I was almost involved in 2 shootings (part 1 of 2)

[CajunBass]

As for your AAR Eric I'm POSITIVE you panicked, Let's see first fire fight, no clear idea what was going on , probably felt trapped in the john. What the HELL else were you supposed to do?

But you overcame the initial panic formulated a plan and implemented it. Good job I haven't read your 2nd thread but I bet you implemented lessons learned.

I hate to just "+1" that, but there really isn't much more I can add.

Praise God you weren't injured.

 

[bsf]

Just my $0.02

…………….I immediately retreated into the mens room and drew my 1911 knocked the safety off and made sure I had one in the tube………………

My lessons learned.1. Find a safe defendable spot and stay there 2.just keep the gun loaded and then you wont have to worry about checking 3.if you can escape safely then do so. 4. In a situation like that holster your gun before you run by folks with a gun in your hand especially when you can see the shooting was over (one guy had a head shot and he was done)

I read both of the OP in the related threads. Why are you disengaging the safety prior to having the sights on the threat? If you would not carry that 1911 cocked and unlocked in your pants, why are you walking around with it cocked and unlocked when in your hand and not pointed at a threat?

IMO having the 1911 holstered while you were escaping may not have been the best move. You only thought the threats were eliminated/gone. Did you know for sure? Maybe this is a situation where position sul would shine. You need to move without sweeping non-combatants and you really do not want to be flashing your handgun. Then again, if you are wrong about the threats, it sure would be nice to have the handgun in play as quickly as possible. In fact, this is exactly the type of scenario one of my instructors covered as a good time to use position sul.

 

[Eric F]

I read both of the OP in the related threads. Why are you disengaging the safety prior to having the sights on the threat?

The safety-I have trained and practiced with this mentality. If you are going to shoot or have a chance to shoot then shoot dont knock the safety off. What I mean by that is I had determined a threat was present and I need to be ready to shoot not be ready to take the safety off. With all firearms the last safety is the decision to shoot. On any gun to me the safety is there only to prevent inadvertant fire while your finger is not on the trigger. Again it is how I play and train. In IDPA(if you shoot it) to you point your 1911 at the target and then take the safety off? NO! the safety comes off as you draw and move the gun to a fireing position.

If you would not carry that 1911 cocked and unlocked in your pants, why are you walking around with it cocked and unlocked when in your hand and not pointed at a threat?

I do carry my gun cocked and locked all the time hence the reason I took the safety off to make sure I had one in the chamber. For reasons I can not explain I jusd did it. I was in a restroom with walls between me and the shooters. I have thought of this several times and the only explination I could come up with is when I load for a match(idpa uspsa ect) I rack the slide and then pull the slide back again slightly to varify I have loaded a round into the chamber. I can only guess I did this out of practice and because I felt I had time to make sure. After all how bad is it going to be when you have to shoot and you get a click because you have an empty chamber? Again the only thing I can reason is habit. There wasnt a mental process to it I just did it.

You need to move without sweeping non-combatants and you really do not want to be flashing your handgun.

I understand what you are saying however I did not ever sweep any one nor was I exactly flashing my gun. I was making a direct line to my car and happened to pass a few folks on the way. HAd the cops been there that fast would have shocked me into an imeadiate and life ending heart attack making me a non threat any way. This place is "in the sticks" and cops are rarely in this area. Also had I seen a cop there my reaction might have been diffrent, I dont know for sure but I might have stayed put for a while longer and just simply walked to my car and left after I felt a bit safer. Tough call, I am a firm beleiver in you never know what your gonna do when stress levels go through the roof.

I know I feel a lot better sharing with my friends here than second guessing every decision I made. I do second guess a couple of them but not all.

 

[Mr White]

You did the right thing, cept maybe for running thru the parking lot with your 1911 in your hand. Had the cops been there already, you coulda been in a world of hurt.

Let me add a twist to the scenario. How would we armchair commandos have handled this?

Same scenario but your wife and kids are in the car. You're in the bathroom and the scene unfolds like above. Do you do anything differently?

 

[WC145]

I think you did a fine job. You maintained your composure, kept control of your weapon, and stayed out of sight until you were reasonably sure you could get out of there safely. Also (and maybe most importantly), you didn't panic and do anything to get yourself shot. Good job!

2.just keep the gun loaded and then you wont have to worry about checking

This is why, unless I am cleaning or inspecting my carry guns, they are always loaded. In spite of knowing that I also double check before it goes in the holster. If I have to draw it I want it ready.

 

[Robby]

"Let me add a twist to the scenario. How would we armchair commandos have handled this?"

"Same scenario but your wife and kids are in the car. You're in the bathroom and the scene unfolds like above. Do you do anything differently?
__________________"

You better believe you or I would do it differently! My kid is 40, medically retired LEO, armed!! I would keep my head down, and when he stopped firing come out and cover his six. He would be telling me to stay put!! Yeah I know him that well.

 

[Cosmoline]

I can arm-chair quarterback the "wisdom" of going out with a handgun exposed. Very well could have got you shot.

Why in hades would you HOLSTER a firearm after the shooting has started? If you do become a target, you're toast. I think he did fine. After the bullets are flying, the place for your firearm is in your hand ready to go. Otherwise what's the point of being armed in the first place?

cept maybe for running thru the parking lot with your 1911 in your hand. Had the cops been there already, you coulda been in a world of hurt.

And if he holstered it and become a target of the shooter, he would have been killed! The cops aren't going to blast everyone, and if they appear you can toss iron and throw your hands up.

WHAT IS THE POINT OF GOING ARMED IF YOU ARE JUST GOING TO KEEP THE THING PUT AWAY EVEN IN THE MIDDLE OF A SHOOTOUT?

He felt the need to escape to his own vehicle and get out of there. Having not been there I won't second guess that. He had no way of knowing if this was a massacre. The ONLY proper way to make that exit was with a firearm IN HAND READY TO FIRE. Preferably a large rifle, but barring that a handgun with a round chambered and no #@#% safety engaged. If you do have to defend yourself in such a situation, you will have NO TIME to PUTZ AROUND trying to re-draw your firearm, disengage the safety, aim, etc. You need to be ready NOW. INSTANTLY. I cannot over-emphasize how fast these things happen. So in that respect the OP was right on the money. Some of the rest of you are smoking dangerous substances.

 

[kingjoey]

Sounds like you pretty much panicked.

I take it that you've never been shot at. Anything you do while getting shot at will be some form of panic. Training and experience makes you perform at a "controlled" panic level, but you still aren't going to be acting normally. If you think that someone is going to react like you see in the movies or like you see on the IPSC course then you have another thing coming. A movie set or IPSC course doesn't include bullets hitting in close proximity to you or tugging at your clothes as they pass by

 

[Cosmoline]

I understand what you are saying however I did not ever sweep any one nor was I exactly flashing my gun. I was making a direct line to my car and happened to pass a few folks on the way.

Don't worry about it, you did fine. The shooting had started. The place for your firearm was in your hand unless and until a cop appeared to take charge. Plenty of CCW holders have been gunned down because they feared "brandishing" or appearing to be the bad guy. You did the right thing. A shootout is not a range. Obsessive concern for the four rules can get you killed. If you read them literally, you can never draw at all outside a range because you may be covering things (houses cars, buildings) that you do not intend to destroy.

 

[Treo]

Let me add a twist to the scenario. How would we armchair commandos have handled this?"

I'm more of an internet warrior than a armchair commando, but I'd still like to play.
DW packs just as hard as I do so running up to her car during a fire fight might be really BAD JU- JU. Given I'm gonna have to clean my pants after it's all over the John is probably a good place to stay.

Seriously I'd stay put use the cell phone & tell DW to hit the ground running. (I.E leave). then I'd do every thing I could to avoid becoming a witness. "I didn't see anything officer, I was in the bathroom & it seemed best to stay put. Can I leave now?"

 

[bsf]

........Again it is how I play and train. In IDPA(if you shoot it) to you point your 1911 at the target and then take the safety off? NO! the safety comes off as you draw and move the gun to a fireing position.

I do not game, but yes, I wait until the muzzle is pointed at the threat. I normally disengage a handgun safety after the two hands have been brought together and the handgun is being pushed straight out at the threat. Disengagement can occur at any point during the draw when the muzzle is directed at the threat. So, w/ a strong side IWB holster, it could occur as soon as the gun is rotated to the threat, which if necessary could be w/ a one handed grip firing from the side of the rib-cage. Never in my limited instruction can I remember being told to disengage the safety in anticipation of a threat prior to that. I flat out think you are wrong and are participating in and supporting unsafe gun-handling. If your handgun does not have a frame- or slide-mounted manual safety, so be it. There is not anything wrong w/ that in my opinion if the 4 Rules are followed. If you do have one, especially w/ the light trigger pull of a SA gun, why not use it properly. If you do not want to use it properly, why not get a gun w/ no manual safety?

That being said, I agree the final safety is your trigger finger and mind. In addition, I really do not care what you do as long as it is not being done around me or anyone I care about. Glad you emerged from the shooting unscathed.

 

[Cosmoline]

If your 1911 has such a light trigger that it is unsafe to carry or manipulate without the safety engaged, get a heavier trigger or a different firearm. You need to be able to hold it on a threat without firing if they give up, and you cannot have the thing going off at that point. It would be negligent homicide. Nor do you want to be putzing around with some safety toggle in the middle of a shootout.

 

[Sistema1927]

You survived, you learned, and we all get an opportunity to learn from your experience.

 

[bsf]

I understand what you are saying however I did not ever sweep any one nor was I exactly flashing my gun. I was making a direct line to my car and happened to pass a few folks on the way. HAd the cops been there that fast would have shocked me into an imeadiate and life ending heart attack making me a non threat any way. This place is "in the sticks" and cops are rarely in this area. Also had I seen a cop there my reaction might have been diffrent, I dont know for sure but I might have stayed put for a while longer and just simply walked to my car and left after I felt a bit safer. Tough call, I am a firm beleiver in you never know what your gonna do when stress levels go through the roof.

I know I feel a lot better sharing with my friends here than second guessing every decision I made. I do second guess a couple of them but not all.

No, you do not understand what I am saying. I am basically saying that I agree w/ your decision to not re-holster. I never said you swept non-combatants nor meant to imply you may have. I was simply presenting position sul as an option to achieve readiness, a little discretion, and avoid sweeping non-combatants.

 

[FCFC]

He had no way of knowing if this was a massacre.

This is one of several good points that have been brought up. I don't need to go over the others now but the above fact reminds me that the following issue hasn't come up yet in this thread:

After OP departed in a rush, why did he take 10 miles (10 minutes or more?) of driving to realize he should be reporting what he knew, however much or how little it was, to 911? He just witnessed, by his own account, a shooter, multiple shots, had some information about the vehicles involved, etc. and he knew the scene "was not safe" when he departed---but he did not immediately call 911 once he had cleared the scene????

Why not?

Based on what he wrote, the OP seems to have only decided to contact the po-po when he saw some potential legal exposure on his part. 10 minutes later.

Panic.

Or maybe OP did call 911 and forgot to mention it. I don't think I missed it.

OP said:

... I count my actions as scene was not safe. About 10 miles down the road I realized I ran by several people with a gun in my hand and ran off down the road in my car. So I called the dispatch center and explained what happened and they took a statement over the phone and they said they would contact me if they needed any information.

 

[bsf]

If your 1911 has such a light trigger that it is unsafe to carry or manipulate without the safety engaged, get a heavier trigger or a different firearm. You need to be able to hold it on a threat without firing if they give up, and you cannot have the thing going off at that point. It would be negligent homicide. Nor do you want to be putzing around with some safety toggle in the middle of a shootout.

This is my last post in this thread. I always believed I expressed myself clearly through written word, but obviously I do not. This is just annoying. Where did I say the safety should be engaged if the muzzle is directed at the threat? If there is no visible threat, I do not believe the safety should be disengaged.

ETA
My comment about light triggers was basically an acknowledgement of the use of heavy DA trigger pull as a de-facto safety in the absence of a manual safety.

 

[Eric F]

Why not?

Based on what he wrote, the OP seems to have only decided to contact the po-po when he saw some potential legal exposure on his part. 10 minutes later.

Panic.

Or maybe OP did call 911 and for got to mention it. I don't think I missed it.

In that 10 minute drive I saw 2 firetrucks 2 medic units and a swarm of cops and state troopers headed that way I felt no need to call 911. Just didnt mention that. BTW I am starting to feel like a very small portion of members here are putting me on trial. Why? I have done nothing illegal.

 

[jerkface11]

Apparently running away from the bullets isn't the response they wanted from you. You should have ductaped on some trauma plates and shot it out with the guys.

 

[coloradokevin]

tunnel vision blinded me so much I could not even get a visual of the first shooter I saw. How can this be prevented?

Experience and training.

Now you have some experience.


Most folks aren't really ready to deal with these situations the first time it happens to them. A few people have commented that you panicked, but assuming you have no LE/Military experience, and have never been exposed to combat, what should they expect?

It wasn't your fight, and you did well enough to survive it.

For training, I Do suggest you visualize these things in your head from time-to-time, and create little "what-if" scenarios and imagine the solution. I call it "occupational-paranoia", but every time I walk into a bank/store/restaraunt/etc I find myself planning for a fight... It isn't obvious, and it isn't like I'm openly paranoid. But, I look around and I think "cover, concealment, exit, backdrop, etc". I've been doing things this way for years, and it makes you more mentally prepared if something does happen while you are in that situation.

PLEASE NOTE: It will never happen exactly the way you imagined it will... But the more "solutions" you've thought of, the more likely you'll be to act in a manner that saves your life.

Anyway, that is just one way that you can train your mind to overcome the shock of a deadly force encounter.

The actual experience can only be gained from being in those unfortunate situations. Put simply, short of the military/LE guys, you now probably have more experience than 90% of the people on this site. It may have only been one event, but outside of military/LE, how many folks do you think have actually dealt with what you did?

You did fine, because you survived. Learn from your own mistakes (it sounds like you have), and make a mental game plan for future incidents.

 

[Husker1911]

It will never happen the way you imagined it will...

Unless you're FCFC, evidently.

 

[lookn4varmints]

BTW I am starting to feel like a very small portion of members here are putting me on trial. Why? I have done nothing illegal.

FWIW, you're not on trial here, buddy. I think you did just fine. Don't let a few XBOX ninjas sitting around in their footie pajamas second-guess your survival. Contemplate your experience, learn from it and rejoice that you got to go home to see your father-in-law once more.

You got kids and a wife, man. They still have a husband and a father. Way to go!

Oh, as far as your EMT concerns go, I spent many years as a paramedic just outside of Baltimore City.....RULE #1 > Never trade lives. You help no one if you die the process.

 

[Mara]

Holy cow! I'm glad you're OK.

Anyone can second guess your actions after the fact, even (and especially) yourself. What counts is the lessons you take away from such an experience, and sadly experience really *is* the best teacher.

It's all well and good for anyone to say how they'd react in any given situation...it's by far another to be the one IN that situation, fearing for your life, and the fight-or-flight kicks in.

I've thankfully not been in the exact same situation you experienced, but I have been in several different life threatening situations. Some of them, no amount of "class room type" training could have prepared me for....but you can bet if ever faced with the same set of circumstances, I'd *now* do things differently. My guess is, you will too.

Again, I've very glad you're OK. That's the most important part.

 

[Leanwolf]

ROBBY - "You better believe you or I would do it differently! My kid is 40, medically retired LEO, armed!! I would keep my head down, and when he stopped firing come out and cover his six. "

As others are doing a bit of nit picking, I suppose I'll add to it. Robby, it appears to me you're saying that your son, a retired peace officer, upon seeing this incident go down, would pull his firearm and start shooting "bad guys."

I see in other posts on other threads sometimes the same kind of statements of what a CCW holder would do if bullets started flying in some similar situation. Just pull out the ol' cannon and start capping rounds at "the bad guys." Hmmmm.

What people need to be very aware of is that sometimes, the fight is between bad guys and ...... peace officers who are undercover.

Some people will say, "Ahhhh, b.s., I can tell just by looking at 'em if they are bad guys or not!"

Huh uh. I have seen undercover officers from several of the large departments in Los Angeles County, who work Narcotics Div., and Vice Div., who look like the baddest of the bad. Unless you were in a briefing room with them, you would never think they were police officers or Deputy sheriffs.

Often, undercover officers DO NOT carry their badges and idee, and in many cases, do not even carry a "cop type" handgun. The last thing they want is for the bad guys to "make them," or know who they are.

Current and ex-peace officers know what I'm talking about.

This is just to remind those who think that they can recognize the good guys from the bad guys when a gunfight takes place... it ain't hardly as it seems, sometimes.

FWIW.

L.W.

 

[XD Fan]

Eric,

Glad you are safe! You walked away alive and learned...you did well.

 

[HK G3]

Seeing as you're able to post your story online, I'd say you did just fine.

Don't worry about failing to treat the wounded - I'm sure that's going to eat at you for awhile, but you did the right thing. As you said, the area wasn't technically secure yet, and if you had been shot as well, not only would that be bad from a self-preservation standpoint, but it would hinder the rescue effort for those you were trying to help.