Identify S&W 38 Hand Ejector

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bdoenges

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Please help me identify a Smith & Wesson 38 hand ejector that I inherited from my grandfather.
It is "blue"; has a 4 inch barrel; has patent markings of 2/6/05, 9/14/09 and 12/29/1914; is marked "Property of US Government"; and has a serial number that is difficult to read, but appears to be 60887.
What does the "CTG" marking mean?
Thank you.
 
I would expect that the serial number would be stamped:

On the bottom of the butt.

On the rear face of the cylinder.

On the bottom of the barrel, above the ejector rod.

Also see if the letter "V" doesn't preceed the number. On the butt the "V" (if it is there) might be on the other side of the lanyard ring.
 
Additional Marking Information from the Owner

Thank you for the information so far.

I just spent some time with better lighting and a magnifying glass. Here is all that I can see as far as markings on this gun:

on the bottom of the barrel, above the ejector rod: "60827"

on the bottom of the butt: nothing

on the rear face of the cylinder: nothing

on the right side: 1) the S&W trade mark symbol, and "REG. U.S.A." beneath it
2) "MADE IN U.S.A."

on left side of barrel: "SMITH & WESSON"

on right side of barrel: "(a symbol) 38 S.&W. CTG (a symbol)"

on top of barrel: 1) "(unreadable)SSON SPRINGFIELD MASS U S A"
2) "PATENTED FEB.6.06.SEPT 4.09.DEC.29.14"

on left side top of frame: "UNITED STATES PROPERTY"

I would very much appreciate further guidance in understanding the age/history of this gun, and what its value might be.

thank you.
 
If there is no number on the bottom of the butt, it has been removed, probably by someone who "liberated" the gun and feared it being traced to him.

Now the bad news. Removing or obliterating the serial number of a firearm is illegal and so is possession of a firearm from which the number has been removed. I don't know if the fact that the serial number is still on the barrel keeps the gun from being illegal or not. It is always too bad when innocent folks are stuck with that kind of thing. Most simply ignore the question, and there is seldom a problem, but the illegality could "rise up and bite you" at some time or another.

Jim
 
The patent dates on the barrel indicate that it is a Smith & Wesson 1905 Hand Ejector (or Military & Police) model, 4th Change. The United States Property stamp on the top strap would mean it's a Victory Model version of the 1905 Hand Ejector made between 1942 and 1945. But it that case the serial number should be preceeded by the letter "V". Serial No. V 60,127 would have been made during 1942. It would appear that the serial number was altered, and as Jim pointed out this is illegal. Serial No. 60,127 would have been made in 1904 or 1905, and not have a 1914 patent stamp on the barrel. It could be marked, "United States Property," but that's unlikely.

The .38 S&W CTG. marking means that it was made primarily for the U.K. and Commonwealth countries during World War Two. There it was known as the 38-200, because it used a .38 S&W cartridge using a 200 grain bullet. During the middle 1950's thousands of these were returned to the United States and sold as military surplus. Some were renovated an/or refinished, and that may be when the serial number was removed.
 
Thank you for the information.

The gun appears to be in good condition. What is the appropriate ammunition to use in it?
 
Ammo is .38 S&W, not to be confused with the more common .38 Special. You won't find it at Wal-Mart, but most gun shops will have it in stock.
 
Just FWIW, S&W put the "V" prefix on the butt serial number but not in the barrel or cylinder serial numbers. The "V" (and later the "S" indicating the new safety) were actually not part of the butt serial number; the letters were stamped separately before the gun went to the numbering machine.

It is good to remember why the "V" was put on in the first place, which was that with the large military contracts, the M&P serial numbers went to 999999, and S&W's numbering machines only went to six digits. The obvious answer was to add a prefix. The original plan was to make it "A", then some advertising genius suggested "V for Victory", a common expression at the time, and the "Victory Model" was born. The name was used in S&W ads, but was never used in any government correspondence, which always referred to the Military and Police Model.

Jim
 
Quick question, when you are looking at the "butt" of the gun, are you looking at the bottom of the metal grip frame or the bottom of some type of grips that obscure the metal grip frame?
 
Answer to Question

Being very new to hand guns, I am not certain how to best answer your question.

I do not know the correct terminoloy for the various parts of the gun.

The butt, the bottom edge of the handle, seems to be a smooth continuation of the main metal portion of the gun itself -- the frame? -- including the trigger guard.

The two rounded wodd sides of the handle seem to be attached to that metal part by a single screw.

On the bottom of the handle, the metal is not completely flush with the ends of the wood, but is recessed a little. There is a hole near the center of that bottom part of the metal where a ring (?) used to be...
 
OK, in that case, bdoenges, it certainly seems a serial number has come up missing.

If you wish to keep this revolver, you should seek out information on how to get the serial number legally restored so it will be in compliance with federal law.
 
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Question: If the gun in question had a lanyard loop on the butt, would they have put a serial number there in the first place at all?
 
Question: If the gun in question had a lanyard loop on the butt, would they have put a serial number there in the first place at all?
Click to expand...

Yes, although the number was stamped before the lanyard loop was installed.
 
OK, the order of the process makes sense, of course, but why put a serial number there anyhow if it is going to be obscured when they install the lanyard ring? Did they have the serial number spaced out out around where they would put the ring or would they stamp it off to the side instead of the middle?

Sounds like a dumb question, but I'm thinking if the gun was intended to have a lanyard ring, maybe they would have put the serial number elsewhere in the first place, and the gun in question would be legal after all. (Also, I believe there are provisions in the BATFE rules for moving or replacing a serial number, so maybe that's what happened in this case.)

I had a 1917 Colt once, and it's been a long time, but I seem to recall it had a plug where the lanyard ring would have been*, and no serial number on the butt. I forget where it was, but not on the butt. That was the only revolver I ever had (a milsurp) which would have had a lanyard ring, but it's been forty years and my memory of it may be unclear.

-----
* I don't know if the butt had been tapped for a lanyard ring in the first place and then plugged or the ring was later removed or ground off.
 
Often the ordnance mark and the "V" prefix were on one side of the lanyard loop, the numerical portion of the serial number was on the other side of the lanyard loop on a Victory Model. Occasionally the prefix and numerical portion were on the same side. The lanyard loop flops and rotates to allow the serial number to be read.

It had long been accepted practice at Smith & Wesson to put the "official" serial number on the butt of the gun.

attachment.php


Read the National Firearms Act of 1934. The BATF requires handguns to have a serial number on the frame if they were manufactured with a serial number, or if they were manufactured after 1934. Remember to the BATF, the frame is the gun. Firearms manufactured prior to 1934 are exempt from the serial number requirement. Defacement or removal of the serial number is a felony offense, even if the gun was produced prior to 1934. Possession of such a firearm is also illegal, and the onus has historically been on the possessor to prove they did not remove the serial number themselves. It's one area where a person is considered guilty until proven innocent.

Sec.

5861. Prohibited acts.

§ 5861. Prohibited acts

It shall be unlawful for any person --

(g) to obliterate, remove, change, or alter the serial number or other identification of a firearm required by this chapter; or

(h) to receive or possess a firearm having the serial number or other identification required by this chapter obliterated, removed, changed, or altered; or

(i) to receive or possess a firearm which is not identified by a serial number as required by this chapter;........

5871. Penalties.

5872. Forfeitures.

§ 5871. Penalties

Any person who violates or fails to comply with any provision of this chapter shall, upon conviction, be fined not more than $10,000, or be imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
Click to expand...
bdoenges states: "On the bottom of the handle, the metal is not completely flush with the ends of the wood, but is recessed a little." It certainly seems as though the firearm in question has had it's serial number ground and/or polished off. The only legal way to go from here is to either surrender the firearm, or approach the BATF regarding having the serial number restored. To be honest, I'm not certain how to do either.
 

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When it comes to Colt model 1917's you have a can of worms. Colt's serial number is stamped on the frame, behind the crane. The Army number is stamped on the butt, forward of the lanyard ring; and represents the number of guns shipped against the contract(s). So for example, the number on the butt starts at "1" and goes to 154,800 give or take. Colt's serial numbers start around 149,000 and goes to about 305,000.
 
Hi, XavierBreath,

That section of the 1934 NFA applies only to guns designated as "firearms" under that act (and its successor, Title II of GCA 68), i.e., machineguns, short barrel rifles, silencers, etc.

The pertinent section for other guns is 18 USC 44 Section 922 (k), which says:

"(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce."

Jim
 
Thank you, thank you. Even with the Colt "can of worms" introduced, that clarifies a lot. I guess it wasn't such a dumb question after all, all in all. Just have no experience in that kind of detail.

Great Pic, Xavier Breath. 'Splains a lot right there. That must've taken some extra effort.

Me go now, with a thank-you wave of my hand.
 
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