If you HAD TO carry any NON lethal device

Not open for further replies.
kBob said:
There is a guy that lived out in California named Rodney Long that did not think much of two "real tasers", CS/CN spray and the first few licks of a baton.

I assume you mean Rodney King, and no he didn't experience the Taser that is for sale in todays market. The modern Taser wouldn't even be developed for several years after that event.

And no, you can't "fight through" a Taser as some people suggest. It's not biologically possible and belies a basic misunderstanding of how Tasers work. When the Taser is shocking, no one fights through it. Law enforcement Taser have user controlled discharge, meaning the office activates the shock or not in order to take the suspect into custody. This is often confused as the suspect fighting through the Taser because the Taser is not generating any effect when it isn't discharging and the suspect returns to doing what they were doing. The civilian model Taser I recommended above automatically discharges for 30 seconds, giving you plenty of time to escape while your attacker isn't doing anything but living in a world of hurt. Taser even encourages people who use their taser to drop them and run away upon activation. In fact, they will replace the unit for free if you send them a police report.

They simply work.

OC is good, and a workhorse, but it has it's limits.
Taser is better.
Don't like the baton at all, it just gets tied up in the seat belt.
My personal layered self-defense approach looks something like this:

• Some sort of "eye closer" (metsubushi)- 100% OC spray is state of the art in this regard
• CQC impact tool e.g. flashlight, kubaton, pen or SS Sharpie (in restrictive areas) etc.
• Impact tool with more reach- Umbrella or cane/walking stick
There is a guy that lived out in California named Rodney Long that did not think much of two "real tasers", CS/CN spray and the first few licks of a baton.

I'm just saying to be aware that yes sometimes folks CAN fight through most anything not involving the loss of enough blood to induce major shock, interruption of the CNS or destruction of a major support structure like say a broken thigh.

If you have the opportunity, I strongly encourage you to volunteer for an X26 demo. It will change your mind. Unlike a stun gun, it actually does disrupt the CNS by causing uncontrollable muscle contractions.

Once the current passes through you, your body goes stiff as a board and the motor signals your brain sends to your muscles do not work. Despite the high cost and lawsuits from the occasional-but-constant taser-related deaths, LEAs have taken a strong liking to them because of how effectively they incapacitate, even if someone is hopped up on PCP or meth, and how it offers an incapacitating agent that is far less lethal than a JHP.

While the movies always show people fighting through tasers, once the current interrupts CNS signals, you're completely incapacitated. You might poop yourself in the process, hence it's worth having a change of pants for a demo.
There is NO force option that is 100% effective on everyone. During my LE career I certified on, carried and used the following less lethal force options:

Straight baton

PR24 Side handle Baton

36" Riot Baton

ASP collapsible baton



If I were to have to choose one less lethal option it would be OC.

Tasers work, but they are as large as a pistol, you must get both barbs into your assailant or it won't work. It may look easy in the videos. But in the dynamic conditions of a fight it's easy to only hit your attacker with one barb or to have one barb fall out. You also get the best results when the barbs have some distance between them. The different taser cartridges are designed to give the optimum spread at the range they are designed for. Tase an assailant from 5 feet or closer with a cartridge designed for 15 or 25 feet and you might get a couple inches spread between the two barbs. At that range you are better off pulling the cartridge off and using the taser in drive stun mode. That's a lot to think about when you are in a fight and there is always the chance you'll shoot the barbs into your own hand taking the cartridge off. If you live in an area with cold winters you might not get the barbs into the skin through heavy clothing or the barb may stick in the clothing then fall out. The effect of a taser stops the second the current is off.

The taser is great for what it was designed for, a stand off weapon that allows an officer to safely take a subject into custody that he would otherwise have had to use another type of force. It has a lot of drawbacks as a reactive defensive weapon.

OC is effective, you can use it up close and its effects linger, allowing you to escape. The best part of being a private citizen and using OC is that you can spray and run. I hated spraying a subject and then getting it all over myself handcuffing the subject and then getting it all over the backseat of my squad.

OC is compact, effective and you can use it at any range from contact up to 12 feet or so depending on which kind you get.

I wouldn't carry any type of impact weapon as a private citizen.
Ain't no such a thing as a "non-lethal device" for self defense, in my opinion.

There are, however, devices with varying degrees of effectiveness and lethality in applying force of any kind. Their relative effectiveness is subject to a lot of factors...such as individual training and actual physical proficiency with them, how they're designed to apply force, how the force is actually applied, the specific circumstances in which the force is actually utilized, how the human body reacts to the force (both generally and individually), etc.

My favorite less-lethal self-defense tool is the most effective self-defense tool I can get my hands on when the time comes. How deadly it is comprises only a part of whether it's suitable enough for what I need. It's main function is to effectively stop my attacker.

Granted...I've never actually heard of someone dying from pepper spray. But I CAN kill someone with it or its container. It just ain't very likely.

Baseball bat and a glove. "Gee officer I was just heading to the batting cage and this fellow accosted me".
OK I fixed my post as a local politicians name crept in.

Other than the packaging or that is shape of the "gun" how is the modern taser any different from the older grey pistol griped flashlight guns of the 1980's?

I heard the same claims about it.

Might be curious to get a score of volunteers to be tasered with both types and see if ther is a difference.

I was wanded with the old style. They had a cartridge that allowed one to deal with more than one target, though you gave up one of the two shots you had to do so. There was the regular two dart cartridge with trailing wires and the crowd cartridge had a set of extendable radio type antennas that one could push into contact.

This was indeed NOTHING like the later "Stunners" the hand held contact devices in its effects (or near lack there of) on me. I know those Stunners were carried in Atlanta only briefly as they were not that useful and lead to claims of torture of cuffed individuals. I did see on use for them. Most had a test circuit that allowed one to cause a spark gap type arc which was a bit impressive to the uninformed in low light. An Atlanta LEO told me he had broken a few fights by displaying the sparks and so not gotten physically in the fight himself.

I rather liked the idea that the light on the original taser covered what you were to shoot, though the mid 1980's lights were no where near as good as what is out there now. I can't recall that there were any handgun weapon lights of any note at the time.

I think it informative that when I asked a local Deputy about arms retention of his taser ,as it seemed to be to be almost asking to be stripped, that his response was that they were trained to go for there primary carry gun if tased.

I am curious as to why they would bother to train so given the surety of the taser incapacitating anyone.

Very shortly after the little department 15 minutes south of where I am sitting started carrying the new tasers a Deputy reported a failure that resulted in his having to use an ASP.

very sturdy rawhide pouch with even stronger drawstrings. Put six morgan silver dollars in it. O.C. spray is good, stun guns are good. I like blades, current law where I live restricts concealed knives to folders with a blade of 3" or less. Law doesn't specify how sharp or how many. An old man with a razor sharp knife in each hand doesn't need a lot of speed, athleticism, or practice to be a real pain in the backside of an attacker or three ;)
If people buy stunners expecting to get Taser performance, then they'll be severely disappointed.

Taser technology is more than just "shocking" someone. The pulse technology used is designed specifically to target voluntary muscular movement as opposed to involuntary muscular movement, due to some differences in how those muscles work bioelectrically and where those muscles are located.

The layman's translation to this is that, combined with the very low currents that Tasers use, involuntary muscle such as your heart aren't likely to be affected.

Also, the Taser pulse technology is specifically designed to make your voluntary muscles contract and release a whole buncha times while the Tasering is happening.

The layman's translation to this is that while a person is being Tasered, their voluntary muscles are contracting and releasing a LOT...which, like a heavy workout, uses up a lot of stored energy in the muscles. This means that the muscles will not have enough energy to move very well, or at all, when the Tasering ends. And the longer the Tasering, the more exhausted the muscles become.

This is why a person who has been Tasered any amount of time simply cannot move for a while after the Tasering ends...he quite literally has no energy left to do so.

Stunners don't use Taser technology...and if they do, they should say so. So stunner performance isn't the same as Taser performance.

I had heard a while back that Taser's patent had expired on their technology and that others are starting to use it. I don't know if this is true, though.
This is why a person who has been Tasered any amount of time simply cannot move for a while after the Tasering ends...he quite literally has no energy left to do so.

I don't know where you got your information from, but this is simply not true. I can relate several incidents where as soon as the shock ended the fight was back on. Sometimes a suspect had to be shocked multiple times.

I took the full 5 second ride the first time I certified on the taser and I can tell you from personal experience that as soon as the shock is over, the effects are gone and a suspect is capable of resisting.

I was tasered in the certification class, and I was OC'd when we certified to carry that. If I were a criminal and given a choice I would pick taser over OC every time.

The taser will put you down if it's employed right. But as soon as it's over, it's over. It takes awhile to recover from OC.

Of course neither one is guaranteed to work on everyone, every time.
Well...there I go being "book smart" again!

I'll bow to your experience over my book-smarts every time on matters like this.

But tell me...how do stunners stack up against Tasers?
Those stun guns are almost useless in my opinion. Our Dept tested them back in the 90s. If they were completely charged they might work on some people.

We went with OC instead.
Here's one article that addresses the physiology behind how Tasers work.


I'm trying to find something on the stored muscle energy depletion I mentioned before. But the critical factor behind this effect is the duration of the pulse. A few seconds means a shorter recovery time. A much longer exposure time means a significantly longer recovery time.

Field use, though, is often less than ideal as I'm sure your experiences will bear out. That's true about many things. The Taser, after all, is nothing more than a glorified dart gun with tiny barbs and a trailing extension cord. Lots of less than ideal conditions with this design.

Throw on people with a wide variety of physiological conditions, endurances, and "medication", and I can readily see more cases for less than ideal results.
A high Lumen shockproof flashlight with a crenelated bezel. Mine is a fixed focus Surefire that takes two 123s batteries. I can't remember the model off the top of my head.
Not open for further replies.