I'm baffled - why does this happen?

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

mugsie

Member
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
727
I strive to be the best I can be always, and this translates into my shooting as well. One of the things I enjoy doing is shooting little bug holes. I've built most all of my bolt action rifles, tuned the ammo, and concentrate concentrate concentrate. So here's the delemma - I can shoot tiny teeny little bug holes off a bipod all day long. I bench rest my rifles and my groups open up. I'm usually 3/4 moa off a rest, yet off a bipod they are seriously under. This happens consistantly to me using a variety of calibers, from 308, 6.5, 6br, 223 name it and it seems to happen. I concentrated on the rifle torquing in the rest, I watched the fit, the recoil, NPOA etc yet I can't seem to break the habit.
Any ideas?
 
At some point, you can't work these things out for yourself because it's difficult to shoot and analyze simultaneously. If you really want to get better, you're going to need to find a shooting coach who can help you. You might want to start with a local gun club and see if they have any instructors or shooters who would be willing to help.
 
What does the bottom of your stock look like...flat or round? If flat, how wide is it? A bi-pod will keep the rifle pretty much level (less canting). If you are using a sand bag with a round stock, you are more likely to cant. Even a little makes a considerable difference. +1 for ask some local shootist to watch you to see what you're doing.

Geno
 
The bipod is attached at the same point on the gun for every shot.

That's hard to do with a rifle unless your front rest has a stop to push the gun up against. The point being, you change the harmonics of the barrel vibration if the gun isn't touching the rest at the same place every time.

If the groups are always bigger off the rest, I'd try shooting a group with the very front of the stock on the rest. Then a group or two with the rest touching the stock an inch back from the front of the stock. And so forth all the way back. Take notes as you go.

Or maybe your front rest has too much sand and the rifle is bouncing a hair. Or not enough sand. Or the bag is too slick. Or not.

How hard are you shouldering the stock or are you letting it recoil freely? Are you gripping the gun with your trigger hand? Hard? Are you holding the gun with your other hand too?

How hard is your rear rest?

I got a million questions. :)
 
I would review your benchrest setup, as it seems that the setup isn't as compatible with your technique as the bipod seems to be.
As Geno mentioned, the bipod forces you to have consistent leveling, and nesting on bags does not.
A bunch of different dynamics can be in play here, and you need to have someone observe while you setup and shoot.


NCsmitty
 
Just as an aside, i'd be PROUD of being more accurate off a 'pod than bagged up. Means you are a well tuned component of the shooting system yourself, and your accuracy is more likely to be repeatable "in the field" IMHO.
 
Thanks guys. I will have a couple of other people analyze my technique off the rest. I'm not complaining about the groups, I'm very happy with them, my only issue is why the big difference?
I appreciate all the comments and suggestions. I know what will happen - my groups off the bipod will open up and now I should be happy because they're both the same!:what:
 
I watched a fella shooting off rests once here at Ben Avery and saw as he grew more and more frustrated with the rifle. He - like you - expected the perfection lavished on all preparatory aspects of shooting to render like results.
In between one of the shooting iterations I offered him one of my Harris bipods which he took gladly as he knew he felt more comfortable with a pod yet had not installed or forgot his.
Hi-ho the derry oh! He got the groups he had hoped for and much enthusiasm ensued.
Curious, he stripped the pod off to re-shoot off the bags and found his groupings and self confidence shattered.
Fortunately, I was watching him closely from 90 degrees to the side and noted he did not have exactly the same posture - and thus interaction with the rifle - from one shot to the next as he did with the bi-pod.
To check this, he replaced the pod and fired again. Crowds cheered, women wept and politicians were overcome with fits of honesty... The hoped for groupings had returned!
Now, in thinking things over, one of the problems was his pride in the rifle's preparation. That is, he was so proud of the stock's finish that subconsciously he would alternately hunch or stretch to reach the rifle rather than slide that pretty stock on the rest. Additionally, as noted above we could note a varied level on his part while bench shooting by taping two pieces of weighted string on either side of his outsized Palma stock.
Of course, these particulars may have nothing to do with your own personal ballisti-nasties but, just a couple one-sumpins to ponder.
 
Shooting from a bench, sandbags, supported , unsupported, or any other position you can think of. They still require the fundamentals of stability on your part, which means physical effort on your part to keep the weapon as stable as possible. From the way you hold (stock weld and bracing), right down to the squeeze of the trigger and follow through.
That all takes constant practice and concentration, another reason to spend more time at the range. :D
 
Personally I find shooting off bags more difficult than shooting off a bipod and a rear bag. Virgil King solved many of the issues involved in using sand bags by using a combination of casting sand and Portland cement in leather bags. He would wet the leather thoroughly and then pound the stock into it and let it dry to the shape of the forend. Talcum powder and graphite applied to the bags would let the rifle slide smoothly without disturbing the bags. Seeing as Mr King regularly was able to shoot .025 inch group in the warehouse makes me think he knew what he was doing. He felt the key was disturbing the bags as little as possible shot to shot. He also use a stop to make sure the stock was in the same position for each shot.

Personally if I was doing significantly better with a bipod that is what I would use.
 
Virgil King solved many of the issues involved in using sand bags by using a combination of casting sand and Portland cement in leather bags. He would wet the leather thoroughly and then pound the stock into it and let it dry to the shape of the forend. Talcum powder and graphite applied to the bags would let the rifle slide smoothly without disturbing the bags.
_________________________________________________________________________

WOW, I never heard of that before, but it sounds like a very worthy solution. I would like to try that, except for one thing... All of my rifles are different, so I would have to have a custom bag like that for each one. But I like the sound of the whole idea and think it's worth a try, at least for one or two of my favorite shooting rifles anyway.
 
ApacheCoTodd - The only fault I can find in any of your statements is " politicians were overcome with fits of honesty"

Now I know you're pulling my leg! This could never happen.
 
I'm guessing you're shooting an AR?
Another guess is perhaps you're loading the bipod with some forward pressure. This will result in better accuracy with an AR in most cases. It's not possible Off a rest. Again, just a wild guess since the same thing happens to me with AR platform guns.
 
HILLBILLY-06 - WOW, I never heard of that before, but it sounds like a very worthy solution. I would like to try that, except for one thing... All of my rifles are different, so I would have to have a custom bag like that for each one. But I like the sound of the whole idea and think it's worth a try, at least for one or two of my favorite shooting rifles anyway.
Click to expand...

you might like to read the whole article...

http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html
 
Have not read the article posted,so this may have been covered. Last trip to the range another BR shooter said that he noticed I was placing my sandbag tripod stand on a piece of carpeting always available at the range. He suggested that a better way was to remove the carpet and place the stand on the concrete bench using the pointed metal feet instead of the rubber feet. I was packing up to leave and have not tested his advice yet.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

R
  • Locked
How Does Anyone really Shoot Best Groups
Replies
20
Views
1K
JohnBT
J
lionking
  • Locked
The difference when you use good shooting habits VS not
Replies
3
Views
377
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
D
T
  • Locked
Bags, bipods, and rests - how does accuracy compare?
Replies
8
Views
623
Will Learn
W
J
  • Locked
Why do sniper, varmint, or precision rifles have to be big and heavy?
2
Replies
27
Views
5K
aspade
A
F
  • Locked
Do I Need to Replace Tupperware Stocks ...
Replies
10
Views
1K
Sheepdog1968
S
Back
Top