If you handload, is there such a thing as an "overkill" round?

[gamestalker]

You can achieve this with much less gun. Nothing at all wrong with a .338 WM, but it's an awful lot of gun for deer sized game. Personally, a 7mm RM will cover all your bases, and with a bit more flexibility to tailor down for smaller game, deer, antelope and such. Also makes for a good long range varmint cartridge too.

I wouldn't consider a .338 to be over kill, but it's up there among the big bore class cartridges. And even with most average hunting grade loads, it's going to be a hand full regarding recoil, IMO. Put it this way, many African big game guides consider a .338 as acceptable for thick skinned and dangerous game, so.

GS

 

[LAGS]

Would you consider a 25-06 with a 120 gr bullet for Squirrel at 100 yards ,"Overkill " ?
Teach that little Bugger to squeek at me when I am sitting on a good water tank for deer.
Took his head clean off, and I took him back to camp for dinner.
I threw him on the grill and walked around the camp singing, " Chipmunks roasting on an open fire"

 

[oldpapps]

"If you handload, is there such a thing as an "overkill" round?"

Everything has a use.

One year I went deer hunting with a .375 H&H. Was it your 'overkill', no. I was loaded with 285 grain case lead running around 1750 FPS.

Where I live a 'real' hunting bullet in a .375 H&H is not needed. A 300 grain full patched bullet will go on and on, leaving only a big hole. An unneeded waste of bullet energy.

Would I use my .375 H&H if I lived or were privileged enough to hunt in an area with those big bears, no. I have a Ruger Number 1 and the pucker factor with only one shot out weighs my expected accuracy.

Overkill, no, maybe wasted energies.

 

[hatt]

Any flaws in my logic?

Yep. It's not that difficult to have a few rifles more ideally suited to the task. No such thing as a do all rifle. Why lug around a 26 inch barrel .338 mag with high powered scope when hunting deer in thick woods. Clearly cost isn't an issue if you're contemplating Alaskan hunts.

 

[Grassman]

With the right shot placement, you could take down a brown bear with a 22lr.

 

[ball3006]

I load for my TC Contender pistol in 45-70. The load I worked up shoots clover leafs at 50 yards. It is dead on at 50 yards, 2 inches high at 100 yards and dead on at 150 yards. The deer I shot was 30 yards away. The recoil is an adventure....chris3

 

[35Remfan]

No OverKill for a handloader with a large Medium-bore rifle.

I see some logic to your thinking that during a panic the larger 338 and 375 components and even factory loads seem to hang around longer than the 30 cal stuff.

For the guy who wants to buy a 375 H&H (it would be my pick from the options you list) it certainly is overkill for deer and medium size game with factory loads. The handloader can load down to more reasonable levels for deer and then go back up again for the large and even dangerous stuff.

My only concern for your logic is the weight of the gun for hunting and maybe sound level for shooting and hunting. I am not a fan of muzzlebrakes and would not have one on my rifles. But you can find a 375 H&H without one I am sure. Weight is something you will have to just learn to live with.

I would love to have a 375 and I am a handloader as well.

By the way I like your personal website.

 

[Nom de Forum]

While I enjoy shooting shotguns far more than centerfire rifles, there are some hunting situations where a rifle simply works better.

With that in mind, and as part of an ongoing effort to build an efficient gun collection that covers all hunting niches with as few firearms as possible, I'm considering investing in a singe medium and big game rifle capable of taking all North American game at reasonable distances. Should the opportunities present themselves, I'd like to be covered for everything from western elk hunting and Alaska moose hunting to close range deer hunting.

Even though such rounds seem on the surface to be "overkill" for most of what I would be hunting, if I'm going to have one rifle for medium and large game, I'm increasingly eying the powerful medium bore rounds like .338 win mag, the 9.3x62mm, and some of the .375s. I'm shying away from the .30 cal rounds as handling components for them seem to get hit hard and fast by panics, while medium bore stuff sticks around a little longer.

I'm thinking that since I handload, I could load such beasts down to comfortable levels for deer hunting and load back up for tougher game. Any flaws in my logic?

Some North American game considers you game. If you can accept using a less than optimal cartridge when confronting them then choose the .30-06. For versatility you want a .30-06 is what you want due to bullet selection from lead round ball to 220 solids. If you are too "shy" to take the risk of component availability or being eaten go with a .375 H&H.

 

[Jason_W]

A lot of good points were made here. Thanks for the feedback. factoring heavily into my firearms acquisition plans will be where we end up moving. That part of the equation is still a bit up in the air. If we stay here in the northeast, I'll stick with using a shotgun for deer.

 

[aka108]

I see a lot of guys sighting in some big ass cartridge sizes for shooting deer here in Florida and Georgia. Very seldom does one get a clear shot at over 100 yards. Most deer are taken at about 50 yards. The deer are about Great Dane sized. 30-30 will do the job all day long as it has for years and won't turn the deer into jelly. To me, anything over the 30-30 for our deer is absolute overkill.

 

[WVRJ]

One caliber that is so overlooked is the 35's.Bullets for them are always available,and I've always wondered what a 300 win mag necked up to 35 would do...

 

[Trent]

About as close as you'd get to that WVRJ:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.358_Norma_Magnum

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

Rule # 37
There is no "overkill"...

(It's a Schlock thing.)

 

[Salmoneye]

.45-70 in a lever action...

 

[conrad427]

I have a 30-06 and a 45-70 and some others. I like having the right tool for the job. Having said that, I have always been interested in the .325 wsm. If I had to have just one for everything you mentioned it would the .325 WSM, I don't have one yet but I think it is the best of the WSM series.

 

[Andrew Leigh]

I hunt and live in Africa. I will probably in my lifetime never afford to shoot any of the Big 5 species but I bought a .375H&H.

So why you may ask?

Firstly it is the quintessential African Game calibre. Yeah I know there are doubles, .458 etc. etc. But guides tend to carry something a lot heavier as when they are called on the proverbial has hit the fan and some real stopping power is required.

Secondly as a hunter I feel that a .375 is a must for any personal arsenal. I took the .375 over the 9.3mm as if I ever got the chance for a Buffalo I could get refused as a 9.3mm shooter, the .375 is widely considered as the minimum. The .375 also rounds out my arsenal of classic calibres, 6.5X55mm, 30-06 and .375. If I can afford it I can now shoot it.

Thirdly I wanted to have weapon more suited to taking down a large Eland bull. My 30-06 would do it with Accubonds, would do it better with a mono but if a shot presented where bone needed smashing the .375 unquestionably would do it.

Fourthly it is an accurate calibre and I know a couple of shooters who take it out to 300m.

Finally I simply wanted one and when a near new Sako came up for sale a great price it was an impulse buy at a time that I was not seriously considering a purchase.

I am satisfied and believe it or not the recoil from the .375 has actually improved my shooting as one needs to be a little more circumspect when firing.

 

[Riomouse911]

The best thing about living in the US is there are a zillion different caliber/rifle/load combos one can assemble and use to their hearts' content. dreaming about the next gun/caliber is fun, and it seems like you are taking your time with it.

Every person will feel that caliber "X" is perfect for the chosen game , while caliber "W" is too little and caliber "Y" is too much for the game sought. Another neat thing about the US, we all have an opinion, and the majority of them are going to be pretty consistent along these lines.

None of the ideas floated are bad ones; if one wants a "North American one rifle, all game" caliber the 7mm mags, .30-06, .300 mags, etc are perfect for that, especially if one does not reload and may visit the Antelope grasslands one year, the hardwoods of Georgia the next, and then head to Alaska for a moose or a mountain sheep. Others like to tailor the gun to the game so they have a quiver of different guns and calibers to select from. Nothing is wrong with either style, IMHO, it just depends on your budget.

For your "medium bore" all around gun, the posters with the .35 Whelen idea are right on the money. The recoil is not as bad as the .338 Win, bullets hit hard and with 225gr X bullets it shoots almost as flat as a .30-06 to 300 yrds. Load it with 158 gr pistol bullets an 10 gr Red Dot for plinking, and 200 gr RN at .35 Remington velocities for Eastern hunting...truly the medium bore "one gun that does it all", and you really can't ask for anything more than that.

If you plan on visiting Africa someday, the .375 H&H can do all the .35 Whelen can in North America and in Africa as well. A bit heavier and guns and components are a bit more costly, but it has done the trick for a long, long time.

Have fun shopping!

 

[shadow9]

Jason_W - I JUST went through this entire debate myself, looking for a one do-it all - see the "Ruger Guide Gun Review" post a bit above.

Through a WHOLE lot of different ideas, I finally settled on the ol' '06.

As Art said, you can download to squirrel loads with 00 buck. You can dial it up to deer @ 150's, and I've got a pack of Woodleigh 240's that could be used on very heavy game. Components are EVERYWHERE, and the .30 cal has perhaps the BEST bullet selection of any of the calibers - and it's bullet construction with bullet placement that often wins the game.

The '06 is cast friendly as well - and will eat less lead per shot than the .375 or .338 series, as well as having less recoil, and using less powder (arguably).
I've seen '06 as one of the fastest of the calibers to return to shelves out of ALL the calibers during the "panic" period here. You can find it in nearly ANY corner of the globe - whereas I haven't seen .375 outside of LGSs. (my local true value carries 9mm, .38 Special, .30-06, .270 and 7mm Rem Mag)

I went with the Guide Gun specifically because of the shorter length (easier to pack and go through bush), laminate stock (more stable, adds weight to lessen recoil), and the stainless finish. The CRF bolt action is handy for keeping your brass close (as push-feed vs. crf "reliability" is the same deceased equine as "9mm vs .45"), and the action keeps 4+1, with solid bottom metal and no magazines to lose. The adjustable buttpad is great for going from summer shooting (1-2 spacers) to winter shooting (no spacers, bulky clothing), and the muzzle brake cuts down on a LOT of recoil (at the expense of a bit of noise). Brake removable too.
Attach a scope and the .30 cal should be able to reach out to any reasonable hunting distance, even with the shorter barrel. Are 500yd shots on the table? Well, that has more to do with shooter in this case - but personally I'd rather take a 500yd shot with a steady 26" magnum pushing heavy high-BC bullets, peeking through some appropriate glass than through a carbine sporting a 3-9x40. In a pinch though, I figured the .30-06 had the punch to get a higher BC pill to a reasonable distance and the weight do do work once it arrives.

I looked into the .45-70 as a DIA caliber, but found that for 350-400gr of lead it did the same trick as a .30-06 with 180gr(at less than mulekicker loads), and with a more arched trajectory. .375, while classic, isn't as common for components, and as others have said - a well placed (and well constructed) .30 will do a nice trick on many creatures.

If we want to open up the "big bear" category - shot placement rules all. There are stories of .22LR killing a bear with a opportune head shot, and others where a magazine and a half of .300 wby mag didn't do much more than disturb the bear while it attacked someone. The only caliber I've heard ANY sort of reliable drops on bear with is .45-70 @ marlin to ruger loads, and 12ga slugs at close range.

 

[B!ngo]

Pardon the rookie question but in this context is a 338 win mag the same as a 338 lapua? And if not, why is the 338 lapua not often mentioned in these 'big animal' hunting contexts? Is the cartridge too big and destructive? The guns too big? Too small? Just asking.
I've taken a liking to it's capabilities for long range shooting and was wondering if it could be 'justified' for a few different use cases.
And sorry if this is a big detour.
B

 

[hatt]

If you're planning on hunting big game at very long ranges the .338 Lapua may come in handy. The other 99% of the time you'll be lugging around a needlessly large and powerful rifle.

 

[epoletna]

I like how you include the words "efficient" and "gun collection" in the same sentence. That will surely throw off the people who don't understand why every one of us wants to fill 3 safes and still have a few rifles standing in the closet. Oh, but you didn't fool me -- I know exactly what you mean.

Now -- on to business. I own a .375 H&H that I used on everything from dik-dik (dog-sized antelope) to elephant when I lived and hunted in east Africa. It was good for everything, and since I brought it home to the USA I've used it for some 1,000 yard target shooting. It's a damn hard caliber to beat. But it is not a lightweight rifle for the elk mountains. And it is not one that you will put 3 boxes of ammo through at the range, unless sore shoulders and headaches are of no concern to you.

I have also owned a 9.3X62. Good cartridge, and one that could have been used on just about anything I used the .375 for except elephant. But it would have been fine for Cape buffalo.

But here's the thing -- I also carried a 7mm Rem Mag in east Africa, and properly loaded (Nosler partitions or German military solids), it too would have done for anything except elephant. And it would have been easier to carry and damaged a lot less venison on white tail deer. In fact I'd second what someone said above -- the 7X57 or .270 would be a fine all-'round rifle or you with the possible exception of bear.

Oh, and just to confuse matters for you, if you're going to go with 7 mm, you really ought to look at the 6.5 in various guises. That caliber is just plain accurate, (I own a 6.5X55 Swede and a 6.5-06 on a Mauser action) accurate, accurate. It's uncanny how accurate the 6.5 is and how good a game-getter the 140 gr bullet by Sierra, Nosler or Berger is. Hard to beat.

So, bottom line, what would I recommend for you? I think 7mm Rem Mag. That'll give a lot of readers something to argue with.