Ignore copper fouling?

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flecky

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Hi Guys

I've been having a chat with my gun smith about a copper fouling in a custom rifle in 260 rem. Ater 200 rounds or so, the barrel is copper lined with only the lands sticking out clean. This is what he wrote back:

"As I think I have suggested to you before, you really should not worry about “copper fouling” and trying to strip it away each time you clean, it will only re-foul on your first two or three shots and then start to shoot to the normal zero."

Is he right?
 
I think yes. I don't bother cleaning copper fouling until accuracy starts degrading.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk
 
No, he is not right.

Copper fouling can only get worse and distroy accuracy if you don't clean it out.

The other thing is, if you do clean it out, the bullets can polish the bore and fouling will become less over time.

If you don't clean it out, the bullets don't touch the bore, they touch the fouling, and it will just continue to build.

rc
 
If going to shoot cast boolits, cleaning the copper fouling out is a must if one wants to get the best accuracy.
 
The people to ask are the real experts: barrel makers, benchrest shooters, and Match shooters.

They all clean the bores to remove copper fouling after every match, and some may clean between stages in a match.
 
Copper fouling

Like RC stated if you care about performance you need to remove the copper often when barrel is new. This allows further rounds to polish the bore so it doesn't have microspic rough spots that will continue to fowl if not removed (called breaking in the bore) try it you'll be pleased with how it shoots and ease of cleaning. Al
 
Get some shooter's choice copper fouling remover and use that. Works great. You could also grab a can of Outers bore foam or Break Free bore foam. Very aggressive stuff and should get out all that copper fouling.
 
All of the old rifle guys at my club say you need to get it out. If left in they claim the bore is not protected from pittling and corrosion because the oil cannot get to the steel because of the copper "plating". There are several good copper solvents that will not damage the steel if used properly. I like Sweet's 7.62 solvent. Stinks really bad but cuts through the copper.
 
Copper fouling

A friend of mine is a metalergist, he says that two different metals like copper and barrel steel left unattended, will cause electrolisis and the steel will be the one that suffers causing pitting. So it's up to the owner to do as he chooses. I clean mine. Al
 
Why worry about it? The foamy cleaners (Gunslick, Wipe-Out, etc) all get copper out just fine with no brushes needed.

I think a lot of "copper fouling" is chewed up bronze brushes reacting with Sweets/Butch's/whatever. I did my own tests about 8 years ago with Sweet's vs. Gunslick foamy cleaner. I took a well used Remington 742 with visible copper at the muzzle and a new-to-me German 98K captured by the Yugos. Cleaned them both with foamy cleaner and patches, nothing more. Went back and cleaned them again with Sweet's 762. No copper left. Good enough for me.

Regards,
Brian in CA

PS I haven't used a brush since then, either - don't see the need with modern cleaning products.
 
I could make a list of cleaners that claim to remove copper, but either don't or do so poorly. I use Pro-Shot Copper Solvent IV. It works.
 
When using Sweets 762 I have used a nylon brush or a bore mop to coat the bore with the cleaner.

Just like brianf said the Sweets or any other copper remover is eating up the brass brush before removing the copper from the bore.
 
Thanks for all your help on this. I've attached his whole reply this time:

First of all let me re-assure you regarding our barrels; we diamond hone these before hammer forging to a Grade 1 surface finish, which if you look carefully you will see very fine fishtail type patina down the bore. The finest of the three stages of diamond honing is pretty much a burnishing operation.
All metals have a grain structure, though very fine and there will be microscopic dimples in the surface as it can never be like float glass! That is sufficient for the traces of copper from the bullet jacket to smear into those depressions, which is what is referred to as “fouling”. Every barrel will “foul” with usually the first three rounds fired, which is why all competitors try to fire off 2 or 3 fouling shots. That is to ensure the bore and the microscopic pores are levelled out with the bullet jacket material. When you use a bronze brush the bristles will largely skip over that fouling that is sitting in the pores of the metal, and it is only the chemical reaction of the bore solvent that will remove it completely. The copper out type bore solvents are very aggressive and in fact tend to de nickel the base metal of the barrel. So, the truth of the matter is that the copper traces that may colour the bore are of no significance as in fact the rifle will not shoot to its established zero until the barrel is fouled with that copper trace material. By over cleaning with copper out you will simply accelerate the wear on the barrel and damage the material and roughen the bore as the nickel traces are etched out by the copper out type chemicals.

As mentioned, it is a 260 remington barrel with a one in eight twist. I shoot 142gr SMKs at 2800 fps and get reliable 4 inch groups at 600yards even after 200 rounds. My cleaning routine up to now has been :
Hoppe's Elite Gun Cleaner followed by KG-12 (awesome stuff) and then a little bit of Montana X-Treme Bore Conditioner which I remove with a dry patch just before shooting.

Like most of you I don't tolerate copper fouling in my rifles but, given its accuracy when dirty and the makers advice, I can't help thinking that I might just leave the copper in until accuracy drops off.
 
Copper and Steel are close in the Galvanic chart.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_series
There should not be much Voltage across the junction, but it looks like steel is the sacrificial anode.

I got a Ruger #1V 223 used from an on line auction. I cleaned the Copper out and it shoots so well, someone was crazy to sell it.

Don't leave Ammonia based solvents in the bore over night. Try that on some barrel steel and see what happens. It gets etched.

I like KG12.
The tests on it have been replicated
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1021318
 
As posted, a heavily fouled barrel can hide damage.

I would be more upset that my "custom" gun is fouling that much. A match barrel should not do that.

To foul to the point of only the rifling showing after 200 rounds boggles my mind.
 
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