I'm a magnet for bad quality control

[TTv2]

ttv2, thanks for the info, your very brave mentioning unions here. before i went to college to become a registered nurse i belonged to a union. quality was our goal and we delivered quality. we could have used unions in the nursing proffesion as their was a lot of back stabbing with out them. it took me 5 years to get my union card and 2 years of higher math in college. i was highly trained and could put out a quality product. blue prints were my daily business.

People have poorly informed views on unions. I use to be against unions, then my first job was in a union shop and every job since has been a non-union place and every place since has a lot more problems both in quality and organization. Management doesn't care to do anything about those issues because there's nobody lighting a fire under them.

Even as a worker, we still want to to the best we can and make things as quickly and effectively as possible. Being told one night that the inspection lab we had been using for years was going to start being locked after first shift because gage pins were going missing was a bunch of crap. I told the manager that if the issue was the gage pins, instead of locking the entire lab up, why not buy a cabinet for the pins and lock it so the pins can't be accessed, but the machines in the lab can?

The response I got to that: work with me on this. Basically I was told deal with it. If we had a union, we could have had the union deal with the management and probably forced them into getting a cabinet. Otherwise, the quality would have suffered.

Of course the anti-union people reading this would say, "Sounds like a terrible place to work, find a better one."

That's a lot easier said than done in today's manufacturing economy in the US.

I've heard the same old crap from co-workers who are anti union, "Oh, you'll just have one guy sleeping, another guy picking his nose while they all get paid the same as a guy who is working" or "Unions kill companies."

Um... we already have that in non-union shops now, I've caught guys smoking dope on the clock, I've heard stories that other guys were sleeping on the job and they never got fired, so what ends up happening is employees with more years at a company get union like benefits and new guys are fodder. That's a double standard and that is worse than anything that a union brings.

And I can't name one company that was killed due to unions, I do know that NAFTA killed many companies and poor management kills companies tho.

 

[larryh1108]

I was a union member for almost 15 years. Unions were very important in getting sweat shops safe with fair pay and benefits. When the unions were formed, they were greatly needed. They provided a well needed service versus ownership who only cared about the bottom line, workers be damned. I even collect a pension check every month for my tenure.

After most of the larger employers joined the 20th century, they offered competitive wages and working conditions (that were fought for by the unions) and our workforce became more civilized and worker friendly. The unions weren't "needed" as before but many trades and factories were in too deep with the unions to them go. The unions were a big part of Americana. Then, like everything else, with power came corruption and greed. Unions began to strong-arm companies to give up more than they could afford to appease the unions and it's members. Many unions priced their members out of jobs due to greed and power. "You don't want to give us another raise and another week of paid vacation? Fine, we'll strike and shut you down." And they did. Don't believe it? Well, research the steel industry if you don't believe it. I saw it first hand.

As a paying union member, I was also in management most of my union life. I was stuck between upper management and the hourly union workers. As the unions were "needed" less and less due to competition for good help, I noticed a startling trend. I witnessed it. I worked it. I was in the middle of it.

This is what I saw in union shops all over the place:

*Good, honest employees will always have a job. These employees are worth their weight in gold. Every company needs them and wants them and will pay well for that good, honest employee. Most employees at most companies are good employees.

*Bad employees will usually lose their jobs. Those who come to work high, drunk or miss a lot of days won't keep their job very long. Those who steal actual product or time are also short lived. Unions can only protect any employee for so long and these employees always get themselves fired. They are given write ups, put into therapy classes or rehab but the habitually bad employees will end up losing their job from their own actions. Unions can't save them.

*The rest of the workers are there to collect a paycheck. They do the minimum to complete their work. They are usually sour people because management rides them for being slow, lazy, uninspired or just don't care about their job in general. They are slugs who only keep their job because the union allows them to be there due to the processes needed to discharge them. These sour employees usually try to get other, weaker employees to join their "group" to bad mouth management and to otherwise try to be thorns in the side of management and pro-company workers. Without a union, these very borderline employees would be let go but these employees know just how far they can push the envelope before they lose their jobs. These employees are the cancer in every company.

IMO, today's unions only keep the borderline employees working. This prevents companies that want to grow from culling out the cancers and hiring new people who may or may not be improvements. To me, unions do more harm in today's world than good for today's workers. They were great and well needed until the 80s or so. Not now.

 

[Catman42]

the union i belonged to built power plants and refineries. they had very skilled labor. i cant speak for all unions but i would rather work union than none union. some unions may need to clean up their act. as to strong arming the companies, i carried the contract around with me in a little book. i knew it frontwards and backwards. i also was forman and general foreman. made no dofference, i was union. when i had 12 man crews 11 where always very good workers. their was always 1 of the 12 i had to help along then fire him because he was too much a pain in the you know what. i never rode my men but give me ****ttttttttttttttttttttttt and he was gone. you find the 1 in 12 at every company, union or non union. my wife see patients in a large clinic. about 12 dr.s, pa/s and nurse practioners. one of them drives them all nuts. that person will be gone soon but as for now that person drives every one nuts including the patients. thats the way life is, must be a murphys law for it. you cant get away from these kinds of people, they also are increasing in numbers. you give a podium to a donkey and they wlll stand on it and bay all day. GOD HELP US ALL.

 

[Mr. Mosin]

the union i belonged to built power plants and refineries. they had very skilled labor. i cant speak for all unions but i would rather work union than none union. some unions may need to clean up their act. as to strong arming the companies, i carried the contract around with me in a little book. i knew it frontwards and backwards. i also was forman and general foreman. made no dofference, i was union. when i had 12 man crews 11 where always very good workers. their was always 1 of the 12 i had to help along then fire him because he was too much a pain in the you know what. i never rode my men but give me ****ttttttttttttttttttttttt and he was gone. you find the 1 in 12 at every company, union or non union. my wife see patients in a large clinic. about 12 dr.s, pa/s and nurse practioners. one of them drives them all nuts. that person will be gone soon but as for now that person drives every one nuts including the patients. thats the way life is, must be a murphys law for it. you cant get away from these kinds of people, they also are increasing in numbers. you give a podium to a donkey and they wlll stand on it and bay all day. GOD HELP US ALL.

Gent that taught me machinework was union trained (somewhat). He had to deal with some few chaps that "knew some people" and managed to get on his shop crew. They were not union trained. Supposed to be journeyman machinists, and couldn't even center a piece of round stock in a lathe chuck.

 

[Catman42]

trade unions make the members go through usually a 5 year apprentice ship. mine was 5 years. at the end of that 5 years i had 2 years of college in higher math, that was used for layout work from the blueprints. i was very skilled and when i hit the road i usually ended up foreman or general foreman. later when i went to college for being a registered nurse the math came in handy. i aced every math test for medication formulas. even showed the person who set up one test they were wrong and i was right on a question. when your dealing with peoples lives and mediacations you have no room for error. i remember i showed a doctor he would kill the patient with the wrong dose he ordered. he was really mad at me for showing him that. didnt even thank me but did it right when i pointed out he was veryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy wrong. i did it in a quiet nice way but man he did not liked to be taught. he was a retired military dr. and used to adulations and no one questioning him. drs make mistakes, a nurse has to be very knowlegabe as the nurse is the one that gives the med from the order. drs. dont like to be corrected but it was the nurses job to do so if the need arrived. the worst drs to work with was ex military. they like to bark orders and have people jump for them. i say to them welcome to the real world. my wife has a new exmilitary dr. in her clinic. that person is driving all the medical providers nuts. that person wants every one to jump for them all the time. that person will get fired in this real world if they keep it up.

 

[Bill460]

The issue is that unlike 40, 50, 60 years ago, there's too much CNC being used, too much CMM being used. Back in the day each dimension cut on a revolver was done on a manual mill using jigs or fixtures and it was one guy who did it for decades. Boring work, but the quality was unmatched because that guy knew exactly what he had to do to make a good product.

Today, instead of one dimension cut per machine, it's all dimensions cut on one machine.

I watched a video of a shirt & tie at S&W talking about the tooling being computerized for the CNC's like it's doesn't even need people to check the parts it makes. There was video of a slide being inspected on a CMM and he was saying they don't need go/no-go gages anymore.

IMO, go/no-go gages are the best, most cost effective inspection tool you can give a machine operator to ensure quality.

I can tell you with how slow CMM's are, not every single part is getting inspected on a CMM, they inspect in batches. I don't know what the percent rate is of inspected parts, but a place I worked at if they get 500 parts, they inspect 50 of them. If 45 of them pass inspection, all 500 parts are good.

That's the way it is today.

And that is not necessarily a bad thing. Manual machining is no longer profitable with mass produced firearms. Companies would go broke making guns today the way they did 50 years ago. Marlin was / is a perfect example of this. Their old manual equipment was worn out, and they had no money to replace it.

The only way they could produce good product, was having those same machines being operated by operators almost as old as they were, all applying tribal knowledge, that was passed down operator to operator. That is no way to operate a modern manufacturing facility, and expect to do it at a profit.

They were going broke because they couldn't charge enough for their product. The Marlin Golden 39-A .22 was a perfect example. They have been discontinued today because they can no longer manufacture them at a profit. They offer them on a semi custom basis, and the price is well into 4 digits. Few can afford, or are willing to pay that for a .22 rifle.

Modern CNC machining centers and robotics are capable of producing large amounts of very accurate parts. Today's modern automotive industry is proof of this. Go back to the 60's when the auto workers unions ran Detroit, as well as the auto companies. Most every car sold had problems that caused the buyer to be forced to bring it back to the dealer several times to get fixed.

Squeaks, rattles, leaks, accessories that either wouldn't work, or else worked poorly. When I was a kid my parents NEVER purchased a new car that didn't have to go back 3 or 4 times before it was right. And all of them were, "Hand built by American Union workers".... And they were all built like crap.

Fast forward to today with modern robotic assembly and welding methods. Coupled with ISO 9000, Six Sigma, and many other certified manufacturing methods. Todays cars are far more complex, and yet in spite of that fact they are far more dependable. Very few have the same petty manufacturing problems cars from the 60's had.

Not only that, but the warranties are better, and they run cleaner and get better fuel economy. Not to mention they are more powerful, and last far longer. All with less maintenance being demanded from the owner. And they get better and better every year.

Gone are the fat, lazy, overly expensive, non productive union workers. They have been replaced with accurate, precise automation and robotics that doesn't call in sick, come in late, leave early, take bathroom and cigarette breaks, demand better benefits every 15 minutes, or get tired halfway through the day.

The result is better, more dependable automobiles, that could not be manufactured applying hand assembly methods used in the 60's. They wouldn't be able to sell the car for what they would have to charge in order to turn a profit.

Guns are no different. Today you can buy a Browning Citori O/U built by Miroku in Japan on modern computerized machining centers. And it is still affordable, and every bit as smooth and high of quality, with just as good of a fit and finish as one built in Belgium, that took 4 times as long to make 50 years ago.... And cost an arm and a leg.

Anyone can make bad parts on any machine. But todays modern machining centers make it much easier, faster, cheaper, and far more accurate to produce good parts, than having a bunch of old worn out manual machines and tooling, that only a handful of people can produce good parts on....... Assuming they even show up on time to do it.

The problem today is Americans like to scream about quality, or the lack of it. The other problem is they scream even louder when it comes time to pay for it. Modern CNC Machining Centers and robotics, coupled with ultra modern manufacturing methods allow them to achieve good quality, and still not go broke doing it.

 

[bdickens]

All this pro-union sentiment is real cute, but I really, I mean REALLY, don't want to have to pay dues to an organization that is going to funnel part of that money into a political party that stands in direct opposition to nearly every single one of my core values. And that wants to disarm my wife and leave her defenseless.

 

[larryh1108]

Did I miss the pro-union love?

 

[TikkaShooter]

Sold it, don't care

I can't say I disagree with your "sold it."

My expectations for my "civilian" pistols and my military ones are different. I expect my civilian pistols to shoot whatever, I buy. In all fairness. my military surplus pistols were designed to shoot hardball or FMJ. With 1940 era, 1911-A1 or P38s or even P1s, they were designed to shoot FMJ which they do quite well..

 

[Bill460]

All this pro-union sentiment is real cute, but I really, I mean REALLY, don't want to have to pay dues to an organization that is going to funnel part of that money into a political party that stands in direct opposition to nearly every single one of my core values. And that wants to disarm my wife and leave her defenseless.

That's a good and valid point. The other biggest problem with labor unions, is they are much like sex, drugs, and alcohol. In that they are powerful, and tend to be easily abused. Just because a little is good, it doesn't necessarly mean more is better, and too much is just enough. But unfortunately that's how they usually end up.

This happens because the entire concept of labor unions is flawed from the get go. When you start paying everyone much the same, "for the common good of all", the "common good" part quickly disappears. And is replaced with non productivity, and many times outright laziness.

This is the basic reason communism and socialism has failed miserably most everywhere it's ever been applied. The whole concept of, "income inequality" is constantly being preached by all of these socialists / communists as a bad thing. Yet is has to exist. Simply because how can you possibly eliminate it?..... By paying an uneducated pizza delivery man the same as a cardiovascular surgeon? Skill level dictates pay... Not, "social justice". That's insane.

Socialists constantly harp about paying everyone a, "living wage". The problem is those wages were never meant for anyone to live on in the first place. You're not going to support a family of 3 in a home with a car, health care, education, groceries, and clothing, by working part time at Wendy's or Wal-Mart. So why should these people get roughly close to the same wage as a more skilled profession? The fact is they shouldn't.

Those jobs are entry level positions for kids first entering the workplace. In order to pick up a few bucks during the Summer. Or else for a short while until they enter college, trade school, or some type of a higher learning facility, in order to accomplish learning a craft that WILL support them for the rest of their lives.

Unions, along with the socialists who want them, accomplish nothing in the long run, except to throw this whole process out of kilter, until it all comes crashing down. Just like it did in Detroit with the auto workers, and in Gary, Indiana at the steel mills. And more recently, the large aircraft industry in southern California. (There are currently no large aircraft, either military or commercial, being produced there any longer).

Just like all the rest of the long term union failures, out of control wages and benefits that have become far too costly is the reason why. The unions that controlled those professions simply priced their workers out of the market. Now, as a direct result, they enjoy the accomplishment of being the highest paid unemployed workers in their cities.

 

[desmobob]

^ Very, very well-said. Thanks.

 

[Officers'Wife]

My opinion of unions is just that, mine… So I'm going back to the main subject of poor quality. The newest weapon that I have was built in 1972 according to the serial number. I know that it is gone through at least two previous owners. The only time I've had it malfunction was due to bad ammunition which from what I hear is common with 22 rimfire.

My Colt Commander was a gift from my uncle and I would guess built in the sixties. It functions well enough and is dependable enough for me to use it as my carry weapon.

On the other hand, when my husband bought his AR-15 brand-new he had a number of problems with it that the local gunsmith had to repair for him. After the third trip it functions well and he is had no further problems. Had it needed a fourth trip to the gunsmith, I would have told him to let the gunsmith keep the thing and move on. By the same token, both my brother and my dad went with me when I bought the bolt action Remington I gifted my husband when he left the military. Between the three of us we rejected a number of items and the final decision has yet to need any repair.

The idea that buying used is getting someone else's problem is not necessarily true. The idea that buying new is falling prey to slipshod quality control is equally questionable. Whether it's guns, cars, tractors or husbands… You either use your judgment or you trust your luck. Judgment is far more dependable in the long run.

 

[desmobob]

IMO, today's unions only keep the borderline employees working. This prevents companies that want to grow from culling out the cancers and hiring new people who may or may not be improvements. To me, unions do more harm in today's world than good for today's workers. They were great and well needed until the 80s or so. Not now.

I was a union worker for 26 years. Although I gave the union credit for my decent working conditions and good pay and benefits, it seemed the only time they ever took any action locally was to occasionally protect some idiot who really should have been fired. Just when we thought we were finally going to be rid of some employee who was worthless to his management and coworkers, the union would rush in and keep him in his job. It created situations where good employees left because of conditions that were created in part by the bad employees.

I can see (have seen) both the pros and cons of unions and was never personally able to make a really good argument for or against them. Overall, I guess I'm on the negative side. But there are a lot of unions and I may have a different opinion if I had been in a different one, or had not been in any union at all...

 

[TTv2]

I was a union worker for 26 years. Although I gave the union credit for my decent working conditions and good pay and benefits, it seemed the only time they ever took any action locally was to occasionally protect some idiot who really should have been fired. Just when we thought we were finally going to be rid of some employee who was worthless to his management and coworkers, the union would rush in and keep him in his job. It created situations where good employees left because of conditions that were created in part by the bad employees.

I can see (have seen) both the pros and cons of unions and was never personally able to make a really good argument for or against them. Overall, I guess I'm on the negative side. But there are a lot of unions and I may have a different opinion if I had been in a different one, or had not been in any union at all...

I remember when I got my first job in a machine shop I was talking to a machine operator who was in the union (I worked in the office as an engineer, which was non union) and he told me "there's 99 reasons not to be in a union and 100 reasons to be in a union."

All unions are going to have negative aspects, but not having a union will also have negative aspects. All the talk of bad/unproductive employees being protected by unions... the same thing happens at non-union shops; if management thinks you're special, you get treated special. You can lie about guys assaulting you at work and when it's proven that didn't happen your punishment is a half day suspension.

The more that unions get pushed out of companies for various reasons, the more said companies are going to try to get away with in lowering production support for the workers, lower wages, etc.

For instance where I work now we had one belt sander for deburring parts, but 9 guys in the department on days. Recently a second sander was brought in and I said to one of my co-workers, "See, they bought that because they saw people wasting time waiting in line or walking back and forth to it and had we the owners/management to buy one, they would have told us to buy our own."

I won't even get into the condition and quality and organization of the tooling, but suffice it to say if there was a union they'd force management to do more to help us during production. Just last week I was on a job and went to change inserts on a tool, spent 30 minutes looking for them only to find out we didn't have any. I've seen guys lose several hours of pay because other tools weren't available to keep a machine running and they had to go home.

That stuff wouldn't be happening in a union place.

 

[desmobob]

"there's 99 reasons not to be in a union and 100 reasons to be in a union."

That's a darn good way for him to sum up his thoughts on unions. I like it.

 

[BJJ223]

I thought I was the only one. About every other gun I buy has had problems and had to go back. I have had several refunds from the manufacturer direct:

3 SP101s - cylinder binds - refunds
2 Redhawks - cylinder binds / fixed
2 Stag 10 - short stroke / fixed
Winchester 70 - action binds / refund
Remington 700 - feeding from mag / fixed
2 Montefeltros - won’t eject / at factory now
4 Remington 870s - shells stick / sold them
Colt AR15 - short stroke / sold
Bushmaster - short stroke / sold
SW617 - cylinder frozen / sold
Mini14 - wouldn’t eject. Sold.

All new guns. Worst was the 870s. I hope the CEO rots in hell for destroying such a great gun. I have seen dozens with the same problems at skeet.