Illinois???

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isp2605 said:
Would you risk being charged with a Class 2 Felony, you job, and loss of everything you worked for just to take a look in someone's car? What makes you think a LEO would want to risk it all? That's exactly what one would be looking at to "push the envelope". Would you risk all you have to look for a few grams of pot? Would you be willing to go to prison for several years to lie about what you've seen? That's what you seem to think a LEO would be willing to do.
Some people watch too much TV.
Other people hang around too many police officers.

The answer to the question you posed, in this neck of the woods, is almost universally, "Yes ... in a heartbeat." And my area isn't even considered to be especially corrupt. It's much worse in the larger cities in this state, and it is well-known that the way you know one of our state troopers is lying is that his (her) lips are moving. (Before you accuse me of taking unwarranted cheap shots, let me state for the record that I know some present and former Staties personally, and they acknowledge that the department is geared up to be disfuctional.)
 
i don't think all cops are bad, but the system we have created is bad, and they are the enforcers for the system. so people mostly think the cops are bad.

the problem is that the average citizen thinks he has constitutionally protected rights. in reality, there is no meaningful way to enforce your rights as a citizen. you can complain after the fact, but it almost never does any good.

the courts and legislature continuously chip away at your rights, and you ought to be mad at them.

when's the last time any legislature wrote a law with teeth in it to protect citizens from having their rights violated? mostly it just does not exist, unless you fall into a few special categories, and even then it is tough to get enforcement.
 
Would you risk being charged with a Class 2 Felony, you job, and loss of everything you worked for just to take a look in someone's car? What makes you think a LEO would want to risk it all? That's exactly what one would be looking at to "push the envelope". Would you risk all you have to look for a few grams of pot? Would you be willing to go to prison for several years to lie about what you've seen? That's what you seem to think a LEO would be willing to do.

You are claiming there is a risk. I don't see the risk. Cop says A, citizen says B. System invariably accepts A.
 
Not trying to be a pain...

Last time I checked, home invaders were not protected under either state or federal game laws.

True. Yet one can be charged with having a loaded firearm that isn't immediately accessible (complying with FOID Act, violating the Wildlife Code); one can also be charged with not having a proper "firearm case" (complying with FOID, violating Wildlife) even with a weapon not suitable for hunting, in a non-hunting environment. Therefore, a 3-shell limit for HD shotguns.

Is it enforced outside hunting fields? Probably as often as US-made part counts. Is it enforced within hunting fields? That I do not know...

Can one travel about Illinois, having loaded & operable weapons in the trunk, in unlocked factory cases? It will depend on the officer's reading comprehension and mood, and whether one is cooperative or "playing the fool." FOID Act says it's OK, Wildlife Code says it's still illegal. DAs have proven to be inconsistent, yet they are (or should be :)) well beyond an 8th grade reading level. Neither FOID nor Wildlife has urban/suburban/rural exclusions or inclusions, so the law should be the same north or south of I-80...
 
isp 2605-

My post was not at attempt to bash cops. They endure an incredible amount of crap everyday just trying to do their jobs.

However, reread my previous post replying to Warner. Many many times the LEO already has enough legal reason to do the search before they ever ask. You, as the driver, don't know what the LEO has or what the LEO already knows.

I personally, as a driver, can be pretty sure the officer doesn't have probable cause to search my vehicle as I don't engage in any illegal activities. I was thinking more of the situation of a checkpoint, where the initial contact is purely random.

Would you risk being charged with a Class 2 Felony, you job, and loss of everything you worked for just to take a look in someone's car? What makes you think a LEO would want to risk it all? That's exactly what one would be looking at to "push the envelope". Would you risk all you have to look for a few grams of pot? Would you be willing to go to prison for several years to lie about what you've seen? That's what you seem to think a LEO would be willing to do.
Some people watch too much TV.

By the term "pushing the envelope" I am not implying that the officer would lie or manufacture evidence. I am just wondering that if a refusal to consent would raise the officer's suspicion (which I think would be a normal human reaction) and perhaps prejudice his observations and/or lead him to scrutinize you more thoroughly and perhaps perceive something incorrectly. Hell, I would think that it would be a GOOD thing for a cop to be suspicious on the job and NOT assume things are always what they appear to be.

Again, addressing the small percentage of requests to search without PC, are you saying that a refusal would not raise any warning bells in the officer's mind?
 
Quote:
The thing is that if they want a consentual search, they also have to advise that the person does not have to consent and can revoke that consent.

I don't know where you got that idea from. Asking for consent to search is not the same as giving a Miranda warning. There is no requirement to advise the person that they are free to decline.


Quote:
Illinois law is that once a stop is over, the officer cannot ask for consent to search as that makes the stop an unreasonable stop at that point.

Wrong again. You cannot ask for consent to search until the stop is over. The Illinois Supreme Court, the US 7th Circuit and the USSC have all ruled that if you ask for consent before you conclude the enforcement action that was the reason for the stop, the consent could be invalid as the subject wasn't free to go at that point. You always ask after you conclude the stop. If you are holding the subject's DL or haven't made it clear the subject is free to leave, then the subject could file a motion to suppress based on the fact he felt he had to comply with the request to search.

There is quite a bit of case law on this.

Jeff

I guess all my supressions can be chalked up to judges who don't know the law then. I guess I don't, either. Ah well, I will continue to remain ignorant.
Also, I will leave this thread to the fellows who know it all. Apparently, the judges and myself, don't. :rolleyes:

The Doc is out now. :cool:
 
I guess all my supressions can be chalked up to judges who don't know the law then.

You got a case cite for even one suppression you were granted because the the officer asked for consent to search after completion of the enforcement action. That has to be the basis for the motion to suppress being granted for it to count.

There are quite a few cases I'm aware of where a motion to suppress was granted because the officer asked for consent too soon and the subject felt he wasn't free to leave.

Jeff
 
I guess all my supressions can be chalked up to judges who don't know the law then. I guess I don't, either. Ah well, I will continue to remain ignorant.
Also, I will leave this thread to the fellows who know it all. Apparently, the judges and myself, don't.

The Doc is out now.

If you know what you are talking about please give some references.

From the above quote it sounds like you have nothing but attitude.

I may be entirely wrong and you are the head of the Ill Supreme Court and world/s foremost authority on constitutional law specalizing in Ill law, but with an attitude like that you sure do not sound like it.

If JeffWhite is wrong please provide some references.

Copping an attitude helps no one.

NukemJim

Nukem
 
The Illinois Supreme Court found nothing wrong with asking for consent to search at the end of a traffic stop in this 2005 case:
http://www.state.il.us/court/Opinions/SupremeCourt/2005/December/Summaries/Html/99616s.htm
Supreme Court Summaries

Opinions filed December 15, 2005

No. 99616 People v. Moss


Appellate citation: 353 Ill. App. 3d 663.

Opinion by GARMAN, J.


This defendant was accused of possessing cocaine. In the circuit court of Saline County, he was charged with one count of unlawful possession of a controlled substance. However, he was successful on his motion to suppress, when he challenged the seizure of cocaine found in his clothing in a pat-down search for weapons during a routine traffic stop. From this suppression, the State appealed, and, when it was not successful in the appellate court, appealed again to the Illinois Supreme Court.

Defendant was riding as a passenger in a truck which he owned when it was stopped for speeding on an afternoon in November of 2002 on Route 13 in Saline County. A third individual was also a passenger. The defendant was on parole at the time.

The identification of himself which the defendant furnished to the State Police officer brought out the fact that he was on mandatory supervised release when the information was relayed in to the dispatcher. This radio contact also generated information that the driver had two prior drug-related arrests and that all three men had prior arrests for and were known to possess firearms. A second State Police officer came to the scene as backup.

After the speeding ticket was written, the defendant, as the vehicle owner, was asked for and gave consent to search it. After the three men exited the truck, the first officer searched the vehicle while the backup officer performed a pat-down search of defendant. Moss was not asked his permission for this pat-down, but did not resist it. The officer felt hard objects in defendant's clothing which he thought at first might be weapons, but which turned out to be cocaine.

In this decision, the supreme court held that, although a refusal to consent to a request for a pat-down search would have violated a condition of defendant's parole, the parole condition did not establish prospective consent to all searches. Thus, in the absence of consent, the supreme court had to determine whether the pat-down was otherwise appropriate. Applying the totality-of-circumstances test, the supreme court held that it was, in light of the defendant's diminished expectation of privacy as a parolee subject to a search condition and in light of objective safety concerns arising from the vulnerable position of the two officers (who were outnumbered) and from concerns about the histories of the three men, even in the absence of any individualized suspicion of illegal activity. The supreme court went on to hold that the scope of the pat-down search was reasonable because the record contained no indication that the backup officer continued the search after he assured himself that the defendant was unarmed.

The cause was remanded for further proceeding on the charge against the defendant.

You might note that asking for consent to search at the completion of the stop was not even an issue in the appeal.

And in this 2004 decision the State Supreme Court ruled the trial judge properly suppressed evidence in a consensual search because the defendant was not free to go when she gave consent.
http://www.state.il.us/court/Opinions/SupremeCourt/2003/January/Summaries/Html/92554s.htm
No. 92554 People v. Gherna

Appellate citation: 325 Ill. App. 3d 157.

Opinion by McMORROW, C.J.

GARMAN and RARICK, JJ., took no part


In 1999, a woman was arrested in the parking lot of a Danville apartment complex after she emptied her pockets in front of police, revealing a baggie of cocaine. In the circuit court of Vermilion County, she was charged with possession of a controlled substance. However, the trial judge granted her motion to suppress the seized evidence. This brought a halt to the proceedings in the circuit court. The State appealed, complaining of impairment of its prosecution.

Defendant, Lynette Gherna, had been sitting in a truck with her 13-year-old daughter in an area in which police believed drug activities took place. Two officers were patrolling on bicycles when they noticed that there was beer in the vehicle and that the passenger appeared to be very young. Stopping to investigate, they found defendant to be an adult and the beer to be unopened, in its original container. In scrutinizing these events later, the circuit court held that there had initially been a valid investigatory Terry stop, but that it should have terminated at this point, and the supreme court agreed. However, police had then begun asking the defendant if there were drugs or weapons in the vehicle, were told they were "free to look," and then asked the woman to step outside the truck and talk to them beyond the presence of her daughter. During these subsequent conversations, inquiring about illegal drugs or narcotics, she emptied her pockets, revealing the cocaine.

In this decision, the supreme court affirmed the suppression order, finding that, once the initial authority to make an investigatory stop to investigate possible underage drinking had terminated, any further detention was unlawful. Any consent which the defendant purportedly gave was tainted by the illegality of the detention, so the search could not be viewed as consensual.

In this case the officers erred by expanding the stop into an investigation of possession of drugs and weapons without terminating the contact for the investigation of illegal possession of alcohol.

And when an officer establishes Reasonable Suspicion of criminal activity it is permissible to expand the scope of a traffic stop into another investigation. From the 7th US Court of Appeals:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/7th/043968p.pdf
BACKGROUND
On February 4, 2004, Indianapolis police sergeant Paul
McDonald executed a traffic stop that led to the arrest of Mr.
Muriel, the driver, and John Ramirez, his passenger. Mr.
Muriel later was charged with possession with intent to
distribute 500 grams or more of cocaine, in violation of 21
U.S.C. § 841(a)(1). Before trial, he filed a motion to suppress
the cocaine and statements he made to Sgt. McDonald
during the stop. He contended, in relevant part, that there
was no probable cause for the traffic stop and that
Sgt. McDonald had detained him longer than was reasonably
necessary to issue a traffic citation or to check for
outstanding warrants.
At the suppression hearing, Sgt. McDonald testified that
he was driving westbound on the interstate when he noticed
Mr. Muriel’s Jeep Cherokee tailgating another vehicle. The
sergeant was driving in the left lane, and Mr. Muriel in
the right; when Sgt. McDonald approached the Jeep,
Mr. Muriel slowed down to about thirty miles per hour.
Consequently, Sgt. McDonald had difficulty changing lanes
to get behind Mr. Muriel’s car and he had to brake abruptly.
Sgt. McDonald then initiated a traffic stop for following too
closely and for reckless driving. The stop commenced at 2:28
p.m. according to the squad car’s video camera, which
recorded the entire stop.
Sgt. McDonald testified that, as he approached
Mr. Muriel’s car, his suspicions were aroused by certain
features, such as the Illinois license plates, three police
support decals affixed to the windows, a teddy bear on the
dashboard and an American flag on the front of the vehicle.
In his experience, Sgt. McDonald testified, such items are
used to divert attention from illicit activity. Sgt. McDonald
No. 04-3968 3
asked Mr. Muriel to sit in the squad car while he ran checks
on Mr. Muriel’s driver’s license and registration. While
Mr. Muriel was seated in the squad car, Sgt. McDonald
asked him about his trip. Mr. Muriel stated that he was on
his way back to Chicago from Columbus, Ohio, where he
had been visiting friends for three days. Sgt. McDonald
returned Mr. Muriel’s license and registration. While
awaiting the results of the computer checks, Sgt. McDonald
asked Mr. Muriel to wait in the cruiser while he spoke with
Ramirez. Sgt. McDonald then asked for Ramirez’s identification
and inquired about their trip. Ramirez replied that they
were returning from Columbus, where they had gone for
work related to their landscaping business; he stated that
they had left Chicago the day before and stayed in Columbus
for one night. Sgt. McDonald decided to check Ramirez
for outstanding warrants and returned to the squad car. On
his way back to the squad car, he called for backup because
he was suspicious of the inconsistent stories. Once in the
squad car, he again asked Mr. Muriel where the two had
been and pointed out the discrepancies between his and
Ramirez’s version of events. Sgt. McDonald asked if there
was any contraband in their vehicle, and Mr. Muriel said
that there was none. The sergeant then asked for permission
to search, and Mr. Muriel at 2:41 p.m. agreed. After finding
two packages of cocaine under the rear seat, Sgt. McDonald
arrested both men. The arrest occurred at 2:46 p.m.
The district court, after viewing the video evidence,
characterized whether Mr. Muriel had been tailgating as a
fairly close question. Nevertheless, the court credited
Sgt. McDonald’s testimony that the gap between
Mr. Muriel’s Jeep and the truck in front of him was closer
than two seconds. It therefore concluded that the officer had
probable cause to believe that the driver was following
another vehicle more closely than was reasonable and prudent.
The court also concluded that the officer had probable
cause to believe that Mr. Muriel had acted recklessly in
4 No. 04-3968
1 Mr. Muriel was sentenced after this court’s decision in
United States v. Booker, 375 F.3d 508 (7th Cir. 2004), but before the
Supreme Court resolved Mr. Booker’s appeal, United States v.
Booker, 125 S. Ct. 738 (2005). Before this court, Mr. Muriel only
appeals the denial of his suppression motion. He does not challenge
his sentence on Booker grounds and does not dispute the
reasonableness of his sentence.
A court of appeals may notice plain error even though the error
was not brought to the court’s attention. Fed. R. Crim. P. 52(b); see
Silber v. United States, 370 U.S. 717, 718 (1962) (per curiam); 3B
(continued...)
violation of Indiana law by slowing to thirty miles per hour
on the interstate. Given the existence of probable cause, the
court concluded that the officer had the authority to stop the
vehicle. Relying on United States v. Childs, 277 F.3d 947 (7th
Cir. 2002) (en banc), the district court then held that the
duration of the stop was reasonable. The court gave little
weight to the suspicion allegedly raised by the Illinois
license plates, police decals, flag and teddy bear, but reasoned
that Mr. Muriel and Ramirez had aroused suspicion
by giving conflicting accounts of their itinerary. The court
concluded that, because the stop was reasonable up until
the point when Mr. Muriel gave consent, there was no
Fourth Amendment violation. It further concluded that
Mr. Muriel’s consent was voluntarily given. Therefore, the
court denied the motion to suppress, and the next day a jury
found Mr. Muriel guilty.

Mr. Muriel next contends that the scope and duration of
the stop were unreasonable. He submits that Sgt. McDonald
impermissibly asked questions unrelated to the purpose of
the stop for the purpose of prolonging it beyond the point
of reasonableness.
8 No. 04-3968
As we have explained earlier, the traffic stop was based
on probable cause; the initial seizure was therefore legal. As
the Supreme Court has reiterated recently, however, “a
seizure that is lawful at its inception can violate the Fourth
Amendment if its manner of execution unreasonably
infringes interests protected by the Constitution.” Illinois v.
Caballes, 125 S. Ct. 834, 837 (2005). Thus, the Court continued,
“[a] seizure that is justified solely by the interest in
issuing a warning ticket to the driver can become unlawful
if it is prolonged beyond the time reasonably required to
complete that mission.” Id. This court too has emphasized
that the detention following a traffic stop based on probable
cause must be reasonable. See United States v. Carpenter, 406
F.3d 915, 916 (7th Cir. 2005); Childs, 277 F.3d at 954 (“What
the Constitution requires is that the entire process remain
reasonable.”). Officers need not have reasonable suspicion
to ask questions unrelated to the purpose of the traffic stop,
but questions that prolong custody may affect the reasonableness
of the detention.
In this case, the traffic stop resulted in full custodial arrests
after eighteen minutes. The more appropriate focus,
however, is the time that elapsed between the initial stop
and Mr. Muriel’s consent to search; consent renders a search
reasonable under the Fourth Amendment unless given
involuntarily, which Mr. Muriel does not allege. See
Schneckloth v. Bustamonte, 412 U.S. 218, 219 (1973). According
to the record, Mr. Muriel was stopped at 2:28 p.m. and
gave consent to search at 2:41 p.m. During that period,
Sgt. McDonald had run license and warrant checks on
Mr. Muriel, while asking him some questions, and then had
left the squad car from approximately 2:34 p.m. to 2:38 p.m.
to speak to Ramirez and collect his identification.
Sgt. McDonald testified that he had entered Mr. Muriel’s
information into the computer and returned his documents
No. 04-3968 9
to him before leaving the squad car to speak to Ramirez
while the checks were being run. When he returned to the
squad car, the checks showed that Mr. Muriel had a valid
driver’s license and registration and no outstanding warrants.
While he ran Ramirez’s check (which also turned up
nothing), Sgt. McDonald asked Mr. Muriel more questions
before seeking consent to search.
Viewed in its entirety, Mr. Muriel’s detention was not
unreasonably prolonged by Sgt. McDonald’s asking a number
of routine questions while conducting the business of
the traffic stop. An officer conducting a valid traffic stop can
detain the occupants of the vehicle long enough to accomplish
the purpose of the stop. See Caballes, 125 S. Ct. at
837. And, as part of the stop, police may ask the vehicle’s
occupants “a moderate number of questions” and request
their identification. Berkemer v. McCarty, 468 U.S. 420, 439
(1984). Indeed, “uch questions may efficiently determine
whether a traffic violation has taken place, and if so,
whether a citation or warning should be issued or an arrest
made.” United States v. Brigham, 382 F.3d 500, 508 (5th Cir.
2004). Furthermore, the police may ask questions that do not
concern the purpose of the stop and that are not supported
by any other suspicion. Childs, 277 F.3d at 954 (citing Ohio v.
Robinette, 519 U.S. 33 (1996)).
Mr. Muriel also seems to suggest that Sgt. McDonald’s
involvement of Ramirez in the stop bears on its reasonableness.
However, passengers may be questioned without reasonable
suspicion. Childs, 277 F.3d at 952; see United States v.
Moore, 375 F.3d 580, 583 (7th Cir. 2004) (“ncident to his
status as a passenger of a vehicle involved in a traffic stop,
Moore could be questioned by the officers without their
questions being deemed a ‘seizure’ for Fourth Amendment
purposes . . . .”). Passengers may also be ordered out of the
vehicle “as a matter of course” during a traffic stop.
Maryland v. Wilson, 519 U.S. 408, 410 (1997).
10 No. 04-3968
By the time Sgt. McDonald had completed his work on the
traffic stop, he had, by virtue of the inconsistent stories
received from the occupants, reasonable suspicion to inquire
further. In any event, at that point, Mr. Muriel had given
him permission to search the vehicle. The district court
therefore correctly denied the motion to suppress.
Conclusion
Accordingly, the judgment of the district court is affirmed.


Jeff
 
How do search threads get so big? Do you guys really get asked that often? I've still never been asked. I was pulled over a couple weeks ago leaving work at like 2:30am, my address on my license was 1.5 hours from where I was stopped, I had a bunch of electronics and computer stuff scattered around the car from a job earlier that night, I probably looked ragged, my car is old, my windows are illegally tinted. Not enough to even get asked though. I had to lean across my equipment since she came to the passenger window, she made some seemingly dumb comments to me, and gave me the opportunity to talk a few times. She was professional and never asked for a search. 5 minutes later I was off without even a warning ticket for my license plate light being out.

I think there could have been a possibility for some kind of CCW movement making progress in IL but the zealots have poisoned the water.
So you think just because the guy that people were rallying behind as their champion also had a web page asking for people to supply grenades and tanks to tax evaders and then gets arrested in wisconsin for paying their bills with "liberty dollars" and carrying a concealed weapon, some people might think the whole ccw crew is a bunch of nuts? :D
 
You are claiming there is a risk. I don't see the risk. Cop says A, citizen says B. System invariably accepts A.
Really? And you know this how? Again, what it is is not cynicism but wrong based on listening to campfire stories and not fact. Just because the law doesn't go the way you think it should in a situation doesn't mean that something is wrong, it only means you don't understand either the law, the situation, or both.
 
You are claiming there is a risk. I don't see the risk. Cop says A, citizen says B. System invariably accepts A.
Really? And you know this how? Again, what it is is not cynicism but wrong based on listening to campfire stories and not fact. Just because the law doesn't go the way you think it should in a situation doesn't mean that something is wrong, it only means you don't understand either the law, the situation, or both.

I guess all my supressions can be chalked up to judges who don't know the law then. I guess I don't, either. Ah well, I will continue to remain ignorant.
DrLaw,
The info Jeff provided is exactly 100% correct.
Years ago the info you provided was correct. Years ago the request for consent had to be asked prior to concluding the actual stop. That procedure is long outdated due to the court rulings provided by Jeff.
 
Not trying to cop an attitude, but...

Cases, here you go. Please note the last case for the thread here, which was one of a gun found in a suitcase inside a pickup.

People v. Luna, 322 Ill App 3d 855, 752 N.E. 2d 477 (2d Dist. 2001) Cannot detain beyond the reason for the traffic stop.

People v. Smith, 315 Ill. App. 3d 772, 734 N.E.2d 1039 (4th Dist 2000) Cannot search for weapons in a case without articulable probable cause even with valid reason for stop.

People v. Powell, 343 Ill. App 3d. 699, 798 N.E.2d 1252, 278 Ill.Dec. 495 (4th Dist, 2003) Further detention of defendant following traffic stop not reasonable.

Illinois v. Cabales, 543 U.S. 405, 160 L.Ed.2d 842, 125 S.Ct. 834 (2005) a seizure that is justified solely by the interest in issuing a warning ticket to the driver can become unlawful if it is prolonged beyond the time reasonably required to complete that mission.

People v. LaPoint, 353 Ill. App. 3d, 328 (3rd Dist. 2004) Similarly, this court has previously found that a reasonable motorist would not feel free to leave or ignore the officer's request following the conclusion of a lawful traffic stop when the officer "injected his request for consent [to search the vehicle] into the seamless transition between mandatory and 'consensual' interaction."

People v. Holliday, 318 Ill. App 3d 106, 643 N.E. 2d, 587 (3d Dist, 2001) Consent only goes as far as authority granted, cannot go further into items, such as opening boxes, etc... (included suitcases)

People, I am not trying to cop an attitude here. I have been a lawyer since 1984, seven years as a police officer/deputy sheriff before that. I was a prosecutor for nine years and a criminal defense lawyer since then. I know from what I am talking about. However, I am told I need to provide proof, to back up my contention, or I will not be believed. Was that really necessary?

The High Road is supposed to be a free exchange of views on gun matters without rancor. I was flat out told I was wrong in what appeared to me to be a rather heavy-handed way. It being by the moderator, I find that especially troubling. Others chimed in along those lines.

Now I admit, that there are some things I don't know about. Shotguns are one of them, since I have never had a shotgun except as a police officer and one antique I restored (but is unsafe to shoot). I don't do taxes either nor will I talk about them. But criminal law is one thing I know about from doing it on a daily basis.

That said, it will be my last word on the subject. If you think I am all wet about this, fine. Let's just try to be nicer about it, okay. Remember, The High Road.

The Doc is out now. :cool:
 
DrLaw, Thank you for responding and posting cases. It IS appreciated. I have to go to work now but will start reading when I get home tonight.

As far as doubting you, please remember this is the internet. Anyone can post anything. When you have multiple posters giving different viewpoints about an important subject references are one way of trying to determine who is correct.

Thank you for responding and posting cases.

NukemJim
PS
However, I am told I need to provide proof, to back up my contention, or I will not be believed. Was that really necessary?
When you have two people posting 2 conflicting viewpoints, yes it is necessary. NJ
 
Last edited:
Sgt. McDonald testified that, as he approached
Mr. Muriel’s car, his suspicions were aroused by certain
features, such as the Illinois license plates, three police
support decals
affixed to the windows, a teddy bear on the
dashboard and an American flag on the front of the vehicle.
In his experience, Sgt. McDonald testified, such items are
used to divert attention from illicit activity.

Any judge dumb enough to believe that any of these things seperately or together represents PC for anything ought to be laughed off the bench.

Any police officer that can testify to this under oath with a straight face should be given some kind of medal for not choking on his own words.
 
You are claiming there is a risk. I don't see the risk. Cop says A, citizen says B. System invariably accepts A.

Really? And you know this how? Again, what it is is not cynicism but wrong based on listening to campfire stories and not fact. Just because the law doesn't go the way you think it should in a situation doesn't mean that something is wrong, it only means you don't understand either the law, the situation, or both.

Other than cases with compelling evidence to the contrary (such as a video tape) can you name a single case where cop says A, citizen says B, and the system has ever accepted B? Anytime in the last 500 years. Just once. Ever?
 
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