Improvisation off a latter day carcass?

[Boats]

Since James Kim, the lost C/NET editor, has been all over the news here in Oregon, I have been wondering about the situation he found himself in. There have been fragmentary accounts that the family burned the car's tires to help them keep warm.

I have never been that profoundly stuck and lost, but it is my understanding that most folks who are use their cars as primary shelters. I don't know that with my greater than non-existent outdoor skills whether I'd find that choice attractive at all as a car is mostly metal and glass and difficult to insulate and keep livable all at the same time. Every time someone has to go outside for any reason, all conserved heat is lost because a car door is a big hole for a small shelter.

At some point in a survival situation, the car, like the horse, mule, or dogs of yesteryear, has to be considered entirely expendable--paid off or not. The Kim's Saab 900 reportedly ran out of fuel, depriving it of the ability to pump out engine heat. Most cars don't come with lighters anymore, so that tool doesn't even matter though the battery would hold out longer than the fuel.

Even in a car "out" of fuel, its carcass has to be of some considerable use, right? I would think that the fuel system would still contain a useable amount of recoverable gasoline in the tank, even if the fuel pump couldn't get it. The fuel filter is probably containing some flammable deposits in it. There is antifreeze in it, though someone would have to think of a use for it. The motor oil, transmission fluid, any gear oil, etcetera is flammable under certain conditions and if nothing else, is hydrophobic, as is any grease anywhere it could be found in the wheel bearings or steering gear. The carpet mats, and in a wagon such as a Saab, the cargo mat, is either entirely synthetic rubber or some form of waterproof material under carpet. The alternator and electrical harness have hundreds of feet of usuable wire in them. There is yards of rubbery belts and hoses and lots of scavengable plastic material. Two to six airbags, the list of stuff is enormous, the question is to what uses could that stuff be put if you wanted to stay within easy distance of the car?

What else could be stripped from a car and put to better use in an emergency such as that faced by the Kim's?

I was wondering if he could have fashioned a hat out of the upholstery or carpet and some wire from the engine bay. I was also wondering if he could have fashioned galoshes from the floor/cargo mats or the weatherproofing in the fender wells. Could he have sucessfully used wheel bearing grease as a water barrier on the feet, legs, and face? Maybe he could have burned every flammable bit of that car instead of just the tires to create as black a signal fire as possible?

Thoughts?

 

[Coyote3855]

Not lost, just confused for 10 days....

I'm amazed more people don't die of exposure every winter. First, he might have considered consulting a map so he didn't end up lost and stuck miles from anywhere. Second, stay with the car. Third, he might have included some basic survival supplies in the trunk, say blankets and extra clothes for all and matches and lighter fluid and a knife/ax/saw/shovel and food and water and some large tupperware containers to hold the used food and toilet paper. Fourth, stay with the damn car. The family did and they're home now.

Yes, a vehicle is full of all sorts of useful stuff, including the padding in the seats and the seat covers and the headliner, all of which can be used to insulate the littlies and the Mrs. The only use I can think of for antifreeze would be to poison the dog. Most of the fluids/parts would require tools and exertion to access. Better to have the equivalent in the trunk to start with - wire, paracord, shovel, tire chains, Sorrels, snatch strap, etc.

My work used to take me into the puckerbrush of eastern Colorado in the winter. I had an insulated camper shell on the back of a old 2wd Dodge pickup. My brag was if I got standed for a week, I would be able to give the snowplow driver who rescued me a hot cup of coffee when he showed up.

While I wish Mr. Kim the best, I don't expect him to show up until spring runoff.

 

[cgraham]

Great question!

Answers would partly be predicated on what tools are available, and knowing enough about the vehicle to know where critical things are. You can't get at residual gas if you lack a wrench to remove the tank drain plug or don't know where it is.

The first order of business is to get a fire started next to a shelter site (preferably before dark, and before totally running out of gas). Use the last gas to heat the car only as a last resort: gas has other uses, including keeping the battery charged (light, spark).

It is well recognized that burning engine oil is a good smoke signal (if you are close enough to civilization for it to be seen, or if search parties are likely to be out). Timing of it's use is everything! I don't know what it takes to ignite it - gasoline, probably.

I think it would take a pretty hot fire to ignite tires effectively, but they do make a black pall. If you could get a big bonfire started, adding the wheels would be effective (let the air out - or BANG!

If you can get at some gasoline, a spark from the battery would ignite it. The battery might be used in very dry duff under a dead snag to start a fire - never tried it.

A headlight could be removed from it's mount and used with the battery as a beacon at night. Flash SOS. The horn is an important daylight attractor.

Although the car is a poor insulator, it is an effective windbreak, and is waterproof,so depending on the conditions and other factors, might be the best shelter. Also, the advice to stay with your vehicle, when lost or broken down, does not necessarly mean IN it.

If you can build an adequate lean-to shelter near the vehicle, you can benefit from radiant heat from a fire. Skin the seats, extract airbags, and gain a wind and waterproof cover for the shelter; remove the seats & use them for insulated seating or sleeping.

Sidewall and trunk fabric (if any) would provide additional insulation

If the hood or trunk cover can be removed, they could contribute to a shelter, or be used as a heat reflector behind the fire, or as windbreaks.

I think expendable signaling materials (oil, lights) need to be conserved. They may be wasted until enough time has passed that someone is likely to be searching.

Radiator fluid is lethal, as everyone knows, and once the gas is gone, the ony use I can think of might be to control unwanted fire spread (absent snow).

A floor mat can be used for shoveling snow if a removable panel can't be found (better to use the mat for insulation).

Depending on their construction, wheel covers might be used for melting/warming snow over a fire for consumption.

Any chunks of metal, such as wheels, jack, and when no longer needed, starter, alternator, could be heated by the fire and used as body warmers.

Windshield washer flud contains ethlene glycol or methyl alcohl, both toxic, and so using the reservoir to store thawed water would be unwise, unless one thought one could rinse and dilute out the chemicals sufficiently - I don't advocate it! (I was thinking about a way to carry water if someone decided to hike out).


I never thought about scavenging from a vehicle to assist a walk-out. A seat cover or large floor mat could serve as weather protection. Some wire for keeping improvised garments in place, perhaps.

Take a reflector in case you see a distant light.

A whole different set of considerations come into play if one is stranded in arid conditions. Shade, shelter from dessicating winds, and fabrics to construct stills and other water capture devices become paramount.

I have seen a few of these ideas reported in practice, so these are only thoughts, not recommendations.

C

 

[quatin]

While I wish Mr. Kim the best, I don't expect him to show up until spring runoff.

Apparently they found his body already.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061206/ap_on_re_us/missing_family

 

[ZeSpectre]

If you get lost in this sort of a situation your priorities should generally be...

1) Make sure that where you are is safe from immediate danger (flooding, avalanche, whatever). Then check for any immediate medical issues (Injury, etc).

2) Set up a way to signal for help as soon as possible. If you can get attention quickly none of the rest of this really matters as you'll be headed home. Usually the absolute best method is to arrange for a fire. This can be a signal and will also help with step 3.

3) Shelter. The typical american can go for a couple of WEEKS without food, a couple of days without water but exposure can kill you in minutes.

Although you should probably stick with a stuck car (because it's big and more easily spotted) once the fuel runs out your average car SUCKS for shelter against cold winter conditions. Too much airspace to try and warm up, too much heat loss via metal and glass and opening doors, etc.

Lots of usable parts though if it should come to that.

-Floor mats, seat cushioning, seat material, and carpeting for insulation and blankets in a debris hut.
-Even without a cigarette lighter, a battery can be used to start a fire (with caution).
-Tires can be burned for a smokey signal fire
-Snap off the rear view mirror for a signal mirror
-Beep the car horn intermittantly as a distress call (three long honks, standard distress signal). Hell if you are leaving pull the battery and the horn and take 'em with you <grin>.
-many body parts that could be made into a sled to haul stuff along.

Personally, unless conditions were unsafe to stay put I'd immediately begin making a debris or snow shelter and gathering firewood for a signal fire right away. If you got tired and wet in the process you'd still have the car to warm up in and dry out in (assuming it was running). Once you have the shelter, enjoy the car until it runs out of fuel and then move to the shelter you've built for survival. Leave the car window open so you can get to the horn and headlights right away in case you need them for signaling.

 

[Ivy Mike]

If you had the ability to distill, you could theoretically extract the ethylene glycol from the antifreeze (it is just alcohol folks) and you'd have another fuel source. Technically, you'd have water after distillation although I don't know how keen I would be on drinking that. Other than that, its a poison, so you could get small animals with it. Don't think you'd want to eat them though after that kind of death.

It also surprises me that folks would be so quick to abandon the interior of a car to sleep on the ground under some lean-to shelter. The car isn't vulnerable to wind, rain and snow like a makeshift tent would be. It would be much easier to keep warm in a car rather than outside.

 

[ZeSpectre]

The car isn't vulnerable to wind, rain and snow like a makeshift tent would be.

This is mostly accurate.

It would be much easier to keep warm in a car rather than outside.

Unfortunately this is not accurate and has lead to countless deaths. Although a car will be warmer while you have fuel (to run the heater), Once you run out of fuel you will be far better off out of the car and into some sort of improvised shelter with a fire.

Sadly most people think that inside a car "has" to be warmer than outside even when the car is not running and try to just "tough it out". End result is that they freeze to death when moving outside and making even a small fire might have saved them.

One survival story I heard was sort of the best of both worlds was a family in a van who opened the sliding door and built a fire right outside. The van protected them from the elements and the fire gave off plenty of heat to keep the interior of the van warm. Catskills in Upstate NY I think it was.

 

[Boats]

Postscript: James Kim was found dead shortly after noon PST. God rest his soul.

 

[ilbob]

I don't see how anyone is better served by abandoning a weathertight shelter like a vehicle for the open wilderness, unless one is well prepared for it in skills and equipment.

Even though I rarely go anywhere remote I have a fair amount of stuff in the vehicle with me, just in case. A nice warm wool blanket, fresh underwear and socks, dry footwear, hat, gloves winter coat, and various other things stay in the vehicle year round. Including a plastic snow shovel.

I'd be inclined to bundle up and stay with the vehicle.

 

[Zundfolge]

I think the most important thing is to pack a few "survival goodies" in the trunk of your car ... some blankets (even those mylar ones that look like aluminum foil) and some other supplies.

I'm amazed how many people trek into the wilderness like they're driving to the mall ... not even taking an appropriate coat with them because they don't plan on getting out of the car.

My brag was if I got standed for a week, I would be able to give the snowplow driver who rescued me a hot cup of coffee when he showed up.

With a little planning, there's no reason anyone couldn't do that.

 

[Boats]

One of the things that goes wrong is that instead of staying with the vehicle, people stay in the vehicle, sometimes beyond all sense.

A vehicle is largely suspended metal and glass. Since it is not "grounded" in any meaningful way, it is largely a heat sink in cold weather, easily capable of becoming colder than its surrounding ambient air temp. It is proof against the wind, but it sucks at conserving heat. Additionally, once the engine is dead, there is no way to adequately heat the typical vehicle.

However, a vehicle can be made into an excellent windbreak for backing a debris hut or other expedient shelter, or if some common sense is used, as a heat reflector for a fire.

I agree that the SAR folks, having been one for a time, are going to concentrate efforts on systematically searching roads first, usually from the air, and nothing would be worse than having abandoned something far easier to find than one's self.

That doesn't mean that a car is a very good emergency shelter when one might do far better with something else they can build near to a fire. They'll still find your car, even if you have blistered all of the paint off of one side of it or stuffed the underbody with evergreen boughs and dead leaves to complete its transformation into a windbreak.

 

[Ivy Mike]

ZeSpectre, you can build a fire in the car or outside like you mentioned.

The car is still going to retain warmth longer and keep you sheltered.

 

[mio]

i saw somthing in a reply about maybe using the battery to start a fire in very dry stuff im sure that the battery combined with a screwdriver or any piece of metal you could scavenge would provide enough spark

with a wagon im assuming it had a hatchback i would try to insulate the car as well as i could the the mentioned materials in it and maybe pine limbs over the top (would make it a bit harder to spot you) and build a lean to against the open hatch keeping a fire out there. i think that would heat it and you could have a second fire near the car for a signal fire.

just a thought

 

[feedthehogs]

If there is snow out, you'll stay much warmer in an igloo style shelter than a car.
Snow is a great insulator.

Also running a car stuck in snow can introduce carbon monoxide into the interior even if you use the closed air circulation setting on the heater.

Sad when people die from situations that are easily prevented or survived with a little planning.

 

[MikeG]

Around here they recommend a winter survival kit including blankets and votive candles or tea lights. One or two of these candles in a vehicle can produce a fair amount of heat.

Often there aren't materials nearby to make a shelter, and with the winds and blowing snow we get in blizzards, it would be fatal to be outside getting wet and chilled trying to build one.

Insulating the vehicle with blankets and burning candles is the best we can do sometimes.

 

[Biker]

As I recall, the actuators from airbags can be used for blasting caps and set off a larger payload. I'm not exactly sure what use could be made of this, but there are possibilities.
You have a blasting cap, a battery and lots of wire along with oil and maybe gas.

Biker

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The arguments against using a car as shelter seem to be based on the assumption that the cold is severe enough that you will not be able to maintain your own body heat inside the vehicle. We all seem to agree that the vehicle blocks wind and rain better than any makeshift shelter. It seems to me with some blankets, small candles or some of those chemical body warmers you could do better inside the vehicle (assuming a little planning beforehand). You don't have to warm the entire vehicle, you just have to create an insulated space inside of it you can keep warm. Kind of a shelter within a shelter...

I think I would stick with the car in this scenario. Your only real threats are lack of water and exposure. You can melt snow for water and while exposure is certainly a threat, it isn't a threat that will be improved by trekking cross-country without proper clothing.

First, he might have considered consulting a map so he didn't end up lost and stuck miles from anywhere.

The family did consult a map. That is how they got lost to begin with. They missed a turn off and their map indicated they could reach their original turn off by following a series of convoluted back roads used by kayakers and campers. Apparently the Dept. of Transportation version of the map had a warning that these roads were impassable in winter; but the version they had did not have that warning. Once they got on the backroads they quickly lost track of where they were and got stuck.

MSNBC reported that the rescuers followed a trail of clothes that Kim had discarded as he walked. They were speculating that either he became overheated trying to cross a drainage area and began to discard the clothes or that he began shedding them after hypothermia had addled his brain. MSNBC reported that the rescuers themselves kept having to be pulled off due to hypothermia from falling into the stream and exertion trying to reach Kim's body.

I haven't seen the geography of the region; but I can't imagine why he would be trying to cross a wilderness area and stream down a steep slope instead of walking along the road if he did need to travel.

 

[gyp_c2]

hmm...

Actually they consulted "mapquest" or something similar. They were unfamiliar with the terrain and thought it was the "quickest" way home. It wasn't clear to them that they were taking a scenic route intended for more temperate seasonal conditions. They didn't realize their mistake until the weather turned and a blizzard caught them. It was at the worst time of day and turning dark as they tried to retrace their steps and then stuck the car. Decided to wait for help and hope the weather changed, after days of no food the guy decided to go for help and probably slipped...
...at least that's what I heard...
They actually did pretty well for that amount of time with nothing. An infant and 4yo to worry about, lost, stranded and hungry...tough one...

 

[Jim March]

First question, and I'm not an expert in wilderness survival:

Would it be possible to find a tree more or less on it's own, throw couple pints of engine oil and/or gasoline splashed on the base and turn it into a giant signal flare without (hopefully) starting a whole forest fire? (Which is hard to do in the dead of winter anyways...)

Failing that, a nice smoky oil/tire fire sounds dandy as a signaling system.

Another question: could you pile and pack enough snow down on top of the car to insulate it better? This is OF COURSE assuming that running the motor for heat is no longer an option due to dead engine, no gas, etc.

What you REALLY want is something that will stay somewhat warm from body heat, which is why a small "scratch built" shelter done right would be better than a car.

Thoughts...a battery and a screwdriver is definitely a viable "match". You want a fire both for warmth and for melting snow in some sort of improvised pot for drinking water. Any number of basic engine parts could provide the "pot" once the oil is wiped out...valve cover, hubcap, carefully broken out headlight, tons more.

The seat cover material and carpeting (once cut loose) could be used to form a "people pocket" which then gets covered in snow.

I would guess that you'd be best off using the engine it's heat for a while during the construction of better shelter, and then shutting down the motor BEFORE running out of gas as the gasoline can help as a firestarter ("liquid kindling").

-----------

If I got stuck like that in my motorhome, assuming at least a half-full propane tank and half full gas tank (60gal total) for my generator...heh. I'd be set for...hmmmm...at LEAST a couple of months. With a 1500w electric heater drain my 4,000w generator will pull less than a gallon of gas in eight hours. I could run a single stove burner at least two months on propane. Keep the snow off my solar panels (four, at 165w each) and I'd have lights and plenty of computer juice...might even be able to get a cellphone-type Internet connection although that's iffy in the mountains. I could switch the signal booster for the internet connection over to my cellphone though with some crude wiring...bet I could punch that pretty far.

 

[ilbob]

A vehicle is largely suspended metal and glass. Since it is not "grounded" in any meaningful way, it is largely a heat sink in cold weather, easily capable of becoming colder than its surrounding ambient air temp. It is proof against the wind, but it sucks at conserving heat. Additionally, once the engine is dead, there is no way to adequately heat the typical vehicle.

There is no way the car can ever get colder than the surrounding ambient air. That is basic high school physics. Even if the ground is colder than the air, the tires keep it off the ground, and there is not a lot of heat transfer to the ground through the tires.

A car is a waterproof and windproof shelter. You will never be able to make an expedient shelter that is more wind and water tight. In many cases, wind and snow are more of an enemy than the cold. Staying in the car keeps you out of the snow and wind so you only need to deal with the cold. Generally the seats in a car are pretty well insulated from the metal frame, so get your feet off the cold floor and up onto the seats.

It is true that there is virtually no insulation in the skin of a car, so whatever heat is generated in the car that is not retained next to the skin via clothing is lost. Normal winter clothing is quite adequate at keeping you alive inside a car in the cold.

Do you really think you can conserve heat better in an expedient shelter outside in the wind and snow then inside a wind and snow proof car?

 

[hso]

Winter survival threads are not within our scope.


It's been pointed out to me that this is a real event that could happen to any of us and that Jeff had included these sorts of things as acceptable so I've unclosed, reopened ?, the thread.

 

[Exmasonite]

What about combining 2 of the above ideas:

Use the car as a base and make an igloo....

Pack snow under, around, and over the back end. I'd probably leave the front end (hood) visible for searchers to see (i believe they put something on the hood to increase visibility).

Leave some sort of entrance way to the hatchback or one of the doors...

Wouldn't this be the best of both worlds? Waterproof/windproof with snow for insulation.

(granted, you don't want to waste TOO much energy doing this but still worth it in my book)

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, I would suggest that one question you would want to ask is "Is this vehicle really a carcass yet?"

In this case, the vehicle was just stuck in a snowbank. According to the news reports I've read, the temperature range was 55F-20F. At the higher range, it seems like you would have a decent chance of escaping a snowbank if the vehicle was still mobile.

It seems to me like you would want to put off scavenging parts that were critical to mobility (engine parts, gasoline, oil, tires) until you were left with few other choices or it was clear the car wasn't going anywhere. This might also be a problem with the cargloo suggestion - at what point do you give up on escaping the snowbank and start working to insulate the vehicle with snow?

 

[tellner]

Suddenly my old in-truck emergency kit doesn't seem so paranoid. Especially the folding shovel and kitty litter.

 

[beardxxxd]

My thoughts are this:

Station wagon.
Lay the back seats down and remove all seat covers and padding and use them to insulate the rear windows and then as much of the rear section inside walls as possible

Then use the large floor carpet and/or the insulation thats under the hood as a wall between the back trunk area and the front seats.. Cut a slit in the carpet so you can go through the carpet and enter and exit the car through the front doors..
The slit carpet "room divider" will act as buffer when you have to leave or enter the car.

The car will definately provide against water and wind, and using the above idea i think you will be able to keep the warmth in.

All available food would go to lactating mother and we would all breast feed

The windshield washer fluid canister will be removed and emptied and it would be used for human waste after the sun goes down.. It could be kept in the very front of the car.. giving you no reason to open the car doors once the sun goes down.

Getting the hood removed is very very valuable:
sled / wind buffer for car and fire / shield for sasquatch attacks