wad bases and shot 'wraps', a piece of thin plastic wrapped around the shot in the hull. Quality designed one piece wads make a lot of difference in patterning also.
