impact/knock-down/ft-lbs??

[coyote315]

Gents:
I own a very capable .308win i love reloading for, that I enjoy shooting at targets btwn 100 and 500 yards. I don't go much further very often, but it's a 20" barrel w/ a great scope and I like it.
I owned (past tense) a .280rem, or 7mm express; in love w/ the cartridge but not the model so I sold it, and kept my reloading stuff, thinking that I would build another rifle to use it.
Every day it seems I learn something new about reloading. I had previously thought that my .308 was my "deer rifle" and my .280 was my "if i ever get to go after elk/carribu/big north american game" rifle. After all, when loaded w/ 150-160gr bullets it's almost a 7mm mag...
So I was comparing the 2 cartridges against each other in some free software at hornady and nosler and my brain came apart. It seemed from them that the drop and impact was almost equal Uh,...
I would like to hear thoughts on killing game larger than a whitetail with both, out to practical ranges of 5-6 hundred yards...
Maybe I should build a long-range .338 winmag instead? No, I don't think I want to go up to a Lapua; I want to fill the "everything bigger than deer in north america" gap. Think the 7mm is up to it?

 

[coyote315]

to clarify: 154gr 7mm vs 165gr .308

 

[rcmodel]

out to practical ranges of 5-6 hundred yards

IMO: 5-6 yards is not 'practical hunting range' for any caliber, or most riflemen under hunting / field conditions.

A deer or elk can walk out from in front of the bullet by the time it gets there.

So an ethical kill is very hard to assure.

And if you don't drop the animal in it's tracks?
It will be harder still to hike 5-6 hundred yards and find the exact spot you shot it to even start looking for a blood trail.

I think either the .308 or 7mm is 'up to it' any range you have any business shooting at big game animals from a field shooting position.
Especially in the wind.

rc

 

[coyote315]

well now, THAT'S a good point i hadn't thought of: here east of the mississippi I considered it "long range" to kill a buck 368 yards down a powerline cut. So, yeah, regardless of riflemanship, time of flight on anything less than a rail gun would become a consideration for ethical hunting for certain! Good point.
Well then, limiting range to 400 yards at the most extreme, I'll re-examine the load data. IIRC the 7mm gives me equal knockdown power with a flatter trajectory at those shorter distances.

 

[Reefinmike]

50bmg is your only feasible option brother.

 

[coyote315]

ooooh, i was afraid someone was going to say that I need to get a '50.
It's probably only a matter of time, but i'm not gonna invest that money until I'm able to handload my .308 and shoot 10 in a decent circle at an even 1k yards. Once i've perfected that I will work on getting the big rifle

 

[Robert]

Your .308 is plenty capable for elk. Or you could do what I did, just to be different, and buy a 375H&H Mag. Better recoil and less meat damage than the 338 and 300 mags and will put a 270gr bullet in almost the same poi as a 180gr 30-06 at 300 yards. Just a thought.

 

[jmr40]

The jump from 308 to 338 WM is not that great really. ANY round in between the 2 will work just fine on anything in North America from elk size game and under. Pick any one you like, learn how to shoot it, put good bullets in it and go hunting

Using energy numbers alone just doesn't tell the whole story. Energy never killed anything. Bullets that hit vitals, penetrate deep and expand to do maximum damage is what kills stuff. Energy numbers are one way to predict how much damage a bullet will cause, but energy numbers don't take into consideration bullet placement nor bullet construction. Both of which are more important. Modern bullet construction today has leveled the field and bullets as small as 243 are not unrealistic elk killers.

I could hunt the world with 3 centerfire calibers if I wanted. A 223 would work for deer and smaller. A 375 mag for big bears and up. In between I could literally pick ANY round from 308 up to 375 and do just fine. You can make arguments that some shoot slightly flatter, some have slightly more energy, or larger diameter bullets, but they all would work. I might just need to get a little closer for the shot with some. But arguing about any of them is splitting hairs.

I would like to hear thoughts on killing game larger than a whitetail with both, out to practical ranges of 5-6 hundred yards...

In my opinion 308, especially from a 20" barrel tops out at 350-400 yards for game larger than deer, lets call it elk. A 270, 30-06, 280, could reach 400-500 with good bullets and handloads. if you want to push the range beyond 500 then the 7mm and 300 mags come into play. Most of the 338's don't offer any advantage over the 300's in my opinion. Most will shoot equal bullet weights slightly faster, but the better aerodynamics of the 30's mean flatter trajectory and more energy at longer ranges. On paper the 33's show more energy up close, but who cares.

If you truly want to shoot long range at larger game the 338 lapua is the one 338 that will shoot heavy bullets fast enough to offer an advantage over the 30's. I have a BIL that built one and has taken deer and elk at 700+ yards. Not my cup of tea, but it can be done.

FWIW, I'm a 308, 30-06, 300 WSM user. Choices made simply because that is what I ended up with. I'd be just as well off with any of about a dozen others.

 

[coyote315]

you guys have some good points; which should save me some money. I'll shoot my .308 til the barrel is gone or I can go 10/10 at a thousand yards and get bored w/ it. Then I'll buy a 338win and put my good trijicon on it and start all over... As for the .280, I'll keep my eyes open for a bargain and enjoy that, too.

 

[d2wing]

There really isn't all that much difference. Shooting a deer over 400 yards is iffy. Things come into play like range estimation, bullet expansion rates, less than precise hit to kill zone,
The difficulty of tracking a wounded deer that far away. I did it once with a 7 MM but won't again. The deer went down then crawled off and suffered until I found it and finished it. I did not feel good about it.

 

[coyote315]

yeah, that makes sense. The bullet-construction science fascinated me. I used an Amax on that buck i referenced, and had all the time in the world to use a range finder and a bipod. Was very happy with the bang-flop I got out of it! Bullet came in about 1.3 inches higher than I planned because I was off a little on angle of site, but it was awesome. Maybe I'll just hang up that as my one long-range kill and stop there; bigger/more isn't always better. I'll settle for consistently good.

 

[interlock]

I am sorry, I don't support hunting at these ranges. There are certain circumstances... Ie camel control in Australia but that is specialised equipment and skilled set up stuff. But not general hunting. The .308 is a good hunting round. I limit my hunting shots to about 200-230 yards with 30-06. If I were to wound one I would be able to go straight to where it was and put the dog on the scent. .. but I don't wound deer often. I know it's each to their own but really we have to give the quarry the respect and humane treatment it deserves.

(I have donned my tin hat and flak jacket and await the barrage of indignant shots to begin)

 

[coyote315]

funny thing, we were just having that conversation earlier ^^^ about time of flight and game moving.
Shooting that far is fun for recreation at targets; those steel pieces are really heavy so they move slow. And, admittedly, I became attracted to the challenge of it during the war, but I have a lot of respect for a game animal and don't wish to wound it. Treat everything in the way you would like to be treated extends to "shoot everything in the manner you would wish to be harvested" too; i.e, quick and clean. So, it's nice to be relieved of the idea of making a gamegetter in .338 win or so... the nice thing is, as I mentioned above, that means I can keep using the .308 for both roles (killing game to 400ish, targets to the limit of my ability) which prevents me from having to build the rifle. So now I have more money to free up for other things

 

[Andrew Leigh]

I am sorry, I don't support hunting at these ranges. There are certain circumstances... Ie camel control in Australia but that is specialised equipment and skilled set up stuff. But not general hunting. The .308 is a good hunting round. I limit my hunting shots to about 200-230 yards with 30-06. If I were to wound one I would be able to go straight to where it was and put the dog on the scent. .. but I don't wound deer often. I know it's each to their own but really we have to give the quarry the respect and humane treatment it deserves.

(I have donned my tin hat and flak jacket and await the barrage of indignant shots to begin)

Not indignant but one should consider terrain as sometimes being the determinant of range. On this side of the pond we have two extremes and everything inbetween. From open prairie type country to heavy bush. Towards the end of a hunting season it is often difficult to get closer than 250 - 300m. I have no difficulty at 250m, I have NEVER tracked an animal (I am sure my day will come though). I doubt the Mountain Goat hunters could ever get to within 200yds, could be wrong.

The other matter is ability, some people consider hitting a 6" paper plate at 100yds sufficient for hunting purposes, that may well be the case but these hunters these would battle at 200 - 300yds. So I think it is a combination of a couple of factors.

There are people here who harvest Springbok (and others) for the venison market, they ALL shoot headshots as no butcher will take any spoiled meat. These guys are regularly at 300m. Small calibres, heavy barrels, bipods, silencers, and large magnification scopes these boys do one hole groups at 100m in field conditions.

 

[coyote315]

you make a good point; I would say the eternal-factor ultimate range- limit would come from time-of-flight, which will vary some by round. The rest is training equipment and availability.
I'll have to calculate ToF for whatever I wind up using; maybe that 280rem has a big advantage there.
As for inside-400-yards, I would give you a resounding "absolutely!" If you can't kill squirrels and small game at that distance, you definitely aren't ready to ethically hunt bigger things.

 

[Ankeny]

Not indignant but one should consider terrain as sometimes being the determinant of range.

Absolutely. I have killed a couple of dozen elk past what some of these folks consider the limits of being "ethical". FWIW, a 400 yard shot with the right skill and equipment is a chip shot on a 10 inch gong.

 

[fragout]

Like anything...... I got to try it myself to find out firsthand if a cartridge and specific load works thru a specific rifle. ( Hogs are a decent indicator, and where I usually start concerning loads I develop for hunting with a specific rifle.)

I document all different loads I put thru my rifle (M14S), IOT have a better understanding of what said load will accomplish.

Here is some specifics on the rifle, ammunition, and distances involved in a few past hunts...

Rifle sports an 18.5in Criterion chrome lined tube.(308)
Rd count thru the tube at the time of this shot was 12,694.

Ammo = 165gr Fed Sierra Game King BTSP. ( BC = .405)

Chronograph averaged at 2680fps MV with 2631 ft/lbs of energy in the same area I was hunting, so atmospherics were very close at the time of the hunt itself.

The critter below was taken at roughly 165-175 yards with the above ammo and rifle. ( Broadside thru the boiler room. Bullet passed thru leaving an exit wound right at the size of a golf ball or so).

I ran the numbers thru a ballistic program, and this is what I came up with.

Velocity at 175yards = 2305fps with 1950 ft/lbs of energy.

Long story short...... the elk ended up in the freezer via one well placed 308 bullet.

I haven't hunted moose yet, but when the time comes, I'll be using 308 Win for this role as well.

 

[fragout]

A close up pic of an exit wound (whitetail deer) taken at exactly 465yards.

Rifle = M1A. ( Optic was SWFA SS 10X)
Bullet = 168gr BTHP (BC = .464)

At impact, the bullet was traveling at 1840 fps with 1260 ft/lbs of energy.

At the time of the shot, this deer was not aware of my presence, and dropped right where it was standing at impact.
If it wanted to move out of the way, it would have had less than 700 milliseconds to accomplish this feat, as this bullet's flight time at 500 yards = 691 milliseconds. (.691 seconds) In comparison, 280Rem 140gr Win Ballistic silvertip = around .011 of a second faster TOF at 500 yards. (Note: All figures can and will vary depending on a whole list of things, such as bbl length, muzzle velocity, ballistic coefficient, etc....etc.... but the differences aren't going to amount to much.)

I have also used the same cartridge to take coyote and hogs with out further than 500 yards. (I've also taken bear with this same cartridge, but due to the terrain, the distances were under 100 yards)

So, yes...... your 308 chambered rifle has the potential to be utilized in both of your roles.
In my case, it is more feasible to stick with this cartridge, as I'm fond of the rifle that I use....and am constantly utilizing the same rifle to be a more consistent shooter. ( IE.... most of my shooting time with a centerfire rifle is spent here instead of a wide range of different rifles and cartridges)
From an economical standpoint, 308 costs less in my case because that is what I stock up on, and reload for concerning centerfire rifle.
I'm not saying that 308 Win is any better or more powerful than the other cartridges spoken of here on this thread....... Only stating that it has been "enough gun" for hunting the way I like to hunt.

FWIW..... The more important factor equates to shot placement..... ie..... figuring out POA/POI at "X" distance away, ( close as well as far)...... and being able to consistently hit my mark while in the field, and under the various weather conditions I hunt in.
This is where the challenge truly is when hunting at increased distances. When to take the shot, and more importantly......when NOT to take the shot.

 

[coyote315]

my sentiments exactly;`

fragout; that's exactly the kind of math I was in the middle of crunching... and I'm supporting your conclusions both on Time of Flight and on impact numbers. Especially with good quality bullets that do their job at the appropriate speeds.

 

[twofifty]

Guys, 691 milliseconds is .691 seconds (691/1000 seconds), correct?
Rounds up to 7 tenths of a second, which is almost 3/4 of the way to a full second.

Plenty of time for an animal to take a step forward or turn around, so the bullet clear misses or gut shoots the deer.

 

[torqem]

The 20" 308 is not a humane elk gun beyond 400 yds. The ability to reliably expand a big game softpoint (minimum 1800 fps of impact velocioty)and also penetrate adequately on such a large critter just aint present. 165 grs, at 1800 fps, is just 1l00 ft-lbs and to still work ok at 400 yds, it will need to be a boattailed bullet. If your load is a typical 150 gr softpoint semi spitzer, plain based, it's not worth much at 400 yds, actually. Not from a 20" 308. Check out the ballistics charts. Such a bullet, at such a speed, is blown 12" off target at 400 yds, by a mere 10 mph breeze. That having been said, FAR more elk at taken at less than 200 yds than are taken beyond 400 yds. Especially if you don't know enough to wear ear protection while hunting. Which few do.

 

[coyote315]

well, that gets into the whole "know your game" aspect... 3/4 of a second is pretty easy to predict if you've watched a species or even a specific target several times, and are hunting ground you know. In new conditions, it could be an eternity... Ultimately, everything's a judgement call for your own capabilities and situation. I think time of flight should definitely be factored, but making "absolute" rules is also impractical... If buck-of-a-lifetime is,say, feeding contently and I've watched him for the last 10 minutes for the 5th straight day, then yeah I think I can predict 3/4 of a second.

 

[Andrew Leigh]

@Fragout

Use a 165gr Accubond and reduce your exit wound by 75%.

 

[T.R.]

I've enjoyed my successful hunts with my .308 carbine since 1971. This Remington 660 has never let me down under any circumstances. Some examples:

- South Dakota antelope at 347 long paces
- Big bodied mule deer at 275 long paces
- Saskatchewan bull moose at 155 long paces
- Wyoming elk at 225 long paces
- Stacks of common whitetails at typical woods distances

In summary, .308 has the power and flat trajectory to meet all my hunting needs. Its a popular cartridge because of predictable performance.

- 150 grain Sierra Pro Hunter is my favorite bullet for medium game animals.
- 180 grain Remington core-lokt is my favorite for large animals.

Good hunting to you.
TR

 

[coyote315]

"predictable" is the most important part of accuracy. Accuracy is the most important part of this whole "ethical kill" debate.