Carrying a Less-Than-Lethal Weapon in Addition to a Firearm?

[Lawdawg45]

Not to get off topic, but I thought the whole "bulletproof vest" was proven to be media hype? I was under the impression that he was actually just wearing a ballistic "tactical vest" or at most surplus "riot gear". I figured a few rounds of quality .380 would have at least shut him down enough to stop firing.

However, to stay on point, yes I think a different tool set to augment your primary is never a bad idea if you can fit it into your daily carry. If the shooter was wearing actual armor and if one did have the opportunity and presence of mind, I would think even a 3.5" folding blade could make a difference. Even armored up, there are lots of soft spots.

That said, I might have shot back, but I don't think I would have had the sand to flank a guy wielding an AR with my knife

As far as the armor vs tactical vest, I've heard both reported from trustworthy sources, we'll see what the FBI says in their report. If he was wearing Kevlar, unless he had a trauma plate inserted in the sternal area, a knife, arrow, bolt (crossbow version), and many other object will penetrate the vest like warm butter.

LD

 

[HorseSoldier]

Pepper spray is another club in the golf bag, and can be the right answer or the wrong answer in different situations. In Alaska I carry bear spray when out in the woods, and wish I'd had it in the Lower 48 in the past for dealing with aggressive dogs once or twice.

 

[Fiv3r]

I have never been a huge fan of pepper spray simply because there is always the chance that it could blow back in your face.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly don't think that pepper spray is useless at all and can be a game changer if it is one of the tools in your tool box. Obviously, in the case of dogs, it's awesome. If dog charges me, I feel that giving him a snoot full of PS and swift shove with my foot decreases my chances of being bit better than trying to draw a knife or make the split second decision of drawing my pistol.

I think my biggest beef with PS is that some ladies and gentlemen will sometimes brandish this little tube of it like it's a firearm. I understand that a lot of people simply do not want to hurt anyone and want to give "fair warning", but if you're going to draw the spray, you better use it. PS loses a lot of its advantages when you present it. It's a great stealth option to spray, break the grasp, and run.

Conversely, I really like the Tornado spray that Ruger is now handling. I have a customer who is a rep for it and gave me a sample to give to my wife. I have to say, I really like it as it's not just a PS but also an alarm/distraction system. When you draw the spray from its special beeper-looking holster, it lets out an ear piercing alarm as well as a strobing flash at the front of the nozzle. Not only are you armed with spray, but you also are drawing attention to yourself and potentially disorienting an attacker. I think it does a lot of things to help stack the deck for someone who may not handle physical altercation well.

I know my wife likes having it on her person, but then again she's 5'10, of good german/amazon stock, and would have no problem flattening the nose of someone getting fresh with her

 

[Rovert]

I was just directed to this thread having posted one substantially similar myself and had it closed in favor of this one.

Very good discussion here.

I posit that using pepper spray is a MEANS TO DE-ESCALATION, which is in keeping with our commitment as gun owners to avoidance, and also is a plausible explanation for a Grand Jury to hear, no matter what the ultimate outcome is.

 

[Hunter125]

As to the spray drifting, I bought a Pepperblaster for this. I live in IL, so I can't CCW, so I carry the PB instead, along with at least one knife. My job takes me to farms fairly often and I'd rather have the PB than a knife for aggressive dogs. I'd rather not kill a client's pet if I don't have to.

A question. I know drawing a firearm is brandishing and assault in many places, is the same true of drawing a knife or OC spray? It seems to me if you draw a knife or OC spray and they continue their attack, they just crossed a line into threatening my life, so if I'm CCW'ing I'll draw and fire if I must.

 

[hso]

I posit that using pepper spray is a MEANS TO DE-ESCALATION,

I can't see using pepper spray as de-escalation since the guy sprayed and/or his buddies will consider it going a level up and not down the scale, BUT it is a less lethal defensive measure to allow you to break off and flee.

 

[Owen Sparks]

I used pepper spray to break up a bar room brawl once and got it on my hands. On the way home I made the mistake of rubbing my eyes and had to pull off the road. I am glad that did not happen during the fight!

 

[Torgy]

For puroses of self-defense, in most states, threat of imminent death is not the sole ground on which you can use deadly force. Usually it's death OR substantial bodily harm ("SBH").

Having said that, I understand your point. I carry a 21-inch ASP and a Surefire G2 with a Cree Q5 drop-in and Solarforce crenelated strike bezel. At night, hit them in the eyes with 300 lumens of light and then whack away when they're still blinded.

 

[RTR_RTR]

If you're close enough to whack them with the flashlight, the reflection of the light off their face is probably going to blind you too

 

[hso]

the reflection of the light off their face is probably going to blind you too

Nope

I own a similarly bright flashlight and no amount of reflection short of a mirror's will blind you.

 

[Torgy]

I just checked. It's an R5 (320 lumens), not a Q5. And no, the reflection off his face wouldn't blind me. But this beam would disorient anyone even during the day. And just a suggestion: don't waste $160 on a Helzetta. Buy a G2 and mod it w/ aftermarket bulb and bezel with EBay purchases.

 

[Carne Frio]

I have actually used bear spray six times in the last
few years on aggressive dogs (4) and drunks (2).
Yes, I know that spraying humans with bear spray
might not be legal, the alternative was to use my
daily carry firearm. Where I live there would be no
problems with law enforcement with using the less
lethal to avoid having to take a life. I do plan on
adding a high lumen light, with the strobe feature.

 

[Owen Sparks]

I played with a buddies AR awhile back that had one of the new super brite lights on it. It would be fine for night hunting hogs at long range but it was really too much for indoor use. Inside the close quarters of a dark house the brilliant white light reflecting back off an interior window or even a smooth white surface like painted drywall is enough to distroy your night vision. I think a 2 cell TLR-1 is plenty brite for indoor use, maybe even a bit too much.

 

[hso]

Just about any light wrecks your night vision so it doesn't much matter how bright it is as long as it doesn't "wreck" your "day vision".

 

[RTR_RTR]

If it's night your day vision doesn't do you much good *shrug* It's a different level of force but a similar application - I'd rather spray someone than flash them with a light at night

Edit: I will say I can definitely see better flashlight application at a distance if your bat signal is really going off on someone and you want to hightail it away, but I consistently avoid bright beam for anything close up at night because it leaves me with next to no vision

 

[Rexster]

If it's night your day vision doesn't do you much good *shrug* It's a different level of force but a similar application - I'd rather spray someone than flash them with a light at night

Edit: I will say I can definitely see better flashlight application at a distance if your bat signal is really going off on someone and you want to hightail it away, but I consistently avoid bright beam for anything close up at night because it leaves me with next to no vision

I am not a fan of the back-splash, or mist arising from back-splash, of OC spray. OC can certainly be useful, sometimes, but I find light to be very useful, and in 28 years of big-city policin' on night shift, have used light countless times to persuade, dissuade, direct, and otherwise deter folks. I have deployed and used OC one time. (I have used "conducted energy" about ten times, which is more a substitute for a baton strike, though one Taser deployment would have probably been OK for OC.)

My biggest gripe with OC is that it can be difficult to pre-arrange that the wind blow in one's favor. Even when using a stream of OC, the mist arising from back-splash will drift with the lightest breeze.

The good thing about light, is that if it does reduce one's night vision for a while, it can serve to light one's way after the event.

One trick to saving one's night vision is to avoid focusing one's eyes on the brightest portion of a light; keep the brightest area in one's peripheral vision as much as possible/practical.

My newest, and much-favored lights, are my working pair of the Surefire LX2 Digital Lumamax, which offer a choice of two levels of power. When I temporarily misplaced my first one, I bought a second, in spite of the substantial cost; now I have two of them. The first level of pressure produces a nice beam that is not excessive, while firmer pressure produces something like 200 lumens. The switch on the end is momentary; one twists the tailcap to get constant light, which is fine with me, as I so rarely desire constant-on light.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Years ago there was a big problem in my town when the police used some sort of spray on a rowdy drunk at a concert. I don't know if it was peper spray or Mace but the fumes were enough that the band up on the stage could not preform and they left with several thousand people demanding a refund.

 

[Kynoch]

Years ago there was a big problem in my town when the police used some sort of spray on a rowdy drunk at a concert. I don't know if it was peper spray or Mace but the fumes were enough that the band up on the stage could not preform and they left with several thousand people demanding a refund.

How does mace differ from pepper spray?

 

[Sam1911]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_(spray)
Mace is traditionally CN tear gas - phenacyl chloride.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OC_spray
Pepper spray is Oleoresin Capsicum, extracted from pepper plants.