I'm Suspecious of this Aucion

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LubeckTech

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I'm Suspicious of this Auction

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=365763948

After I started bidding on this Model 10 I noticed the area of the butt where the serial number should be has been ground away! In the past two days I have emailed the seller twice asking if the serial number on the frame up by the crane is intact and recieved no reply. My maximun bid on it is $155.00 and if outbid probably won't bid again but if I were to win would it be unreasonable for me to ask the seller for the complete SN so I could have the local Sheriff's Department run a NCIC check on it? Under the circumstances I would not be comfortable completing the purchase without some assurance it was not stolen.
 
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It is absolutely not unreasonable. I am not sure what gunbroker's policy is to require it though. Once you bid, you have agreed to their terms
 
Under different circumstances I may agree with your apprehension but since the seller has a good rating and has a FFL, I wouldn't worry to much about it. His description seems to be very honest also as he mentions that it looks like someone tried to grind away the serial number. Him also being in the Big Brother Nanny State I doubt he would try to pull a fast one. Just my opinion though. Do whatever you are comfortable with.
 
I'm immediately suspicious of anyone who refuses to deal with C&R holders. Maybe he wants to avoid buyers who might realize the problem.
 
LubeckTech said:
...I noticed the area of the butt where the serial number should be has been ground away!...
Click to expand...
You might want to consider the following:

  1. It is a violation of federal law to possess a gun with a defaced serial number. Specifically 18 USC 922(k) provides (emphasis added):
    ....(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce....
    Click to expand...

  2. Under 18 USC 924, the penalty for possession of a gun on which the manufacturer's serial number has been removed, obliterated or altered is up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine. Also, since that is a felony, a conviction would mean a lifetime loss of gun rights.
 
I wouldn't get anywhere near that gun. I'm even suspicious of the frame being original as that line down the middle of the butt looks like a casting mold mark. I've seen a few non-firing replicas that had a line like that.

As for other serial numbers, there should be one on the bottom of the barrel and another on the rear face of the cylinder. Unfortunately neither of them are "the" serial that counts. (Only the one on the butt.) The number in the crane is meaningless as it is an assembly number that may be duplicated on other guns.
 
Thanks Frank!!
And everyone for your information.
I guess the bottom line is even if the SN on the frame in front of the cylinder is intact there is more than a "reasonable doubt " that the gun is legal to sell, transport or possess. I have already informed GunBroker of the situation and basically they could care less which I think is VERY unwise on their part. Tonight I am informing the seller that I am withdrawing my bid (GB said seller could cancel the bid) and even if he refuses there is no way I would complete the transaction if my bid won. A single bad feed back out of 79 is NOT worth avoiding a felony conviction.
 
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A interesting development

Just got an email from the seller right after I informed him I was cancelling my bid and he claims the SN is under the grips and it is correct for the gun. Interesting that he ignored my previous 2 emails about the SN. Is this possible or is he full of it?? All of the K frame SNs I have ever seen have been on the bottom of the butt and were visible when grips (like the ones in the picture) that left the bottom of the butt exposed were on.
 
Him also being in the Big Brother Nanny State I doubt he would try to pull a fast one.
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Like New York? I'm not saying this is, but I wouldn't put something like this past Bloomberg.

I'm far from a Model 10 expert, but I seem to remember the serial number being on the bottom, as well. It doesn't really look tampered with, though.
 
Does he show a pic of the serial under the grips? Does it look like it was scribed in or light faint marks? I think you can buy a punch kit with the numbers I assume it wouldn't be deep tho which should be obvious.
 
The number on the frame under the yoke is not the serial number. I am sure there are a lot of Smiths registered by that assembly number but it is not right.
At one time Smiths were numbered on the bottom flat of the barrel, the back face of the cylinder, even the underside of the extractor and the inside of the grips. But this gun may be too late for all that.

Under the grips?
I have not seen one like that.

That seam down the butt looks very odd.

I would not be interested.
 
I own at least 8 k frames (just picked up a 1 7/8" model 10 tonight) and all of them have SNs on the butt bottom. It is also funny that the finish on this gun is rough and no restoration work has been started except for the very place the serial number should be. I am going to clean my latest model 10 and 13 purchases tonight and am going to look for numbers inside the grips. They might be some kind of assembly or part numbers which are not serial numbers. He told me he got the gun from the "Suffolk County Police Department" and was told it was the correct serial number - maybe it came from the evidence room. Also I never heard of a county police department BUT I don't know everything. All of this seems very odd.
 
Can you retract your bid? With all this suspicion, this gun could be being sold by the blessed virgin herself and I'd still run like hell in the other direction.

It's not like there aren't other Model 10's around. There is a lot of screwy stuff that can go on with online sales and I've been burned twice myself. If your gut tells you to get out of it, get out of it.
 
Jim Watson is right.
The numbers the seller thinks are serial numbers are assembly numbers.
I pulled the grips off of the 10-6 stubby I picked up tonight and 2 of my other k frames and there were numbers engraved on the cylinder release side grip frame but they were 5 digit numbers only (no letters) and had no relation to the SN on the bottom of the butt. From what I have read FFLs commonly mistake these numbers for serial numbers. I am going to recommend to the seller he close his auction and call S&W and describe the gun - they will set him (or me) straight. It is a pitty that someone ruined a decent gun but I suspect it "walked" out of an evidence room somewhere looking for a sucker to take it home.
 
The serial # of a S&W Model 10 is on the bottom of the butt. The grips pictured are not covering the bottom, so the serial # has clearly been ground off. This gun is illegal to possess, period, end of story.

IIWY, I would retract my bid and notify gunbroker that the listing is for an illegal firearm.
 
I found it interesting that GunBroker's attitude seemed to be one of "yea, so what". They told me to contact the seller and ask him to send them a bid retraction request. If I were them I would not want an auction for an illegal item o n my site. The only way I know of that gun would be legal would be if it were disassembled and the frame cut in half.
 
Since it seems that it is illegal to own that gun I would let the seller know that you are retracting your bid and unless he wants his local authorities knowing he has it he better not leave negative feedback. You could probably get him in a lot more trouble than he can get you in
 
I would call the police in his area and have them check it out with how he has acted so far. He apparently is not someone we want on our side, and we need to watch out for each other. Especially with the MAIG crew trying to score points off the current situation.
 
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