Tamara
Senior Member
Gray_Fallen,
Such as?
Such as?
If you had to
- Thread starter Lord Soth
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Sir Galahad
member
In Africa, considerations such as which makes better arrowheads: oil drums or corrugated metal roofing. Which makes the better spear head: truck fenders or old files. 
Just where have the modern wars where swords have been used been? There are some African tribes that have gone beyond the machete and actually made a short sword, but it's nothing like what the West calls a "sword". And Africa is the only place where these weapons are being used fairly regularly. It does show a fascinating resolve to kill other humans in the absence of firearms, though, doesn't it?
Just where have the modern wars where swords have been used been? There are some African tribes that have gone beyond the machete and actually made a short sword, but it's nothing like what the West calls a "sword". And Africa is the only place where these weapons are being used fairly regularly. It does show a fascinating resolve to kill other humans in the absence of firearms, though, doesn't it?stevelyn
Member
First choice would be a Scottish basket-hilt broadsword. Second choice would be a Zulu short shafted spear I think it' called an asai.
Dave Markowitz
Member
Close -- it's "assegai," which is sort of a generic term for spear in southern Africa, IIRC.
The Zulus' shortened assegai was named the "iklwa," after the sound it made when being pulled out of somebody. The iklwa was introduced by Shaka and employed much like the Romans used the Gladius, as a short stabbing weapon.
Different styles of fighting.
Rapiers were weapons carried by 'gentlemen' and intended for foot use. They were light, long and not good slashing weapons, the blade could easily break. Like many of today's weapons, rapiers were often brandished but few really knew how to use them. They were the equivalent of a cowboy's sidearm-more for emergencies and self-defense, than a weapon for war.
Sabers -both straight and curved were meant for use from horseback, they had heavier blades for deep cuts and slashes -something not possible with a rapier. Sabers were also meant for thrusting use -but more like a lance rather than a footman's sword. Developed shortly after the introduction of the stirrup, sabers are a true military weapon.
Jim March
Member
Ummm....well what I know so far is that any kydex thicker than .125" can indeed stop serious sword blows. Won't do squat for bullets though, unless we're talking 22short.
Basically, if you used kydex armor on the legs and arms and the *very* best ballistic armor on the torso (modern grades that at least resist blade penetration, some do these days) you'd have quite the combination. Not street-practical if we're talking about trying to get "Medieval-knight-grade" coverage. BUT I've worn quite comfortable plastic elbow-forearm and knee-shin motorcycle armor pieces for entire days at a time. The knee-shin bits can be worn under ordinary jeans and don't look odd until you sit
- even then, not too noticable. The elbow/forearm bits are worn under a jacket and again, not noticable. Both are retained with elastic/velcro straps.
I crashed a motorcycle once at fairly high speed wearing such. Mebbe 50mph, rolled for about 75 feet, got up literally without a scratch. When the CHP finally showed up, they couldn't figure out why I was fine (and working on my bike), until I took my jacket off revealing the armor. These were bike cops, and one said to the other "hey, Garcia could have used that stuff last week!" . An elbow piece was deeply scratched, and one of the knee cups was cracked right down the middle...I wouldn't have walked away from that one without the armor. I also had interlocking plastic plate spine armor but that wasn't a factor in this particular wreck.
Those were in high-impact plastic that a Khukuri could probably cleave but the same stuff could be home-brewed in heavy grade kydex quite easily. You could raise your forearm overhead and stop an overhead blow from a saber, khuk or similar and it would come as a total shock to the assailant if you had a light jacket on concealing the armor. Use a layer of 1/4" neoprene foam underneath for comfort and padding...or yes, in theory you could use a layer of ballistic kevlar under the kydex for padding and bullet protection but then weight goes up, flexibility down. Plus it might get a tad hot.
In each case, the elbow "cup" must be separate from the forearm piece and linked with straps. They can overlap a bit but they must be separate for flexibility. Ditto the "knee cup" and shin piece.
The plastic motorcycle crash armor I've worn had zero effect on mobility. .160 grade kydex would be slightly heavier, but not enough to matter so long as the coverage area was LOW. You'd have the ability to shift the hidden armor to meet an incoming edged threat, whereas on the medieval battlefield they were trying to stop arrows addressed "to whom it may concern"
.
Also available from better motorcycle shops: leather gloves with hard carbon fiber armor across the knuckles (whoa!) and fingers. I don't think I need to elaborate on the potential offensive capabilities. As defense against a sword/knife to the wrist, not so good...you'd have to add kydex panels in "plate form" against the backs of the wrist/hand to retain flexibility.
Basically, if you used kydex armor on the legs and arms and the *very* best ballistic armor on the torso (modern grades that at least resist blade penetration, some do these days) you'd have quite the combination. Not street-practical if we're talking about trying to get "Medieval-knight-grade" coverage. BUT I've worn quite comfortable plastic elbow-forearm and knee-shin motorcycle armor pieces for entire days at a time. The knee-shin bits can be worn under ordinary jeans and don't look odd until you sit
- even then, not too noticable. The elbow/forearm bits are worn under a jacket and again, not noticable. Both are retained with elastic/velcro straps.I crashed a motorcycle once at fairly high speed wearing such. Mebbe 50mph, rolled for about 75 feet, got up literally without a scratch. When the CHP finally showed up, they couldn't figure out why I was fine (and working on my bike), until I took my jacket off revealing the armor. These were bike cops, and one said to the other "hey, Garcia could have used that stuff last week!"
. An elbow piece was deeply scratched, and one of the knee cups was cracked right down the middle...I wouldn't have walked away from that one without the armor. I also had interlocking plastic plate spine armor but that wasn't a factor in this particular wreck.Those were in high-impact plastic that a Khukuri could probably cleave but the same stuff could be home-brewed in heavy grade kydex quite easily. You could raise your forearm overhead and stop an overhead blow from a saber, khuk or similar and it would come as a total shock to the assailant if you had a light jacket on concealing the armor. Use a layer of 1/4" neoprene foam underneath for comfort and padding...or yes, in theory you could use a layer of ballistic kevlar under the kydex for padding and bullet protection but then weight goes up, flexibility down. Plus it might get a tad hot.
In each case, the elbow "cup" must be separate from the forearm piece and linked with straps. They can overlap a bit but they must be separate for flexibility. Ditto the "knee cup" and shin piece.
The plastic motorcycle crash armor I've worn had zero effect on mobility. .160 grade kydex would be slightly heavier, but not enough to matter so long as the coverage area was LOW. You'd have the ability to shift the hidden armor to meet an incoming edged threat, whereas on the medieval battlefield they were trying to stop arrows addressed "to whom it may concern"
.Also available from better motorcycle shops: leather gloves with hard carbon fiber armor across the knuckles (whoa!) and fingers. I don't think I need to elaborate on the potential offensive capabilities
. As defense against a sword/knife to the wrist, not so good...you'd have to add kydex panels in "plate form" against the backs of the wrist/hand to retain flexibility.CatsDieNow
Member
Bonker- I did quite a bit of fencing myself, but you have to remember that when you are "unbeatable" you have a referee who not only stops the action, but also awards points and declares a winner. Combat isn't quite like that.
Have to agree with the "faster is better" crowd. I'd be willing to bet I could do some serious damage with a modern sharpened fencing sabre at 21 ounces. I would be in serious trouble, however, if someone managed to connect with a bigger sword before bleeding out from the dozen cuts that I landed first.
Jim - The kevlar that was used when I was fencing was rated at 1600N (more now, I think) and stopped all kinds of point attacks - except for the one where the blade broke and splintered. That one went clean through the front and the back of both my jacket and plastron. Most women now wear plastic (kydex?) chest protectors under the kevlar and that eliminates much of the pain without sacrificing too much mobility. I'm not sure how that would stand up to a sharp blade though. The blunt ones had a tendency to travel along the plastic and up under my mask once in a while.
Have to agree with the "faster is better" crowd. I'd be willing to bet I could do some serious damage with a modern sharpened fencing sabre at 21 ounces. I would be in serious trouble, however, if someone managed to connect with a bigger sword before bleeding out from the dozen cuts that I landed first.
Jim - The kevlar that was used when I was fencing was rated at 1600N (more now, I think) and stopped all kinds of point attacks - except for the one where the blade broke and splintered. That one went clean through the front and the back of both my jacket and plastron. Most women now wear plastic (kydex?) chest protectors under the kevlar and that eliminates much of the pain without sacrificing too much mobility. I'm not sure how that would stand up to a sharp blade though. The blunt ones had a tendency to travel along the plastic and up under my mask once in a while.
Penforhire
Member
As a past fencer I go with the faster-is-better crowd. I'd pick something like a long rapier since I agree speed kills and the well-done lunge against an unarmored foe is nearly unbeatable. I suspect the Japanese did/do have a better sword fighting system but I never studied it.
As far as fencing not being a reflection of true fighting, you should recall that right-of-way rules are in place partly to simulate the activity of mortal combat. So a clean stoke after a beat would have worked in real life too...
And if some percentage of foes were really well armored and armed with possible rapier-snapping weapons I'd have to go with a blunt back-up weapon, a heavy hammer of some sort.
As far as fencing not being a reflection of true fighting, you should recall that right-of-way rules are in place partly to simulate the activity of mortal combat. So a clean stoke after a beat would have worked in real life too...
And if some percentage of foes were really well armored and armed with possible rapier-snapping weapons I'd have to go with a blunt back-up weapon, a heavy hammer of some sort.
CatsDieNow
Member
Beat-counterattack/pris-de-fer, maybe so, but that would depend on your opponents momentum. That's exactly how I got the blade though my shoulder. She had an established point-in-line (non-fencers - straight line from her shoulder to tip of blade pointed at my valid target) which I beat (and gained the right-of-way) and then made a cut to her hand - my point. Unfortunatly, the tip of her blade caught my knee and bent upward in such a fashion that when the blade snapped, she sank her sabre right up to the guard into my right shoulder. Won the battle but, lost the war.
Simultanous action is a not a do-over in real life. I am also allowed to run at my opponent with a sabre in my hand, grab his blade, cover or displace valid target. In epee, which has no right-of-way, I don't think that the 50 microsecond scoring window is going to have much effect on stopping my opponents momentum, but it's still my point.
Fencing doesn't simulate my fighting tactics very well - I'd prefer to avoid the situation altogether or if I must fight, to fight "dirty".
Penforhire
Member
Well, from that point of view I suppose some throwing knives would be nice.
The one time I crossed foils with an ex-olympic fencer I was stunned by his reaction and thrust speed. He had an upper-body-only lunge that was too fast for me to defend. Inhuman is the only way I can describe it, as I have always had well above-average reaction speed.
Ouch on that broken blade! Not the first time I've heard of it but was she slow to stop her attack or did you force yourself that far onto the blade (to the guard)?
The one time I crossed foils with an ex-olympic fencer I was stunned by his reaction and thrust speed. He had an upper-body-only lunge that was too fast for me to defend. Inhuman is the only way I can describe it, as I have always had well above-average reaction speed.
Ouch on that broken blade! Not the first time I've heard of it but was she slow to stop her attack or did you force yourself that far onto the blade (to the guard)?
Andrew Wyatt
Member
considering that a person is more likely to have to use their edged weapon for other chores than cleaving people in twain, i'd pick a blade that has general purpose functions, but yet has utility for defensive purposes.
If I were likely to face another man with a blade, i'd probably carry a duelling bowie, with brass spine, spanish notch, and brass guard. such a knife would be useful for general camp chores and whatnot, and would be excellent for defense.
if i was not going to face another man with a blade, i'd carry a kukri. it's versitile, and does camp chores very well.
If I were likely to face another man with a blade, i'd probably carry a duelling bowie, with brass spine, spanish notch, and brass guard. such a knife would be useful for general camp chores and whatnot, and would be excellent for defense.
if i was not going to face another man with a blade, i'd carry a kukri. it's versitile, and does camp chores very well.
Feanaro
Member
A katana, preferably one of the basic Cold Steel models. It's not very original but a katana is VERY good at cutting unarmored opponents down and, when practiced with, is lightening fast.
I would NOT choose a European style sword because to me they simply don't offer much more power, from what I can tell, compared to a katana. They could be used against people with armor but how many people today are walking around in suits of plate maille? (Then again when would I ever actually use the sword today?)
And a rapier is simply not my style, it is fast and light but people who have been stabbed with it ten, twenty times have continued to fight on. It will bleed them out, oh yes. But they might bleed out AFTER they kill YOU. I am with the bigger-so-long-as-it-isn't-too-slow crowd.
However I would rather have a mace as a backup, truely. It might not be fast but it will crush flesh, bone and anything covering the flesh and bone. It's small and with good training, again, it can be fast. Very close range though.
I would NOT choose a European style sword because to me they simply don't offer much more power, from what I can tell, compared to a katana. They could be used against people with armor but how many people today are walking around in suits of plate maille? (Then again when would I ever actually use the sword today?)
And a rapier is simply not my style, it is fast and light but people who have been stabbed with it ten, twenty times have continued to fight on. It will bleed them out, oh yes. But they might bleed out AFTER they kill YOU. I am with the bigger-so-long-as-it-isn't-too-slow crowd.
However I would rather have a mace as a backup, truely. It might not be fast but it will crush flesh, bone and anything covering the flesh and bone. It's small and with good training, again, it can be fast. Very close range though.
brownie0486
Member
If I have a long sword type weapon I'll probably be inclined to point the arms, hands, neck area.
The threats come from hands and arms, I see no need to reach in to his core and expose myself to damage while slashing.
Having some training in the long blades [ Bowies ],we were shown to use the pointing techniques and utilize the reach the longer knife [ sword, Bowies, etc. ] posseses. If you slash with a longer blade you are giving up the advantage of reach it possesses and might as well carry something smaller.
Armor? They'll need to wear it on their arms and protect the neck as well, otherwise their body armor won't be a target I go for.
Brownie
The threats come from hands and arms, I see no need to reach in to his core and expose myself to damage while slashing.
Having some training in the long blades [ Bowies ],we were shown to use the pointing techniques and utilize the reach the longer knife [ sword, Bowies, etc. ] posseses. If you slash with a longer blade you are giving up the advantage of reach it possesses and might as well carry something smaller.
Armor? They'll need to wear it on their arms and protect the neck as well, otherwise their body armor won't be a target I go for.
Brownie
Tamara
Senior Member
You know, I believed that whole katana-as-ubersword thing until I played with a few examples of good 15th Century European bastard swords. These hand-and-a-half swords, when done right, display nearly perfect balance combined with fearsome cutting power, long reach, and scary speed. The blade, while heavier than that on a rapier and lighter than that on either an older arming sword or a true zweihander, tends to be well balanced by a serious pommel, and just begs one to cut or stab something with it.
Interestingly, if one follows baseball, compare the size and weight of the bats of the great sluggers of the past with the ones used by, say, Barry Bonds or Gary Sheffield. A lighter bat (as long as it is still structurally sound enough) can be swung much faster and harder. I think about this every time a casual swing of the wrist and forearm sends the tip of my replica 15th C. bastard sword literally whistling through the air.
Interestingly, if one follows baseball, compare the size and weight of the bats of the great sluggers of the past with the ones used by, say, Barry Bonds or Gary Sheffield. A lighter bat (as long as it is still structurally sound enough) can be swung much faster and harder. I think about this every time a casual swing of the wrist and forearm sends the tip of my replica 15th C. bastard sword literally whistling through the air.
A
AnklePocket
Guest
That's an easy one:
A Wally Hayes Tsunami or similar item. There's one at http://www.bladeart.com/main_swords.htm or more can be seen at http://www.hayesknives.com .
A Wally Hayes Tsunami or similar item. There's one at http://www.bladeart.com/main_swords.htm or more can be seen at http://www.hayesknives.com .
Feanaro
Member
I've seen several demonstrations of those things and they seem, to use the phrase, wicked. But I prefer the longer grip of the katana. That and they look much cooler.
It all depends on what you like and how you are going to use the sword. As a last ditch weapon a katana can easily be drawn and cut with. A hand-and-a-half cannot, AFAIK, do this so easily. Then again H&H can be used better for other purposes.Andrew Wyatt
Member
I changed my mind. A sword cane would be the way to go IMHO.
GlocksRock
Member
I would pack a samurai sword, and get some serious hardcore training for it. Iaido and/or kendo training would be great.
Marko Kloos
Moderator Emeritus
I'd be happy with a good, pragmatic Mainz or Pompeii pattern Gladius. Easy to carry around on a permanent basis, longer reach than any knife, and useful even in tight quarters and/or against multiple assailants, where one may not have the space to make a nice arc with a 35" katana blade.
As an alternative, a rapier would be a fast, long-reaching, and stylish weapon for the gentleman as well.
As an alternative, a rapier would be a fast, long-reaching, and stylish weapon for the gentleman as well.
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