ID this cartridge!!!

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ricebasher302

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I found this cartridge (bottom) today as I was sorting through some of my grandfather's old belongings and can't figure out what it is.

It is pictured below a .375 H&H (top) for comparison. The case is not tapered like the H&H, but has the same head and belt diameter and overall length.

It does not appear to have as much shoulder as a .460 Weatherby, and I was able to slip the bullet neatly into an empty .45-70 case, so the bullet must be .458". The head reads: "NORMA Re" and "SPECIAL".

Help me out!
 

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You are SURE that it won't fit into a .45-70 case?

If it did, it looks like a .458 Lott. Don't know if Norma loaded for that, but it doesn't look like a factory load, anyway. The factory would have crimped the case neck into the bullet canilure (sp).
 
I just searched the headstamp info and that is all I found that seemed relevant. Here is the pertinent text:

300 H&H Magnum................Headstamp description
New empty.........................NORMA Re SPECIAL (belted, straight cylindrical brass case for forming into 300 H & H specs. oal is 2.83")

I don't know if this is where that case started life or if it even helps you though.
 
The .460 Weatherby is based on a larger case, altogether. It also shoots the .458 dia. bullet.

The .450 Ackley is longer by over 1/8", so it isn't that one.

Looking at larger dia. bullets, you have a .475 next in line. All of the options that I have looked at in that caliber are based on fatter cartridges with belt diameters that are .583 instead of the .535 of the H&H or they don't have a shoulder.
 
Okay, I was using a .45-70 case that was slightly bent.:cuss: (edited original post)

A better case reveals that the bullet is in fact .458" diameter.

The fact that the bullet is not seated to the cannelure is interesting though.

There is a very slight shoulder on the case which, to me, would eliminate the .458 Lott from the realm of possibilities, but I could be wrong.
 
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I pulled the bullet, and it has a double cannelure. It was seated to the first one. Some sort of soft wax sealant was beneath it.
 
I'd say .450 Watts Magnum. It's similar to the .450 Ackley, but tapered.

It is pictured below a .375 H&H (top) for comparison. The case is not tapered like the H&H, but has the same head and belt diameter and overall length.
Click to expand...


it's exactly the same as the H&H, whatever that measurement would be.
Click to expand...
COTW says 2.85"
 
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Well, looking in the "Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions", the closest I can guess is that it is a .450 Ackley Magnum. Generally, the heavier (500 gr.) bullets are seated out farther so that they don't steal too much of the powder capacity, but then they don't fit into an action built for the .375 H&H without a LOT of modification.

The Loaded Overall Length of the Ackley round is usually 3.750, compared to 3.600 for the .375 H&H. You can imagine that the magazine box would have to be longer, the lower features of the receiver would have to be modified, the feed ramp would be changed, the bolt stop would have to be relieved to the rear... and the list goes on and on.

The shoulder is in virtually the same position on the H&H and the Ackley Mag.

How did you obtain the cartridge?
 
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The .450 Watts doesn't have a shoulder, either.
Click to expand...

Both the .450 Watts and Ackley are pictured with distinct shoulders in Cartridges of the World. There are errors in COTW; is this another?
 
I can't measure the bullet weight, but it's big, I'm guessing near that 500 grain mark.

Since this is not tapered and does have a shoulder, it can't be the Watts.

While the picture does not show this well, the C.O.L. is almost exactly the same as the H&H. The Ackley does seem most probable at this point.

My deceased grandfather was an avid reloader and had a collection of random and obscure cartridges in a wooden box. This was one of them.
 
I can't tell you from personal experience if the Watts does or doesn't have a shoulder. IF it had one, it would be very close to what is pictured. The previously referenced "Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions" shows it without. ???

I have a gunsmith friend who used to modify Win. Mod. 70s for the Ackley Magnum. He said that it was very dificult to get a meaningful increase in performance over the Lott, so he developed his own wildcat, based on the (then) new Rem. UltraMag, necking it up from .375 to .458. He was able to headspace on the shoulder, and the increase in cartridge capacity gave him everything he was lacking in the Ackley, without all of the headaches he had trying to squeeze every last grain of powder into the Ackley case.
 
So are you going to re-seat the bullet? That's a pretty cool find, and your grandfather must have known someone who liked the big thumpers or was planning on heading to Africa for something big.

Thanks for the entertainment. :)
 
Yea, I'll probably re-seat it and keep it as a souvenier of sorts. I wish I knew where he obtained it.

We'll call it a .450 Ackley for now. Thanks for the help guys!
 
From your photo, without case measurements, I would say it is one of three cases.

1. A 450 Ackley Magnum. MOST LIKELY MATCH
2. A 450 Mashburn Magnum
3. A 450 Barnes Supreme.

The Mashburn and the Ackely are virtually identical. The Barnes 450 Supreme is only slightly different around the shoulder area.

Your cartridge was loaded by using Norma basic magnum cylindrical brass. It was made to be necked down to form various wildcats.
These days those who shoot the 450 Ackey Magnum can buy A-Square brass or more recently Quality Brass Company brass. http://www.qual-cart.com/headstamp.htm

It is properly head-stamped and thus avoids the BS with the customs yahoos in Africa. (The rifle and ammo labels must match caliber.)

A-square also makes loaded ammo for the 450 Ackley Mag. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=888350

I have fired a 450 Ackley Mag from a custom built up P-17 action. It really kicks... I thought the filling were going to come out of my teeth.
That is why I settled on a 416 Taylor and gave up the 450 Ack mag idea.



Here are a couple articles that show photos of the 450 Ackely Magnum.


http://www.calpappas.com/id11.html

http://www.africanoutfitter.com/backissues/2007/junejuly/450ackleymagnum.php
 
Thanks for the good info, Float Pilot. You seem very well informed.

While obviously never having never fired a .450 Ackley, I feel confident enough to agree with you that it probably delivers a considerable blow to the trigger man. My bony shoulders will happily stick with warm .45-70s for now.:)
 
QUOTE: ID this cartridge!!!
I found this cartridge (bottom) today as I was sorting through some of my grandfather's old belongings and can't figure out what it is.

It is pictured below a .375 H&H (top) for comparison. The case is not tapered like the H&H, but has the same head and belt diameter and overall length.

It does not appear to have as much shoulder as a .460 Weatherby, and I was able to slip the bullet neatly into an empty .45-70 case, so the bullet must be .458". The head reads: "NORMA Re" and "SPECIAL".

Help me out! end.


old thread, good topic- when you run across a cartridge like that, go by the headstamp, I just happened to buy 100+ empty brass for 300 Win Mag, 300 H&H, and 300 Weatherby Mag, and the bag that was supposed to be for 300 Win Mag, was headstamped Norma 300 Re Special.

What that is, is a generic 300 Magnum belted family virgin brass sold by Norma, it can be fire formed into either 300 H&H or 300 Weatherby magnums, or the neck trimmed back and used for 300 Win Mag. The shoulder as issued was closest to 300 Win Mag shoulder. I have a bag of that brass unfired and new.

what someone did was, they resized it to larger caliber and used it in a 458 or 460 or ? some larger caliber belted cartridge. Not unusual.

being the belted magnum family all headspaces on the belt, you can do that. You can take a 460 Weatherby Mag or 458 Win Mag, and full length resize it to a 7mm Rem Mag if you wanted to, and it would have the larger caliber headstamp on it.

when you see a cartridge that just says "300 Magnum" it is an old brass for the 300 H&H, but that too can easily be resized, I found one fire formed to 300 Wby Mag
 
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