If you live in a rough city, this is what you train for

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If the guy was leaving the bar he should have called a cab from inside the bar. Walk out, jump in, and go home. There is absolutely no way I'm going walking through the hood in the middle of the night, carrying or not. I would say what I think of those attackers but it wouldn't be very high road. :fire:
 
1st ... Hope they are doing ok!

2nd.... As stated! " Get in Shark infested Waters..You Will Get Bit" !

3rd..... Education at high expense!

4th ..... If by some random series of unfortunate events I found myself in a situation like this...(doubtful).... (edited to remove non-THR material)

5th.....For all the "Good" in Youtube! This is a prime example of the "Bad" and Youtube should not promote it! (IMO)

I am all for the Freedoms our constitution gives us...speech! etc., but our constitution also protects us individually from harm, and when a video is a tool to create harm on an individual, the videographer should be held accountable as well as everyone involved!

This is no isolated incident in the youth of today...from bullying to just down right menace on unsuspecting individuals, and gang related attacks. It is a "high" to be video taped hurting someone these days.

I DONT GET IT! :cuss:
 
3 to 2 isn't really outnumbered.

If you want to be beaten, don't carry a gun. If you don't want beaten, carry a gun. Simple as that. If you don't have Concealed Carry Rights in your state, fight for them. If you don't have a Castle Doctrine that protects you from the commission of a Felony where ever you have a legal right to be, then fight for that too. Virginia has a castle doctrine, but not a good one:

The Castle Doctrine and Virginia
There are some basic rules that all lawyers learn in law school. First, there is a duty to retreat when faced with danger. Second, if the danger finds you in your house there is no duty to retreat, because the presumption is that you've retreated as far as any person should have to. Thus, the castle doctrine (a man's home is his castle) allows defense of habitation as an extension of defense of self. Of course every State has its own variations on these rules and Virginia looks like it's about to add some new wrinkles to its version.

History:

Virginia's common law has developed two types self defense which are in some ways broader and in other ways narrower than the castle doctrine. In "justifiable" self defense, a person is allowed to stand his ground anywhere, so long as he did not in any way provoke the aggression, and defend himself. In "excusable" self defense a person is somewhat at fault for the aggression and in this case he is required to retreat as far as safely possible before he can legally defend himself.1 This is further limited in that a person can only use "reasonable" force when attacked.2 Generally, this means that if the aggressor is using fists the defender can only use fists. It also means that there must be a threat to a person, not just property.

On top of all this is another line of cases which allow a landowner to order those illegally on his property to leave and if the trespasser does not leave to use "proper" force to expel the intruder from his land. However, this is limited in that the landowner is subject to a "breach of the peace in the outset" test. If there is such a breach the landowner may not continue to use force to expel the intruder. One case seems to say that this allows a property owner, who has given a prior warning to a trespasser on his chattels or realty, to threaten deadly force, but perhaps not to actually use it.3

General Assembly:

The Virginia House of Delegates has passed a bill which would enact a form of the Castle Doctrine over top of all this. It hasn't been considered by the Senate yet and who knows if it will pass and be signed into law and in what form it would finally appear. However, we do have the new statute as it would be if the bill was enacted in its current form:
§ 18.2-91.1. Use of physical force, including deadly force, against an intruder; justified self-defense.

Any person who lawfully occupies a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when the other person has unlawfully entered the dwelling, having committed an overt act toward the occupant or another person in the dwelling, and the occupant reasonably believes he or another person in the dwelling is in imminent danger of bodily injury.

Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, as provided in this section shall be immune from civil liability for injuries or death of the other person who has unlawfully entered the dwelling that results from the use of such force.
Threat Level Required:

This maintains the necessity of a threat against a person. There must be an overt act which makes the defender "reasonably believe" that a person is in "imminent danger of bodily injury." In this it might actually be more restrictive than normal justification self defense. Generally, in Virginia a person who attacks another with his hands is not presumed to mean to cause "injury"; instead, he is just imputed the intent to commit "harm." Of course, these are terms of art in Virginia law. Injury meaning serious internal physical damage (it's a "wound" if the skin is broken - see the post here). "Harm" doesn't seem to have been given a specific definition (at least not in cases I remember), but it has developed into a catch-all which could probably be defined as "pain, minor abrasions, and bruising."

The use of the term "injury" is a bit of untidy drafting; it really should say "wound or injury" to keep the courts from having to jump through interpretational hoops and avoid potentially confusing variant interpretations of terms of art as applied to different statutes.

Nevertheless, I doff my cap to the Delegates for drawing the line where they did. As written, the statute avoids the fairly common scenario of two Yahoos fighting in the front yard and the fight ranging into the residence. Since use of fists does not infer an intent toward bodily injury, the resident cannot legally shoot the other pugilist just because the fistfight crossed a doorway.

Level of Force Allowed:

What this statute clearly does is remove any restrictions that a "reasonable force" requirement might place upon a defender, once the requisite level of threat is reached. However, I'm not sure if this really accomplishes as much as it seems to. Anyone carrying a weapon which could cause bodily wound or injury would generally be presumed to be offering deadly force and therefore could be opposed with the same amount of force. As discussed above, an unarmed intruder wouldn't generally fall under this statute, because of the presumption that he is offering "harm", not "wound or injury." A physical attack can cross the line, but in that case the defender can already defend himself with deadly force under current law.

What This Statute Won't Do:

This statute is limited to the defense of people. It does not allow the use of deadly force in protection of property.
Additions Needed:

1) The language needs to be changed to say "bodily wound or injury."

2) I would like to see language put into it setting up certain presumptions:

a) "The victim of a rape is presumed to have a reasonable belief of danger to
life, even if the assailant is unarmed."

b) "If an intruder breaks into a dwelling after dark, the resident is presumed
to have a reasonable belief of imminent bodily wound or injury and may act
upon this belief without acting to verify or dispel it."
 
I live in richmond and being familiar with that area i would not go down there at night unarmed i think to many people frequent that part of the city unaware of just how dangerous it is i hope the victims have a speedy recovery
 
Im not sure if I agree with the comments about "wrong side of the city"

Those guys look like hipsters. You know, the upper middle class white people that thinking going to a rough part of a city is cool and nothing will happen to them. Even so, what I saw was an unprovoked attack. It was vicious and cruel, and should not happen to anyone.

At the same time, we know that alot of areas even in our own communities are getting rougher. Movie theaters, malls at night, etc. So when the wrong part of the city becomes the wrong part of your neighborhood becomes your mall we need to have an honest discussion about situational awareness that could happen to anyone who has the misfortune of dealing with these dirtbags.

-M
 
Solution: A swift kick in the face of the first attacker as he tries to climb up the wall.
 
I could easily see some person saying "We were just gonna play with the guy, having fun with a video camera and he just started shooting"

If the victim had turned and drawn a gun on these idiots, it's not likely that they would have continued the attack. If they did attack him and he opened fire, the film might be an asset, IMO. An attack by multiple assailants meets the legal threshold for using deadly force in most states, I believe.
And thats why we shooters carry a 1911 9mm or some other CCW gun.
 
If it were me, once I started running and they started running after me, I would have drawn and kept running. If they caught up to me and started actively striking me or trying to pull me to the ground, I'm gonna be doing some very close or press contact shots. I HAVE PROBABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE that multiple people chasing me at night for reasons unknown is a threat to my life, therefore I will act as aforementioned.
 
heeler said:
Unfortunately this young man also comes from a generation that generally is taught little or nothing about the art of self defense as through out most of his years at public school he would have been hung out to dry so to speak if he did fight.
That is light years from what a lot of young men learned in the days of their youth growing up in the 50's,60's,and 70's.
Hell he did not even ATTEMPT to fight back!!
You are right on the mark with this. Most people in their 20's and younger have been taught that fighting back is wrong--you should just give the criminals what they want. They think their safety is the government's responsibility, not their own.

Just look at the policies in schools today--if a kid fights back against a bully, they get as severe of a punishment as the one who initiated the fight.
 
And thats why we shooters carry a 1911 9mm or some other CCW gun.

Indeed. I go with a Glock 23, but that's just me.
 
I gotta say I didn't read anywhere near all of that, but I want to throw in my 2 cents. I agree with what pretty much all of you have been saying. However, I lived in Memphis for a few years; in a sketchy neighborhood no less. If this happened there and it has and worse. If the victim had realized what was about to happen and been carrying and pulled his weapon and fired, it would have been much worse for him than the beating. As previously stated, the thugs would've pulled back and assumed the victim role. The shooter would've been subject to criminal charges. Not because its the right thing to do, but because there would be a public outcry for justice for the "victim(s)". I personally would not want to face a jury for gunning down inner city youths. Prison is preferable to death, but not by a whole lot. (I've worked there too) Sorry for the length, I'm wrapping it up. My point is keep your sons and daughters out of the shady areas after midnight because they will inevitably encounter a lose-lose situation.
 
One thing that strikes me is how cowardly the assailants come off. Coming from behind, larger numbers, not stating intent ("What's up?"), the first assailant grapples, then the others pounce en masse from behind on the downed men. They don't want to fight, they want to hurt someone.

(To me it looks like the second victim had no intention of fighting, but was instead trying to "break up" the fight, then he got punched in the back of the head repeatedly by two of the assailants. By the end there were 4 assailants stomping on the two downed victims.)

I think turning and facing the attackers right away may have helped. Showing them no fear, maybe even smiling ear to ear and saying something like "Can I help you gentleman with something?". Letting them know that you are prepared for conflict, and maybe even looking forward to it.

The two victims were out drinking and one of them was reported to posses CCL but left his firearm at home for the evening. The area is a popular drinking area and these young men were out enjoying themselves as young men do. Saying they should not have been there, or should have had more "situational awareness" is just silly IMO. That same line of thought is what the Anti's use to justify disarming the populace. These things happen, they can not always be avoided, this is why we prepare.

Here's a copy of the video that is somewhat more clear for anyone who is interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxoSOHFxMuY&feature=related
 
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Thank you Fourteenmiles.
I cant watch it now as it is blocked but I will when I get home.
But again to not EVEN fight back just flys in the face of self preservation.
In the event of the young guy having the high ground and not using it to his advantage when one of the assailants had to climb up at least three feet to get at him...Well I just dont get it.
 
I don't even like watching that because it makes me so angry. Whenever a group of people attacks a single person or a situation is presented where the victim(s) are greatly outnumbered, I get hot and find myself grinding my teeth. Especially when 3 of the BG's are beating the victim who happens to be in a position where he has the upper hand (example: the victim is successfully defending himself against 1 attacker and 2 more attackers run up behind him and start wailing on him)

This video actually got me thinking more seriously about carrying a larger caliber/higher capacity weapon. Right now it's just a 5 shot .38spl but I'm looking to step up to a .40
I suppose this video is good incentive for me to buy something better suited for this kind of situation.
 
Things I learned the Hard Way
Most importantly.
Dont go to stupid places and do stupid things with stupid people.
If Drinking.
1) If you have to go out for a drink, don't do it in questionable neighborhoods.
2) Don't get so intoxicated in public you can't defend yourself.
3) Leaving the Bar, call a cab. This works on too many levels, even if you have to leave your car behind for the night.
4) Want to have one too many, do it at home.
In a confrontation you can't Win?
1) Run as fast as you can to the nearest lighted area. Lights mean people, people mean cops. Look for an open business.
2) Can't possibly get away; fight as dirty as you have to. It's amazing how biting the end off someones nose will take the fight out of them.
3) Dont fall, dont wrestle, punch kick and look for an opening to run again.
4) Even a pen or a pencil is a weapon.
In a public place and see trouble?
1) You aint Galahad and it isn't your business. Don't insert yourself in to what you dont know, NO MATTER how jacked up it looks from your perspective.
2) Got a Cell Phone? Use it.
3) Got a gun and see trouble? Can't get away? Get your gun ready.
4) Got a gun? Carry it, Don't leave home without it. Make sure you can use it, know how to use it, don't fear using it and carry extra ammo.
 
I carry a Large, extremely sharp, folding knife everywhere..
With the exception of school.
A knife is one of the most scary things to have pulled on you, and my spyderco will slice cardboard like butter, I can't imagine what it would do to soft tissue.
It's just unfortunate that I'm not permitted to carry a handgun.. Laws need to change, of course I think it would need to be extremely regulated, and since I have NO record and I have a hunter safety card, I guess there could be a class to take, but honestly in that situation, if I were there, of course 1 or 2 of them would get hurt by me, but 4 men larger then me, a 14 year old kid, 150something pounds.. 5-10" I just can't imagine why those people did that they did, I guess the only thing I could do is run..
The odds of me being able to incapacitate 4 men with a knife, but if that man had anything the outcome would've been better, a gun, a Glock 19 could've scared off or killed all of them..
 
I'm sure my comment will draw heat, but I'm not making any judgements. I really want to, but won't. Did the men that got beat, pop off their mouths back up the street and thought they would be fine down the block? Was something yelled from a car? Altercation in a bar/club and one group was forced to leave? We can only go by what we're seeing. I live in Atlanta, 5'9 and 140lbs soakin wet...a strong wind would blow me over. I have left clubs and bars at very late hours and seen many of hoodlums, thugs, crackheads etc, in areas that look just like this and never had any altercations. IDK, maybe down here we tend to know most everyone is "carrying" in some form or another and stay "courteous". You can bet I stay courteous and respectful when I'm in areas such as these.
 
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