IL--Springfield police warning people not to buy Kershaw/Onion "switchblades?"

[Don Gwinn]

Today I was listening to WMAY AM radio when out of the blue I heard a news item stating that the Springfield police department is putting out public warnings that people who have purchased Kershaw/Onion Speed Safe knives ("at an unnamed Springfield store") were guilty of purchase and possession of switchblades, a misdemeanor in Illinois.

The catch is that Speed Safe knives are NOT switchblades under Illinois law. This is the first I've heard of any authority trying to claim such a thing. I have an email in to the station's News Director to find out what's going on and where the story came from. (I called, of course, but he hung up on me because I wasn't on his topic for the show.)

I'll contact Kershaw as well (and Ken, of course) but I thought I'd post a heads up here first.

This is the message I sent:

Just a heads up on the "switchblade" issue Mike read about during tonight's news: Kershaw's Onion series (including the Chive, the Scallion, the Whirlwind and the Blackout) are NOT switchblades according to Illinois law. I don't know what makes the Springfield Police Department say so, but I'm contacting Kershaw tonight on this issue. If SPD chooses to push this, it's going to become another Deja Vu issue.

I'm not saying that police officers should have to be lawyers, but I think they have a duty to check the law and make sure it says what they assume it does before they begin threatening the public with arrest over legal actions.

For the record, the section of Illinois law that deals with "switchblades" can be found at:

http://www.legis.state.il.us/legisl...000050k24-1.htm

Here's the part that really matters: (720 ILCS 5/24-1)(a)(1)

(720 ILCS 5/24-1) (from Ch. 38, par. 24-1)
Sec. 24-1. Unlawful Use of Weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:
(1) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or carries any bludgeon, black-jack, slung-shot, sand-club, sand-bag, metal knuckles, throwing star, or any knife, commonly referred to as a switchblade knife, which has a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife, or a ballistic knife, which is a device that propels a knifelike blade as a projectile by means of a coil spring, elastic material or compressed gas; or
(2) Carries or possesses with intent to use the same unlawfully against another, a dagger, dirk, billy, dangerous knife, razor, stiletto, broken bottle or other piece of glass, stun gun or taser or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument of like character; or
(3) Carries on or about his person or in any vehicle, a tear gas gun projector or bomb or any object containing noxious liquid gas or substance, other than an object containing a non-lethal noxious liquid gas or substance designed solely for personal defense carried by a person 18 years of age or older; or

The emphasis, of course, is mine. Now, the Kershaw/Onion knives (they were designed by Ken Onion, a custom knife maker in Hawaii, and are made under license by Kershaw) do NOT have any spring, button or other device in the handle of the knife which can be pressed to open the knife "automatically." You open the Kershaw just like almost every other one-hand-opening knife out there, by pushing your thumb against the thumb stud on the blade to push the blade open. The difference is that the Kershaw has a torsion bar built in which, when you've got the blade about a third of the way open, takes over and snaps it open the rest of the way. You CANNOT open this knife without manually pushing the blade open, as you could with a "switchblade." You MUST push the blade, NOT a device in the handle. Thus it is absolutely impossible to mistake this knife for a switchblade as defined by Illinois law.


Now, the law against switchblades is stupid, ill-conceived, and pointless. But Kershaw and Ken Onion have done everything possible to comply with it while creating a better mousetrap, and they don't deserve to have lies spread about their businesses! That's not to mention the unnamed store that's probably being put through the wringer for "flooding the streets with deadly and horrible switchblade knives."


Don Gwinn

 

[P95Carry]

Sounds like the SPD has a penchant for the pedantic ...... always struck me a switch-blade knife was exactly that .. press a button and 'schtoom' .... instant blade.

The very act of, as you mention Don, purposely having to move the blade thru a significant part of its opening travel .. before any spring assistance cuts in ....... is altogether another mechanism. If THAT is ''non PC'' to people ''up there'' then they would IMO have to legislate specifically for that .... and not try and cloak some half-a**ed attempted ordinance with ''switchblade'' as an interpretation.

There are enough laws already without existing ones being ''massaged'' to try and include other things under the same umbrella. I'll still be waiting for some eventual clamp down on screwdrivers, chisels, hand axes ... you know ... all those deadly weapons. The list is long.

 

[Kingcreek]

You can carry a fixed blade knife that is always "open" but you don't want to get caught with one that requires time and physical action to open. Obviously, that would be to dangerous to the citizens of Illinois.
Next the dummies will figger out that an axis lock is even faster and easier to deploy.
no end to this nonsense...

 

[Don Gwinn]

Lord, save me from bureaucrats.

I just called the Springfield Police Department. Overnight, the radio station has not only not backed off coverage, but they are now running a quote from a Springfield Police Lieutenant telling people that it's easy to make the mistake of thinking it's a normal knife because it has a thumb stud. He's also telling people that possession of the knife is a felony, which would NOT be true even if it WERE a switchblade!

And, apparently, I'm the only person questioning this.

I just got off the phone with the SPD. Front desk had no idea who to connect, which didn't surprise me. They gave me to an Officer Hohimer in Crime Prevention. I should have known right then that I should be wasting a Public Affairs guy's time, not hers, but I'm new at this.

Me: I just wanted to get some information on this story I'm hearing on the radio that the SPD is warning people not to buy or carry Kershaw speedsafe knives. It was my understanding that these are not switchblades--is there some new information or something I've missed?

OH: OK, first of all, who are you with? (Very politely and professionally.)

Me: I'm not with anybody, just a citizen. I collect knives and I was surprised to hear this.

OH: Well, ALL switchblades are illegal. If we find someone with a switchblade on them we can arrest them.

Me: Yes, but I guess what I'm asking is why the Kershaw knives are considered switchblades? I have the law in front of me and I don't see how they could be.

OH: Well, I'd have to see the knife or have it in front of me. . . . .

Me: OK. Well, the way the Kershaw knives work is. . . . (This was a mistake. She's right; I can't expect her to comment on that part of it without knowing how the knife works, and it's not like she can take my word for it. I could be anybody. Nonetheless, I proceed to explain as simply and quickly as possible how the Speed Safe system works and that you must push the blade open and actually even overcome the initial resistance the torsion bar provides. She is not impressed.)

OH: Look. . . . what are you using these knives for? Why would you want to have one of these things in the first place?

Me: Well, I don't have one, but I . . . ..

OH: I thought you said you had knives? (Now she's getting irritated. You can hear it--"This idiot doesn't even HAVE one of these knives and he's bothering me with this stuff?")

Me: Well, I do collect knives, but I don't have any of the Kershaw Speed Safes yet. (I almost add my usual explanation "They're great, and the mechanism is fascinating, and I really like the blade design, but I can't get used to the operation. It's awkward and slow for me." Surely this would not help her understand why I'm interrupting her morning for this, though, so I keep it to myself)

OH: Well they're illegal. They're switchblades, and it all depends. . . . it's all in what you're using it for. What are you doing with them?

Now she's actually mad. I try a few times to tell her what I use knives for, but she's talking over me every time about pulling over people for speeding and finding switchblades on them. Finally she gives up and gives me the number for the Public Affairs Officer. I apologize for bothering her and assure her that I didn't call to make trouble for anyone, only to get the information I need, and was simply transferred to her line by the front desk.

This is not entirely true, of course. I intend to make trouble for someone. I simply did not set out to make trouble for her personally.


In other words, so far, the SPD's response is the standard weapons policy boilerplate:
"Why would you want a knife like this unless you're a criminal? It's illegal because we say it's illegal." However, that response was from someone whose job really doesn't encompass public pronouncements of policy, so they're not buried yet. I will now call the Public Affairs officer and see what he has to say.

 

[P95Carry]

Don - persevere if you can ...... there has to be someone there who can do more than jump down your throat!! Yet again the ''why do you need'' syndrome .... as if that covers everything!

So far, with ..... :banghead: :banghead: going on .. I hope you don't suffer too much of a headache!

 

[zahc]

They're switchblades, and it all depends. . . . it's all in what you're using it for. What are you doing with them?

Wait a minute--WHAT? Wha.... That question is almost offensive.


Also, a guy I used to work with had one of those. I don't see how it can be a switchblade under any definition of switchlade I've ever seen.

I also thinks that switchblades' being illegal is really really stupid anyway.

 

[Don Gwinn]

In that, you are correct. Anyway, now I need to get a Boa. I don't own one, as I said, because one aspect of the design always left me cold. If you're used to operating a normal thumbhole or stud, you're in the habit of sweeping your thumb all the way up. At least, I am. More positive that way.

With the Speed Safe, I kept finding that when the torsion bar engaged it more or less took the blade away from my thumb--but my thumb kept going. Thus it would travel up in its arc and have a good chance of meeting the blade in a perfect slicing motion. After several near misses, I put the Whirlwind (at the time, the only model available) down on the table and kept walking. Neat mechanism, I thought, and mad props to the man for inventing something new and different, but it's not for me.

Now, with the flippers, that problem is solved. And it really appeals to the engineering geek in me, because the torsion bar really improves the flippers beyond what's available elsewhere, too. The problem I always had with the Carson flippers, for instance, is that you have to really snap the knife to get the blade all the way out with them. It's still not really something I NEED. . . . but it's cooler now, and that makes all the difference. Ironically, I almost bought one for dad for Christmas because he loves switchblades and I thought he could carry something similar at work without getting into trouble. I guess that could have backfired.

Dad's so mild-mannered it's funny to hear about him shocking people. For instance, dad's guns are stored in a secure, climate controlled room that used to be a gun shop behind his house. It has a barred window, steel doors, steel security gates, a wood-and-steel door bar on the back door, motion detector alarm you can hear blocks away. . . . it's pretty cool. But he still worries about Illinois' lock law. I don't think it applies to his guns for some technical reasons, but he figures better safe than sorry. The law calls for a lock on each individual gun, but that's a lot of locks.

Well, recently the Virden Police Department (Motto: "We go through more Chiefs of Police by 9:00 a.m. than your department did in the '90s!") got a bunch of gun locks to give away for free from some federal grant. Yeah, I know, I know. But dad figured he'd get the free locks and put them on the guns, and then if the worst happens, he's a little more covered.

Coincidentally, it was our new(est) Chief's third day on the job. Dad works for the city in another department, so he knows the cops and dispatchers well. He called and told the dispatcher what he wanted and how many, she checked with the Lt. who had been acting Chief and he said it was fine. Dad drove over to the cop shop to pick up his locks, and that's when the new Chief noticed this little bearded guy in a city uniform leaving with six boxes of locks.
"How many locks do you have there?" he asked, unaware that he didn't want to know.
"A hunnert an' twenty." Dad replied.
"Well, you can only take locks for the guns you have." The New Chief (NC) pointed out reasonably.
"I know."
"OK, well, how many guns do you have?"
"I don't know."
"What do you mean, you don't know?"
"I don't know how many guns I have."
"Well, how many do you THINK you have?"
"Hundred ten or twenty."
"You THINK you have 120 guns but you don't know? What the hell do you have that many guns for?"
"You wouldn't make a marble collector stop after ten marbles, wouldja?"


The Chief lost it a little and forbade everyone in the office to give dad more than 20 locks. So the Lt. was forced to deliver the other hundred bit by bit over the next three days. Not sure how long the Chief is going to last. Dad is the must unthreatening, fuzzyfaced, wrinkly smiled little hillbilly you'll ever meet. Don't know what he's going to do to the meth dealers (or the first time dad puts the fake bloodly leg hanging out of his patrol vehicle's trunk.

 

[P95Carry]

Let's hear it for Don's Dad ....... Wonderful!

 

[Jeff White]

Don,
I think that your best option would be to get one of the Kershaw knives and take it up to the Sangamon County States Attorney's office. Make an appointment and show it to whatever assistant you can talk to and ask him/her if they think it meets the legal definition of a switchblade. Then say that Springfield PD is publically saying these or switchblades. Most likely the SAs office will issue a memo to the agencies in the county stating that these aren't switchblades and they can count on any cases they try to make on them being dismissed.

I don't think you'll have any luck over the phone because most people you talk with won't have any idea what you're talking about. They will need to see it.

Jeff

 

[Kingcreek]

I could loan ya a well-used Kershaw mini-task with the speed safe mech.
If you're gonna go flashing it around the PD or SA's office, it is less intimidating looking than some of the models mentioned.
Not that any of those idjuts would know what they were lookin at anyway.

 

[Don Gwinn]

Thanks, Creek, but I couldn't ask you to do that. What if they confiscate it?

What Jeff says has the ring of truth, but I'm afraid this is a time for sacrifices and digging deep. I may be forced to purchase a Boa. I guess if that's what it takes, that's what it takes.

It does, surely, have to be a knfe with the same "flipper" feature as the Scallions and Chives they're worried about. I get the impression from the press release that the same knife with just the thumb stud would not have aroused the ire of our lawmen.

Thanks, Jeff.

 

[sm]

This is the same feature as the Kershaw 1660 LeeK - correct?

Granted not being familar with all the "thinking" you folks have to deal with , I have question /suggestion.

Recall Case made the series of knives that enabled one-hand use. Case took in consideration the returning soldiers from the War, and the difficulty of opening a knife. Was there not some court case /ruling that was tested?

I dunno, I seem to recall something about this, hopefully not an Urban Legend. Granted criminals and politicians ain't wired right , could this be a resource to use?

I'm thinking along the lines of EMT / LEO or civilian having to assist a MVA victim , needing to cut seat belt ( one-handed knife use) while keeping pressure on wound / watching the neck ( prevent further injury)...and the like.

I understand the powers that be don't like the serfs, and they don't understand the idea of the intent of user instead of tool argument.

Nuclear...we have bombs, we also have medicine...that intent makes the difference.

 

[Don Gwinn]

The problem with that approach is that there are lots of one-handed openers (now) that are not switchblades. The law doesn't define a switchblade as a one-handed knife, so showing one-handed knives won't help. The law defines a switchblade according to whether you must manually push the blade to open it (this is Federal and Illinois law--yours may be different.) If you can open it by pushing a switch, spring, or anything else that's part of the handle, it is a switchblade according to the law. If not, it isn't--even if it's one-handed, even if it's as fast or faster than most switchblades, it still isn't one.

Think about the Wave Emersons and similar designs--those are, practically speaking, quite a bit faster than most switchblades if you count the entire draw from pocket to readiness. They're legal, though.

If I can plant the seed with at least someone in authority that the switchblade ban isn't doing anything useful, that would be fine, too.

 

[TrapperReady]

Good luck. They'll probably just "realize" how dangerous all those other knives are. Those evil knife manufacturers must be using some sort of loophole to subvert the intent of the law. :banghead:

 

[Guyon]

Similar thread here at Bladeforums:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=289994

 

[Don Gwinn]

Interesting. Note that dealing with the prosecuting attorneys didn't help that poor guy any--he ended up pleading guilty. Maybe I'll call the attorney's office BEFORE I buy the Kershaw.

Are they allowed to set up an appointment to discuss the knife and then arrest me when I show up? I know it sounds paranoid--who would go to that trouble for a piddling misdemeanor charge--but apparently it happened in Tazewell. And apparently, the Springfield police think it's a felony charge. . . . .

At least now I bet I know why the Springfield PD got bugs up their butts about Kershaw Chives.

 

[Jeff White]

I just read the bladeforums thread. Apparently it's going to take a judge to decide if it is or isn't a switchblade. If the States Attorney in one county says it's not, there is nothing preventing the SA in the next county from saying it is.

I've always been slightly amused at why the political class is so afraid of one handed knives. Some state legislator probably had nightmares after watching West Side Story on the Late Show.

Jeff

 

[El Tejon]

Jeff, "Blackboard Jungle" was the movie that inspired the "switchblade" laws.

 

[Don Gwinn]

Hey, I don't know how I missed it, but my post above is almost a slander of the Tazewell attorney. He did in fact drop the charges after speaking to Sisk. Sisk voluntarily gave up the knife after Umholz apparently offered to have it returned. That was decent of him, although I wish he'd say definitively that he couldn't have won the case and that's why he isn't bringing it.

 

[Jeff White]

The bad thing about it going to the State Crime Lab is that a hopolphobe legislator may get ahold of it and the next thing you know there will be legislation proposed to outlaw folding knives that can be opened with one hand.

I remember all the hysteria over the so called Spetznaz Ballistic Knives another movie prop that scared the hopolphobes in Chicago.

Jeff

 

[Tamara]

Don Gwinn,

"How many locks do you have there?" he asked, unaware that he didn't want to know.
"A hunnert an' twenty." Dad replied.
"Well, you can only take locks for the guns you have." The New Chief (NC) pointed out reasonably.
"I know."
"OK, well, how many guns do you have?"
"I don't know."
"What do you mean, you don't know?"
"I don't know how many guns I have."
"Well, how many do you THINK you have?"
"Hundred ten or twenty."
"You THINK you have 120 guns but you don't know? What the hell do you have that many guns for?"
"You wouldn't make a marble collector stop after ten marbles, wouldja?"

Does your dad have a fan club? If not, could I start one?

 

[Linux&Gun Guy]

I own a Blackout and I guess it is no longer a "switch-blade" because the SpeedSafe thing no longer works I can send it in for a new one because I have a warrent so its not that bad.

The good news is I can use this knife as a 'tool' to show my mom how stupid hoplophobes are.

Anyone know if this happens a lot with Blackouts(I didn't drop it or anything)?

 

[hso]

Kershaw is talking with the DA today.

 

[Penforhire]

Keep us posted. I know at least one *ahem* Whirlwind owner here that has an interest. I love mine and would be sorely disappointed if the hysteria spread to California (huh! where it usually starts?).

 

[Bill Hook]

If I can plant the seed with at least someone in authority that the switchblade ban isn't doing anything useful, that would be fine, too.

You mean like the AWB?

Dream on, sorry to say.