stonebuster
Member
If I sent a model 10-10 to Smith for work would they convert it to transfer bar/hammer like the new models or leave it alone? I'd rather not have it converted because the trigger is so smooth now. I'd find a gun smith instead.
If I send a model 10-10 back to Smith...
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I think you have confused Ruger with S&W. S&W revolvers do not have a transfer bar and never have. Having a transfer bar (like a Ruger) or a hammer block (like a S&W) has absolutely no effect on the trigger pull. What type of work are you considering on your S&W?
CajunBass
Member
Are you thinking they'll change a firing pin on the hammer to a frame mounted firing pin, maybe? If that I doubt they'd even be able to do it without a new frame.
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stonebuster
Member
Thanks, Drail for clearing that up. I've just started with handguns two years ago and still learning. I have newer GP-100s with the transfer bar and an old Single Six without it and was warned if I sent the SS back to Ruger for repair it would be converted. The "gunsmith" at my range looked at the 10-10 I had brought in trying to get a side plate screw. He told me my 10-10 which I bought at my range was the only one they had out of ten that didn't have a transfer bar. I told him they had 10-8s with the firing pin on hammer like my 10-10. He said "ya, but this one has no transfer bar so less moving parts and smoother trigger." Even though I'm a novice, I thought how can you have a transfer bar with a hammer mounted firing pin? He then told me the side plate screw I needed was the same as the screw next to it(yoke screw) which I argued with him about. He said he'd prove it, took out an ill fitted screwdriver(buggered the yoke screw) and tried to fit it in the side plate screw hole. I was told this "gunsmith" was great with revolvers but apparently doesn't know much about the 6 million model 10's that were made. Sorry about venting but I have to do it here and be nice when I go back to range today. To your question, the 10-10 has been shot a lot and has some end shake which may need to be corrected with shimming. It's not contacting the forcing cone yet but pushing the cylinder forward measures .002. It's something I could do but the ejector rod doesn't want to unscrew(left hand thread) and I don't want to damage it. It functions perfectly and shoots accurately. I was planning ahead in the event I needed to have it worked on in the future.
1KPerDay
Member
I sent them a model 28 for endshake/gap fix and they left the hammer mounted firing pin alone. They did replace the bolt with MIM part for some dang reason. Took them 6 months and 2 tries to fix it but they eventually did. They should leave yours alone unless that particular part is broken or whatever.
Well, at least now you know there are a LOT of guys out there claiming to be smiths who actually have no idea what they're doing and WILL mess your gun up badly. The only safe way to remove the ejector rod is with a tool from Brownells that clamps all the way around the ejector rod. Midway may have it also. The threads should be left hand on your gun in case you weren't aware. Make very sure to place two or three empty cases in two or three of the chambers before you put any torque on the rod or you will damage the extractor star or locator pins when the rod is torqued. If the rod is damaged new ones are cheap (S&W, Brownells or Midway should have them). Those are extremely fine threads and very easy to strip. Go easy on it. The correct way to remove the sideplate is to remove the screws and hold the gun with the sideplate down close to the benchtop and rap on the grip frame with a screwdriver handle or a plastic mallet. It should vibrate right off the frame and fall on your bench. Never try to pry a sideplate off. Brownells should also have new S&W sideplate screws if yours are chewed up. They must all go back into the hole they came from. The one with the flat head goes under grip and the yoke screw will have a spring loaded plunger in the tip (older S&W guns will not have the plunger tipped screw but the screw must be filed to the exact proper length for your gun). Chapman makes a nice affordable screwdriver set and the bits can be filed or ground for a perfect fit on each screw. They really need to hollow ground and be a correct fit so that the screw is driven from the bottom of the slot to prevent deforming the head. Midway should have most of the tools you need to work on a S&W. You may already know some of this stuff but feel free to PM me if you have any questions. Or you can order the Kuhnhausen S&W Revolver Shop Manual and learn everything there is to know about S&W revolvers. The book is not cheap but it will save you a lot of money by preventing you from damaging parts or working on the wrong part and you will learn how a S&W revolver works. I highly recommend buying the book. You should read it before you play with any shims. S&W has become so bad on repair work that I would rather find a qualified smith or do it yourself than send it to them.
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stonebuster
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I appreciate the tips especially about empty cases in chambers before applying torque. I'm pretty anal about taking proper care of my guns even these that been knocked around a bit. I've been reading everything I can on line about the model 10s including correct side plate removal with a tap of mallet but doesn't hurt to hear some of it again. I've not had the side plate off and don't plan on it anytime soon. I did not know that the yoke screw was spring loaded. When I pulled it out on the 10-10 to clean the cylinder the spring didn't come out with it. I've already ordered screwdrivers from Brownells that are advertised as for S&W revolvers. I ordered side plate and yoke screws from S&W CS cheaper than anywhere I looked. I may get the shop manual you mentioned and I've heard it mentioned several places when researching. Finding a qualified smith may be the hardest part. A gun shop owner I bought an almost flawless 1968 Ruger 3 screw Single Six 22LR from sells a lot of high end used revolvers like Pythons and would be a good place to start to look for a good smith.
Well, sadly I don't know exactly what year the Model 10-10 was made - it may have a solid screw with no plunger. They went to the plunger tip screw sometime in the late 80s. If it is a solid screw it was carefully fitted by the factory to that specific revolver. If you buy a new one it will be a little long and require fitting. Go slow and file the tip until the yoke rotates in and out freely with no drag when the screw is fully tightened down. OK - I looked it up. The plunger screw was introduced on all Model 10s in 1988. I used to know all this stuff but it's been a few years and my mind is going.........
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stonebuster
Member
My 10-10 is 1998 or 99. I don't see any locator pins on extractor star or holes in cylinder on my 10-10 or 10-14(2007). Maybe only old model 10s have them?
You are correct. In 1996 S&W changed over to a CAD/CAM machined extractor shaped in such a way the locator pins are no longer needed. I believe when that change was made all models had the new extractor shape. I would still place empty cases in a couple of chambers to take the load off the tips of the extractor. Like I said - my mind is going......
straightshooterjake
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I find that when people refer to the "transfer bar" on a S&W revolver, they are often actually referring to the hammer block safety. When the hammer is cocked, the hammer block safety looks similar to the Ruger transfer bar, but its function is quite different.
The S&W hammer block safety is one of the mechanisms that make modern S&W revolvers fully drop safe. If the hammer block safety is removed, the revolver will still seem to work OK, but it could possibly fire if dropped.
Some "gunsmiths," say that the hammer block safety is not necessary and that it hurts the double action trigger pull. But really, both of these statements are incorrect.
When someone talks about a S&W revolver not having a "transfer bar" my first thought is to make sure that the hammer block safety is correctly in place and has not been removed.
The hammer block safety is shown in this youtube video from MidwayUSA.
The S&W hammer block safety is one of the mechanisms that make modern S&W revolvers fully drop safe. If the hammer block safety is removed, the revolver will still seem to work OK, but it could possibly fire if dropped.
Some "gunsmiths," say that the hammer block safety is not necessary and that it hurts the double action trigger pull. But really, both of these statements are incorrect.
When someone talks about a S&W revolver not having a "transfer bar" my first thought is to make sure that the hammer block safety is correctly in place and has not been removed.
The hammer block safety is shown in this youtube video from MidwayUSA.
Riomouse911
Member
That video explains exactly what I was thinking when the gun owner said the gunsmith was talking about the S&W "transfer bar".... it's the hammer block.
Some people do take them out, but as shown it really has no influence on the trigger pull...but it could have a negative issue if the hammer is struck hard enough with a loaded chamber under the firing pin....
Stay safe!
Some people do take them out, but as shown it really has no influence on the trigger pull...but it could have a negative issue if the hammer is struck hard enough with a loaded chamber under the firing pin....
Stay safe!
Jesse Heywood
Member
I will second the Kuhnhausen manuals. I have them for most of my handguns. Also a Brownell screwdriver set and assorted tools and you can do your own work. Then you don't have to worry about Bubba the smith damaging your guns.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy
Not a Model 10, but on the left is the cylinder from a Model 17-3 and on the right is a cylinder from a Model 617-6. The Model 17 has the standard style extractor star with two pins for alignment. The Model 617 has the more recent style with no pins. If you look carefully you can see how the shape of the extractor fits into the cuts in the cylinder to keep everything lined up. The Model 17-3 shipped in 1975, the 617 shipped in 2003.
Not a Model 10, but on the left is the cylinder from a Model 17-3 and on the right is a cylinder from a Model 617-6. The Model 17 has the standard style extractor star with two pins for alignment. The Model 617 has the more recent style with no pins. If you look carefully you can see how the shape of the extractor fits into the cuts in the cylinder to keep everything lined up. The Model 17-3 shipped in 1975, the 617 shipped in 2003.
thomas15
Member
Worth repeating.
Also, unless you are a casual revolver shooter it is a good idea to purchase spare items like screws, in particular the side plate and yoke screws.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
Yes, the video is excellent. A much easier approach than the wordy approach I would make, including photos.
I wish that transparent plastic side plate Larry puts on the frame was still available. Brownells used to carry it but no longer.
And I too highly recommend the Kuhnhuasen books. Best books on the market and well worth the price.
http://www.gunbooks.com/sw.html
Highly recommend Brownells Magn-Tip screw drivers too.
Yes, the video is excellent. A much easier approach than the wordy approach I would make, including photos.
I wish that transparent plastic side plate Larry puts on the frame was still available. Brownells used to carry it but no longer.
And I too highly recommend the Kuhnhuasen books. Best books on the market and well worth the price.
http://www.gunbooks.com/sw.html
Highly recommend Brownells Magn-Tip screw drivers too.
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stonebuster
Member
They arrived today from Smith. Two yoke screws and four side plate screws. Screw driver came a couple days ago from Brownells. I compared the yoke screws(pointed) that arrived to the one I took out of the 10-10(1998-99 vintage) and they looked exactly the same length to my eye. I didn't try fitting the new yoke screw into the gun yet. I'll have to more carefully measure it. Thanks for the tips from all of you. I'm enjoying learning more about these revolvers.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
You don't have to measure anything. I doubt if the assemblers at S&W measured the screw length. They simply filed the tip to fit.
Here is a view of the three side plate screws of a Model 17-3 from 1975. Notice the left hand screw (the one under the grip) has a flattened head so when it is snugged down the head will be subflush and not interfere with the grip.
All you have to do is snug the screw down all the way. Don't torque the dickens out of it, just snug it. Then see if the yoke swings freely. If the yoke swings freely, you are done. If the yoke binds when the screw is snugged down, file a little bit off the tip and try again. Once the tip of the screw has been filed down enough, the yoke should swing freely. That's all there is to it.
Here are the screws of a Model 617-6. The screw to the left and the center screw are identical. The 'grip' screw sits a little bit proud when installed, but the rubber grip yields so there is no problem. The newer style screw to the right engages a groove in the yoke. This screw has a spring loaded plunger inside that bears against the V shaped groove in the yoke. No fitting is needed because the plunger will retract enough to hold the yoke in place without putting enough pressure on the groove to bind the yoke. Notice the yoke screw has a bit of thread locker to keep it from moving.
Here is a photo of the two yokes. The one on the left is from the 17-3. The one on the right is from the the newer Model 617. With the older gun, the flat tip of the yoke screw captures the yoke to keep the yoke from sliding out of the frame. The tip of the screw goes into the deep groove running around the bottom of the yoke. If the screw is too long, it will bottom on the bottom of the groove, preventing the yoke from swinging freely. You don't have to measure anything, if the yoke binds, just file a tiny amount off the tip of the screw so it no longer bottoms against the groove when snugged down all the way. The groove on the newer yoke is V shaped to accommodate the V shaped plunger on the yoke screw.
When you install the screws, the side plate may or may not snug down all the way. It depends on how tightly the side plate fits in the frame, and they can vary slightly. If the side plate is still a little bit proud, torque the screws down to push the side plate all the way down. Do not over tighten, just use enough torque to snug the plate in place. You will develop a feel for it over time about how much snugging the screws need. Just a little bit will do you.
By the way, keeping track of which screw goes where is easy if you use the technique Larry showed in his video. I have a little piece of wood I use to hold the screws when I take a Smith apart, but a cardboard template will work fine too.
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stonebuster
Member
Thanks Driftwood, that clears it up. I've got the style your 617-6 has with the V shaped grove in the yoke and the same yoke screw as in your picture with the thread locker. Under my grip I've got the flat head side plate screw, then the round head side plate and the yoke screw which I couldn't confuse with either of the others. I'm only changing the screws because they're boogered up some and new ones look better. I know ya can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear but I'm doing what I can to clean the her up some. Now to tackle the touch up bluing on the cylinder and a couple spots.
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stonebuster
Member
Cold blue worked very well on the badly worn/scratched cylinder and strap which was down to bare steel. Here's before and after of the cylinder and a pic of the gun showing how it matches closely.
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