"Illegal guns"

[Marcus5aurelius]

Captured weapon's serial numbers were traced back to Dallas and New York, both of which were claimed "destroyed" by police.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

The last I heard, they wouldn't give us the serial numbers.

 

[Just Jim]

The staff that Obama picked (emanual, holder etc) is pretty much the same people involved in the last gun grab. They are useing "a good crisis" to steal our guns. People who believe this is a just avenue are about to drink the koolaide, and deserve it.

jj

 

[rainbowbob]

From a Reuter news article today:

"U.S. to blame for much of Mexico violence: Clinton"

Mexico has repeatedly said, however, that its efforts will come to nothing if the United States does not clamp down on the smuggling of U.S. guns used in 90 percent of drug crimes south of the border.

Clinton described the violence Mexico is grappling with as "horrendous" and said cartels were alarmingly well equipped.

"It's not only guns. It's night vision goggles. It's body armor. These criminals are outgunning the law enforcement officials," she said. "When you go into a gun fight, where you are trying to round up bad guys and they have ... military style equipment that is much better than yours, you start out at a disadvantage."

What evidence have they provided that "90 percent" of the guns used in drug crimes in Mexico originated in the US? Where are they getting this "military style equipment"?

Build a wall - or legalize drugs. Those seem to be the only viable options. I predict that any further attempts to use this problem to initiate another ban will backfire on them.

 

[cauberallies]

I know for a fact that nearly all of the long arms/subguns being used by those involved with the drug trade come from just about anywhere BUT the US. Like several others have mentioned, they come from South/Central American countries, who get them from Eastern European/Asian countries. And chances are that unless it was illegally converted, any full auto that you could buy in the US on the black market came through Mexico from said countries.

I have intimate knowledge of how the major criminal trades work, as a result of my childhood, and current job, and I am strongly considering pursuing a career in law enforcement for that reason. I made some questionable choices in the past, but they made me who I am today, and I learned a lot of things that may be useful in the future.

But back to the topic at hand. If this is truly how the powers that be think the guns are getting into the hands of these people, we are in a sad state of affairs. Even if they know the real problem lies elsewhere, they are purposely misleading the general public for their own interests, which is even worse.

 

[highorder]

Tall tale cauberallies, citations?

I know for a fact that nearly all of the long arms/subguns being used by those involved with the drug trade come from just about anywhere BUT the US. Like several others have mentioned, they come from South/Central American countries, who get them from Eastern European/Asian countries. And chances are that unless it was illegally converted, any full auto that you could buy in the US on the black market came through Mexico from said countries.

I have intimate knowledge of how the major criminal trades work, as a result of my childhood, and current job, and I am strongly considering pursuing a career in law enforcement for that reason. I made some questionable choices in the past, but they made me who I am today, and I learned a lot of things that may be useful in the future.

Are you a 19 year old former criminal who wants to be a lawman, while currently doing intelligence gathering in Mexico, or are you full of it, or did I misread something?

 

[61chalk]

Finally found some truth posts... the president of the NRA was on Glenn Beck, an Mexico isn't giving out serial numbers because they aren't coming from the U.S.....they are coming from other nations...They do have U.S. .50 cal. which our government sold to their military years ago...who got them to the wrong people through curuption.

 

[ShadyScott999]

(A.) Are you a 19 year old former criminal who wants to be a lawman, while currently doing intelligence gathering in Mexico, or (B.) are you full of it, or (C.) did I misread something?

I vote B

 

[drtee]

Illegal?????

The illegal/Mexico gun issue is just another anti stab in their effort to stop regular people from having guns. The best ammunition pro gun folks have is the ballot box.

 

[jerkface11]

Ok I just thought of a way to fix this. We give every Mexican who's here illegally an M4 and ship them all home. Give that a month or two and the problem should sort itself out.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Okay. I'm just going to say the following. Mexico isn't the source of drugs to the US. They are simply the most efficient conduit. Other than meth (which is illegally manufactured there @ pharmaceutical factories) and pot, most stuff comes from further south, or from Asia. You begin a program of decriminalizing everything, setting up treatment for those who addict themselves, and treat pot like what it is (no worse than tobacco or alchohol), this 68 billion dollar illicit industry goes away.

Obama knows it, the Mexican government knows it. Just about everyone in America under 35 knows it.

What this is about is the banning of AWBs. AWBs aren't going to Mexico, they are going to people's shelves, gunsafes, and honestly, in the ground. Along with millions of rounds of ammo. People know what's up.

Obama and Co. want to stop this now. It's already out of hand. Pretty soon, an attack on EBRs will be like an attack on bolt-action hunting rifles. THey want to stop that before another AWB becomes literally untenable politically. This looks like a good excuse. And we live in an era of thousand page legislation that no one reads, and everyone votes on after a week of discussion. Such things have happened before, but never at the rate they have been lately.

If the Mexican government won't share the serial #s, we don't know what factor American straw buying plays in cartel supplies (though I don't give a flying f$%* what the hell those murderous bastards in the DF think. Instead of coming here, the Mexican people need to hang every last one of the bastards, but I digress).

My personal best guess: America is good for handguns, and the occasional precision rifle. A few EBRs make it across. But, the gangsters have done the same math I did:

Pay $750-$1000 for a BHO inflated semi-auto AK-knockoff that then has to be smuggled across a border where you can be caught by US Border Patrol who you almost certainly did not pay off.

Pay $300 (if that) per unit for a full auto Russian or Cuban AK-47 which is offloaded @ Puerto Vallarta, or Tampico where you've paid off customs officials who live high because of you, and customs agents who would live very lowly without you.

 

[cauberallies]

Man. Those are some harsh words. All I intended to do was share what I know about the subject, and why, without going too deep. I sat here and thought for a good 15 minutes about whether or not it would be a good idea before posting, and I guess I shouldn't have.

 

[Brian Dale]

cauberallies, your writing style in the first and second paragraphs of your post #55 is the problem that I see. A regular person without godlike omniscience cannot possibly "know for a fact" the things that you posted.

I believe that your impressions are correct. I agree with your conclusions. However, it isn't effective to refer to special or secret knowledge when making the simple, declarative statements that work best in a public discussion.

Be sure to distinguish clearly between what you have seen and what you reasonably conclude. You don't need to have complete, perfect, authoritative knowledge to make the rational argument that you've posted above.

This forum is a great place for improving the way we write. It can be hard, but I believe that the result is worth it.

 

[cauberallies]

Brian Dale, you are absolutely right. "I know for a fact" was a poor choice of words on my behalf. It sounds too absolute, and I didn't realize that at first. What I meant by that, was that I have witnessed, and been made privy to first hand knowledge that supports my claim on several occasions, and that those whom I have casually talked to, who I consider to be knowledgeable on the subject said the same thing.

And to clear up the vague references as to why I know this, I used to run with "the wrong crowd", to say the least. People I grew up with who were not always bad, ended up getting tied up pretty heavily in the world of drugs/crime. Although I did not actively participate in anything, I still hung out with these people simply because they were lifelong friends of mine, and at the time, I saw nothing wrong with associating with them. Looking back on it, if they were to have been busted, I would have gone down too just for being there. But I learned a lot during that time, and it changed me for the better. It made me realize I was not being smart, I was making very unwise decisions, and most of all, it gave me the drive and desire to make sure I do not turn out like that at all costs. I run a recording studio now, and a good portion of my clients(rappers mainly) know me through those former friends. They see me as someone who understands what they do, and they don't feel like they have to hide what they are from me. Plus, they bring friends from all over the place, and they are the main reason how I learn what is going on in that faction these days.

I just don't want people to think I am some sort of lowlife criminal, and that is what I made it seem like in that first post. I am a 20 year old small business owner, and a responsible gun owner with no criminal record to speak of. I plan on keeping it that way.

 

[rainbowbob]

From a Reuters report:

Mexican drug gangs like the Gulf cartel and the Sinaloa alliance are armed with AR-15 assault rifles and AK-47s bought legally in the United States and smuggled into Mexico.

"Ninety-five percent of the weapons (in Mexico) come from the United States," said Aldo Fasci, police chief of northern Mexico's Nuevo Leon state...

What evidence exist to support this unlikely claim?

Mexican military officials and federal police say corruption is a major problem at Mexico's border posts, with officials taking bribes to wave weapons and drug cash through.

Sounds like the problem is the guvmnt south of the border. And the guy who says "Nitey-five percent of the weapons come from the US" is one of those northern Mexico "officials"...

 

[Brian Dale]

"Ninety-five percent of the weapons (in Mexico) come from the United States," said Aldo Fasci, police chief of northern Mexico's Nuevo Leon state...

Prove it, Sr. Fasci. Let's see some serial numbers.

I don't believe that you or your government will publish any hard, comprehensive data at all.

I think that your intention is to distract United States citizens with the spectre of more onerous laws being perpetrated against us here, so that you can more easily send your violent felons to invade my country.


Edited, to append the following:

Sr. Fasci, perhaps someone in your government will soon produce a list of, oh...(pulling a number out of the air) 32 civilian AR-style rifles and a couple of hundred handguns of United States origin. It fits the pattern of effective theatre. Most will be discovered later to have been stolen rather than purchased by smugglers; this will not be widely reported. Regardless of that, I expect that such a list will be waved around wildly as supposed "proof" of United States culpability in your massive problem with vicious, home-grown drug cartels.

We want to know where they're getting the machine guns.

We want to know where they're getting the rocket launchers.

We want to know when you and your government are going to stop trampling the fundamental human right of ordinary, decent Mexican citizens to defend themselves by arms against these reprehensible criminals.
.

 

[rainbowbob]

I expect that such a list will be waved around wildly as supposed "proof" of United States culpability in your massive problem with vicious, home-grown drug cartels.

We want to know when you and your government are going to stop trampling the fundamental human right of ordinary, decent Mexican citizens to defend themselves by arms against these reprehensible criminals.

Well put, Brian. I'm sure you're right about that "proof" that will likely be produced shortly. A good con always has just enough of an element of truth in it to sway the gullible.

What is happening down there is a pretty good example of what disarmed citizens can expect when government either will not - or can not - protect them.

 

[Grey_Mana]

In case you missed it, the Mexican gun myth is apparently PR, related to the use of Mexican drug runners by Hezbollah to ship weapons into the US.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/27/hezbollah-uses-mexican-drug-routes-into-us/

"EXCLUSIVE: Hezbollah uses Mexican drug routes into U.S.
Works beside smuggler cartels to fund operations
Sara A. Carter (Contact)
Friday, March 27, 2009



EXCLUSIVE:

Hezbollah is using the same southern narcotics routes that Mexican drug kingpins do to smuggle drugs and people into the United States, reaping money to finance its operations and threatening U.S. national security, current and former U.S. law enforcement, defense and counterterrorism officials say.

The Iran-backed Lebanese group has long been involved in narcotics and human trafficking in South America's tri-border region of Paraguay, Argentina and Brazil. Increasingly, however, it is relying on Mexican narcotics syndicates that control access to transit routes into the U.S.

Hezbollah relies on "the same criminal weapons smugglers, document traffickers and transportation experts as the drug cartels," said Michael Braun, who just retired as assistant administrator and chief of operations at the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA).

"They work together," said Mr. Braun. "They rely on the same shadow facilitators. One way or another, they are all connected.

"They'll leverage those relationships to their benefit, to smuggle contraband and humans into the U.S.; in fact, they already are [smuggling]."

His comments were confirmed by six U.S. officials, including law enforcement, defense and counterterrorism specialists. They spoke on the condition that they not be named because of the sensitivity of the topic.

While Hezbollah appears to view the U.S. primarily as a source of cash - and there have been no confirmed Hezbollah attacks within the U.S. - the group's growing ties with Mexican drug cartels are particularly worrisome at a time when a war against and among Mexican narco-traffickers has killed 7,000 people in the past year and is destabilizing Mexico along the U.S. border.

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton was in Mexico on Thursday to discuss U.S. aid. Other U.S. Cabinet officials and President Obama are slated to visit in the coming weeks.

Hezbollah is based in Lebanon. Since its inception after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982, it has grown into a major political, military and social welfare organization serving Lebanon's large Shi'ite Muslim community.

In 2006, it fought a 34-day war against Israel, which remains its primary adversary. To finance its operations, it relies in part on funding from a large Lebanese Shi'ite Muslim diaspora that stretches from the Middle East to Africa and Latin America. Some of the funding comes from criminal enterprises.

Although there have been no confirmed cases of Hezbollah moving terrorists across the Mexico border to carry out attacks in the United States, Hezbollah members and supporters have entered the country this way.

Last year, Salim Boughader Mucharrafille was sentenced to 60 years in prison by Mexican authorities on charges of organized crime and immigrant smuggling. Mucharrafille, a Mexican of Lebanese descent, owned a cafe in the city of Tijuana, across the border from San Diego. He was arrested in 2002 for smuggling 200 people, said to include Hezbollah supporters, into the U.S.

In 2001, Mahmoud Youssef Kourani crossed the border from Mexico in a car and traveled to Dearborn, Mich. Kourani was later charged with and convicted of providing "material support and resources ... to Hezbollah," according to a 2003 indictment.

A U.S. official with knowledge of U.S. law enforcement operations in Latin America said, "we noted the same trends as Mr. Braun" and that Hezbollah has used Mexican transit routes to smuggle contraband and people into the U.S.

Two U.S. law enforcement officers, familiar with counterterrorism operations in the U.S. and Latin America, said that "it was no surprise" that Hezbollah members have entered the U.S. border through drug cartel transit routes.

"The Mexican cartels have no loyalty to anyone," one of the officials told The Washington Times. "They will willingly or unknowingly aid other nefarious groups into the U.S. through the routes they control. It has already happened. That's why the border is such a serious national security issue."

One U.S. counterterrorism official said that while "there's reason to believe that [Hezbollah members] have looked at the southern border to enter the U.S. ... to date their success has been extremely limited."

However, another U.S. counterterrorism official confirmed that the U.S. is watching closely the links between Hezbollah and drug cartels and said it is "not a good picture."

A senior U.S. defense official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of ongoing operations in Latin America, warned that al Qaeda also could use trafficking routes to infiltrate operatives into the U.S.

"If I have the money to do it - I want to get somebody across the border - that's a way to do it," the defense official said. "Especially foot soldiers. Somebody who's willing to come and blow themselves up. That's sort of hard to do that kind of recruiting, training and development in Kansas City."

Adm. James G. Stavridis, commander of U.S. Southern Command and the nominee to head NATO troops as Supreme Allied Commander-Europe, testified before the House Armed Services Committee last week that the nexus between illicit drug trafficking - "including routes, profits, and corruptive influence" and "Islamic radical terrorism" is a growing threat to the U.S.

He noted that in August, "U.S. Southern Command supported a Drug Enforcement Administration operation, in coordination with host countries, which targeted a Hezbollah-connected drug trafficking organization in the Tri-Border Area."

In October, another interagency operation led to the arrests of several dozen people in Colombia associated with a Hezbollah-connected drug trafficking and a money-laundering ring. Hezbollah uses these operations to generate millions of dollars to finance Hezbollah operations in Lebanon and other areas of the world, he said.

"Identifying, monitoring and dismantling the financial, logistical, and communication linkages between illicit trafficking groups and terrorist sponsors are critical to not only ensuring early indications and warnings of potential terrorist attacks directed at the United States and our partners, but also in generating a global appreciation and acceptance of this tremendous threat to security," he said.

Mr. Braun, who spent 33 years with the DEA and still works with the organization as a consultant, said that members of the elite Quds, or Jerusalem, force of Iran's Revolutionary Guards also are showing up in Latin America.

"Quite frankly, I'm not opposed to the belief that they could be commanding and controlling Hezbollah's criminal enterprises from there," Mr. Braun said.

The DEA thinks that 60 percent of terrorist organizations have some ties with the illegal narcotics trade, said agency spokesman Garrison Courtney.

South American drug cartels were forced into developing stronger alliances with Mexican syndicates when the U.S. closed off access from the Caribbean 15 years ago, Mr. Braun said.

Mexico's transit routes now account for more than 90 percent of the cocaine entering the U.S., he said. The emphasis on Mexico intensified after the Sept. 11 attacks, when beefed-up U.S. security measures greatly reduced access to the U.S. by air and water, he said.

The shift put Mexico's drug cartels in the lead and helped them amass billions of dollars and an estimated 100,000 foot soldiers, according to U.S. defense officials.

Hezbollah shifted its trade routes along with the drug cartels, using Lebanese Shi'ite expatriates to negotiate contracts with Mexican crime bosses, Mr. Braun said.

The World Trade Bridge between Nuevo Laredo and its sister city, Laredo, as well as Interstate 35 and Highways 59, 359 and 83, are like veins feeding the Mexican syndicates, running from southern Texas to cities across the U.S. and as far north as Canada, U.S. officials say. In addition, access routes from El Paso, Texas, to San Diego are also high-value entry points.

Ben Conery contributed to this report."

 

[DHJenkins]

I lived in the RGV about 10 minutes from the border, near a lovely little dump called Reynosa.

IMO, The problem rests entirely with Mexico. In the border towns, becoming a police officer entails buying the equipment and applying for the job.

In all the years I've gone to the various border towns and into the interior of Mexico, there's only one group of people I've ever had a negative experience with, and that's the police. 8 years ago it was bad enough that you never gave your ID to a mexican police 'officer' - I can't imagine what it's like now.

As far as where they're really getting most of their guns - they do have their own "South of the border"...

 

[hardwarehacker]

Step back and look at the situation in Mexico. By any historical precedent, that country is ripe for a revolution. A tiny handful of rich and privileged own and control everything, most of the population is poor and ignorant beyond anything we can imagine, and the government exists to keep things as they are. Corruption is a way of life, and law enforcement is a joke. Read up on revolutions back through history and you will see that these are the conditions under which they happen. Add one charismatic leader and watch out.

The Mexican government has to blame someone, so they blame us. We buy the drugs. The guns used by their gangsters come from here. It must be our fault. Some guns, and LOTS of drug money really DO flow south from here, so put that on page one and point the fingers northward.

What really IS true is that there is a war going on across the border. Drug gangs are killing each other and police in scarry numbers. Their police work for the drug cartels, as do many government officials. Those who get in the way get killed. In Juarez right now, stores are boarded up and much of the population is just trying to stay out of the line of fire.

The US needs to take control of the border because Mexico is unable and unwilling to do so. We either need to prevent a bloody revolution just across the border or be prepared when it happens. Mexican customs is a joke, so we have to beef up our own. They do little or nothing to stop illegal border crossings, so we have to do it. If the situation blows up, they won't be able to do anything, so we need to be ready to do it. Saying 'we are clamping down on the flow of guns and money' sounds better than calling their government corrupt and incompetent, even if that is the real problem.

 

[Waddison]

This forum is a great place for improving the way we write. It can be hard, but I believe that the result is worth it.

A most excellent observation and good advice, too!

Many thanks.

Saying 'we are clamping down on the flow of guns and money' sounds better than calling their government corrupt and incompetent, even if that is the real problem.

IMHO, the difference between the Mexican gov't and the US gov't is that the Mexicans know and openly admit their gov't is corrupt.
In the US we pretend ours isn't.

Waddison

 

[grimjaw]

What are these "illegal guns" he and his cabinet members keep referring to

The same ones they've been using to rewrite the rhetoric now for years. Newspeak, 11th Edition.

 

[CentralTexas]

I know many of the mods here support Obama

but I'm going to say it anyway. He is a typical politician, no even worse a typical CHICAGO politician. On top of that he is a angry and calculating human being that has several major chips on his shoulders, he dislikes typical American values and will say anything to get what he wants. You are supprised he lies and embelishes and haven't figure this out until now?

 

[netav8tor]

Once again the political powers that be direct the discussion to their propagandistic goals and objectives to demonize America and focus the issues on something other than the real problem, drugs at the border. Why is it that our media and our US representatives are not running around with their hair on fire screaming at the top of their lung about Mexico allowing the drugs to get as far as the US border? Not even the slightest mention of it and not even the most hushed whisper of blame seem to be going to Mexico. Well maybe 1% but it’s not enough. Please correct me if I am wrong but does anyone remember immediately after 9/11 the stories of drugs backing up on the boarder of Mexico due to the higher security measures? Where have those higher security measures gone?

 

[Brian Dale]

CentralTexas, I hope that you'll forgive me for responding, even though I'm not a Mod, have never been a Mod and possess neither the ability, the desire nor the temperament to be a Mod. In my experience, the Mods support the Members of The High Road. My understanding is that we avoid purely political commentary here because it's a gun forum.

I know of no faster way to derail a thread here than to nudge it into a piling-on festival concerned with the personalities and character traits of politicians. It's just too easy to get wrapped up in it. The original topic of a thread in which we let ourselves take that direction is then almost always lost and, with respect to the purpose of the thread, the signal to noise ratio plummets toward zero.

That was a painful lesson, learned in previous years by looking at what happened in real threads, and lots of 'em.

I hear politics everywhere else I go; I imagine that many of you do, too. With great respect and apologies to Orthonym, I'll post my altered version of his famous TFL post from 2002 to incorporate the past few years' experience:

"The vast majority of the Web seems to be ruled by politics and sexually-oriented stuff; can't we have a little corner here to talk about innocent things like deadly weapons?"

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.