Improvisation off a latter day carcass?

[silverlance]

winter survival relevance

i would say that this thread can be quite relevant to gun owners.

a. hunters often take their cars to hunt during winter.

b. a large number of thr members like myself want to go camping in the winter. we also like to take little routes, confident that we will can deal with any BEARS or DRUG GROWERS because we're packing a little heat. then we find ourselves freezing to death.

c. this is relevant even for people who aren't in the "wilderness". what if the SHTF (yes i know, i cringe at that acronym too) in the winter? I always imagine the shtf being a whole apocalyptic, smoky hot world, but the reality will probably be more like Leningrad or Shanghai - heat, food, and water wants can kill you just as well in Los Angeles or in the Sierra Madres.

so, please do keep this thread open.
we can all probably agree that the Kims would have been in just as bad a situation had they been well armed with an AR15, AK47, SKS, 1911, M14, etc...

Perhaps he might have been able to hunt for food, but I would not count on my ability to HUNT for food.

-----

 

[junyo]

As I hear the story, I wonder if some space blankets, water and the stuff to build a smoky fire wouldn't have saved him.

One huge thing is NEVER trust Internet directions in remote/unfamiliar areas. Very rarely have even the big map sites (google/mapquest/yahoo) actually verified the conditions or even the existence of all the routes in their database. They buy it from third parties, and is often of indeterminate age/accuracy. Then they merely import it and apply math to determine road types and distances. They'll correct bad data when they find out about it, but if no one drives the road...

When veering off major highways, if possible take a second and consult the locals. Hopefully they can/will tell you that it's a lonely road that you shouldn't drive in winter or what have you.

 

[carebear]

If you miss your turnoff on the interstate, lose the ten minutes getting to the next exchange (or emergency vehicles only turn around) and go back. On the highway you can make up time like nobody's business, you're already late at that point.

It's hard to believe someone in the Northwest doesn't carry a shovel and blankets and all the normal cold weather clothing/emergency stuff in their car. It ain't rocket science. Even the interstate gets cold at night when your car quits on you at 2 am.

 

[Boats]

There is no way the car can ever get colder than the surrounding ambient air. That is basic high school physics. Even if the ground is colder than the air, the tires keep it off the ground, and there is not a lot of heat transfer to the ground through the tires.

Yes, that is a misstatement on my part. What I meant is that the uninsulated interior surfaces of a car can certainly seem colder when touched, than anything outside. Having overnighted in my front seat once in a freezing rain when I was less experienced, it was terribly uncomfortable to shift and touch the dash, or center console, both of which seemed to be superchilled. I stayed in the car that night because it was drier than anything I could fashion, then or now, on the side of a highway. Today? In the woods, in clear weather or snow like they faced, an environment I know how to exploit rather well, I could do as well or better outside of the car with a fire near.

A car is a waterproof and windproof shelter. You will never be able to make an expedient shelter that is more wind and water tight. In many cases, wind and snow are more of an enemy than the cold. Staying in the car keeps you out of the snow and wind so you only need to deal with the cold. Generally the seats in a car are pretty well insulated from the metal frame, so get your feet off the cold floor and up onto the seats.

With three or four people in a typical family car, that is a tall order for one day, let alone nine. My other problems with a car as shelter are that the engine or a candle are the only reasonable ways to heat it, and opening any of the doors is going to blow out all of the accumulated warmth, a tremendous waste of the fuel or candle it took to warm it in the first place. Those restrictions largely vanish for anyone who can grab all of the branches and pine boughs he could ever want fashion a decent shelter, and then build as much of a roaring a fire as desired. The Kims were sitting in the midst of a nearly inexhaustible supply of fuel for a fire if only they had known what they were doing. Those trees would even have fed them a little bit if they knew how to exploit them.

If you know what you are looking at, here is what you will see in the typical Oregon forest, especially one near a river or other watershed:

Cypress
Douglas fir
Hemlock (easily edible cambium, but it requires prep know how.)
Incense cedar
Juniper
Larch
Pine (Two needles per bundle=Lodgepole. Three needles per bundle=Ponderosa, Jefferey, or Knobcone. Five needles per bundle: Western White, Sugar, Limber, or Whitebark) Know your needles and cones in forested country and it could pay off some day. None of these trees provides pinion level delicacies, but it's not a waste of huge time or energy to gather some cones and get them opened up. All pine nuts are edible. Some are tremendously small compared to ones you may have seen in salads, but stranded, you'll have plenty of time to open many cones if you want them. Lodgepole cambium is also preparable as food.
Red cedar
Spruce
True Cedar
True Fir
White (false) cedar
Yew (cambium makes a healthy tea when boiled.)

It is true that there is virtually no insulation in the skin of a car, so whatever heat is generated in the car that is not retained next to the skin via clothing is lost. Normal winter clothing is quite adequate at keeping you alive inside a car in the cold.

Well, in the true life example given us by the Kims, they didn't have much in the way of what I would consider adequate winter clothing, especially as regards footwear. Why anyone without any form of waterproofed footwear would venture up an unknown snowy road escapes me entirely. Among other things, since I frequent the woods in fall and winter, I carry Sorels, a -20 rated sleeping bag, and a $10.00 Swedish surplus alcohol stove in my Jeep.

Do you really think you can conserve heat better in an expedient shelter outside in the wind and snow then inside a wind and snow proof car?

I think I could do it outright, or be equally comfortable, especially near a good fire. I can't speak for others though as in my rig I am about as reasonably equipped for such a trial as is sane.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, the Kims survived 9 days in that environment using the car as a shelter. This is two adults and two children with only a little bit of car camping experience amongst them. If somebody with minimal experience can survive in that environment using a car as a shelter, then it seems a car is a pretty effective shelter.

 

[torpid]

In fact, the only fatality was the one who left the shelter of the car.

 

[Boats]

When I wrote my original post, the Kims seemed to be in more intense winter conditions than it turned out be. The snow was mottled on the road, but I am sure in spots it was too much for a passenger car without clearance and without chains, to traverse.

Heck, if you Google it, there was a guy recently found alive in chest deep snows near Mt. Adams in Washington who'd been camping out in his Jeep Cherokee for two weeks. He was discovered by searchers on snowmobiles some 30+ miles from any civilization. Vehicles can and are useful as shelters.

It was not my intention to convey that a car is a terrible shelter, only that those who can fashion their own, not those trying it for the first time, could be liberated from the constraints imposed by using the car as the primary shelter and save it for severe weather use, not burn its gasoline off heating it with the engine, and have more options generally than those who have to use the car to live in.

The Kims didn't have the skill set or probable equipment to even try. Most people don't. I do, as do many people I know who are "outdoorsmen" rather than just "sportsmen.".

 

[Glockamolie]

Being from the Houston area (and having rarely left south Texas), I don't have any experience driving in the snow, using tire chains, or carrying a blanket or flares or anything cold-weather related. I know sitting in the car for days on end would get old, and you would wonder if you're going to die right there, but it would go against my natural thought to leave the car. Then again, I don't know exactly what I might do after a few days of sitting half-frozen in a dead car with my wife and 2 young children.

 

[tellner]

Here is a series of aerial photos, most showing relief, of the route James Kim took. De mortui nulli nisi bonum, but he should have stayed put.

 

[walking arsenal]

Thanks HSO for reopening this one.


It's a heck of a lot more interesting than the "What caliber for" or "What gun should i" threads.

I agree that kim should have stayed with the vehicle but at ten days i can see were things start looking iffy.

I also thought that the family burning the tires was a stroke of brilliancy.

I wonder if they told someone were they were going and when theyd be back.

As in, we are going to X lake, if you you dont hear from me by Y time, call the police and start looking for us.

That alone saves a lot of people.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

According to the San Francisco Gate, the Kims made multiple wrong turns and upon noticing signs indicating that the roads were closed in the winter, decided to turn around and head back the way they came.

While attempting to turn around, the car became stuck in the snow. After a long time and a lot of gas, they freed themselves from the snowbank but they were now concerned that they didn't have enough gas to make it off the mountain. So they drove to the fork in the road and stopped and this is where they spent the next nine days.

When the weather cleared on November 29, they started out using magazines and dead wood for fires; but used up all the wood they could get to light. This is when they burned their spare tire. On December 1, they built a large fire with the four remaining tires hoping to signal someone; but it had taken so long for them to be noticed missing that the search had just started and wasn't yet in that area.

 

[rudolf]

IMHO, one should:

- Stay on big roads.
Even if the distance is longer, you will always be faster on a well used road as the cars using the road clear a lot of the snow. You'll also get help quicker.

- Have a sleeping bag for everyone.
The whole discussion of whether the car is warm or cold doesn't matter much if you're inside a sleeping bag.

- Have a CB Radio along.

- When you're stuck turn off the engine and get into the sleeping bag. Don't run the tank empty for heat. Next day, the weather might change and you can drive on. You need the gas to drive.

 

[Navy joe]

So many things to think of here, the how of car shelter has already been beat to death. How about the myriad ways not to end up stranded? Do you have a spare serpentine belt and a tool to change it? How far will your car go without one? Can you make basic repairs? Do you habitually travel with a full gas tank? A tow strap and a cheap chain come-along work wonders for getting you out of that snowbank. A map works wonders for keeping you out of it in the first place. A travel plan communicated to someone outside you party and sticking to the routes discussed in it help too. Many lessons to learn, I feel bad for the guy but respect him. He took his limited knowledge and made a heroic effort to do what he thought he needed to do to save his family. None of us know it all and we do not all suceed. RIP

 

[johnster999]

Wonder if OnStar with GPS could've located them if they'd had it?

 

[Ryder]

He was a good man to give his life for his family. I don't wish to belittle his effort. Sometimes everything a man can do isn't enough and this was one of those times for him. I do not however believe the experts who have said he did everything right. In the interest of helping others I will share some thoughts and my experience with the subject.

-Beep the car horn intermittantly as a distress call

If he had left his wife with instructions to do this once an hour he may still be alive. He'd have known he walked in a circle hearing that. He could possibly have made it back to the car and safety. He died so close to the car. I asked my youngest today if he knew about sounding a distress signal. He didn't. I knew by age twelve that three gunshots repeated was a distress signal. I learned it in Boy Scouts. Now he knows.

I survived "The Blizzard of 78" here in Michigan with a 7 month pregnant wife and a two year old in the car. That was a terrific storm. We haven't had anything to match it since. Only one of 3 or 4 blizzards I recall in my lifetime. This one was such that twenty foot deep ditches were drifted over.

I was stupid enough to get us all stuck in the middle of barren fields on a dirt road with a crosswind. :banghead: Not a house for miles. They were not walking anywhere in that and cell phones weren't even a theory. It was late in the evening. Overnighting in the car occurred to me but I was worried about carbon monoxide poisoning from being drifted in. Leaving them in the car to go for help was repulsive. They would have been scared to death and if I didn't make it there was only enough fuel to last the night.

Bad route choice? You bet but at some point I had to travel that direction. No N/S road was any better than another though I certainly could have picked one with a higher population. Anyhow, I regretted it but it's too late for coulda, woulda, shoulda when you're in it up to your neck. I had to get us out of there!

I kept warm by working while they kept warm in the running car. No shovel but hands dig snow good with gloves. I did it by jacking up the rear of the car, digging as much snow as I could out from under it and in front of it, tossing a spare blanket from the trunk under the rear wheels, lowering the car onto the blanket, and pegging the accellerator until I was stuck in the middle of the next drift where I repeated the procedure over and over and over. It took me an hour to go the first quarter mile. The remaiing 2.75 miles to get to a paved road inline with the wind went better once I got the hang of it. Inline roads were blown clean.

I still have a great visual in my mind of looking down at my wife from above when that one drift put me up on two wheels. I was a stunt driver and didn't even know it.

Luck? Yeah, I was lucky they didn't find our bodies when they plowed those drifts out 3 days later. You all can shelter in place if you want but it is not my first choice. I'll do it if I have to but I'd have to be beaten down into it or extremely distant from civilization. Shouldn't take too long to figure out either way. One day in that kind of weather without proper nutrition would sap energy reserves to nothing and that's just from trying to stay warm. Couldn't imagine starting out after a week of starvation.

 

[Diamondback6]

It strikes me, not claiming expert status or anything, that the prescription here is lots of planning all around:

1. Before departing (anytime of year, but doubly so in winter), always try to plan the route to stick as close to populated areas as possible while still meeting your needs. (I use DeLorme Street Atlas for this, plays very nicely with my laptop and has GPS interface.)

2. Have somebody riding shotgun with a GPS tracking you. (This is usually my job, since I usually pack the 20-pound-Godless-Briefcase-of-Doom laptop and keep it plugged into the cigarette lighter while traveling longhaul).

3. Preparing a survival kit, TO INCLUDE COMMUNICATIONS. Your cellphones will work many places, but not everywhere; perhaps a CB radio would have better reach. Couple this with the GPS and you can give SAR a better idea of where to search.

4. Every few hours on the road, ping a contact at home (friend, family member) via cell and check in. Spare batteries for the cellphones would be a good idea.

5. Give emergency plans a "dry run" every now and then, short of removing vehicle parts. This should be discussed, and some practice on small parts can be done in good weather if you're a good shade-tree mechanic, but it could become an expensive skill to practice.

6. The most important part: Remember that even gigabucks spent on gear will only get you so far, and in the end it will always come down to wits, resourcefulness and prior planning/training/prep.

Just a few thoughts.

 

[thexrayboy]

Too many people have stopped planning for potential problems and simply rely on the pervasive cell phone to save them. Unfortunately in many rural areas a cell phone is just a paperweight. As long as we live on a planet with
real weather people who travel must prepare for problems. If you don't it may
be a sad ending but not a true tragedy. It's simply nature reasserting it's power over us.

There are plenty of resources available on the net to teach people how to
travel in cold winter weather and hot summer weather. If Mr. Kim had availed himself of these resources he may well be alive today. We know he had access to them. Life is dangerous. Modern conveniences are just that. Not
a gurantee of survival. It's sad and I would hope people would learn from this and prepare, however as a species we are merely clever, not intelligent. This same scenario will play out somewhere else some other time.

 

[razorburn]

Looking at the map, he died so close to the black bar lodge. It was just up the road from them, maybe 1 or 2 miles.

 

[ZeSpectre]

The sad thing is that since he was already stripping off clothing he had probably already fallen prey to irrationality from hypothermia. It's a well known phenomena that many who are hypothemic start to believe they are "too warm" and will start removing clothes thus hastening their demise.

 

[hso]

It's a well known phenomena that many who are hypothemic start to believe they are "too warm" and will start removing clothes thus hastening their demise.

Yep. The moment I heard that they had found a pair of pants near his footprints I assumed they would not find him alive because of this.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

If he had left his wife with instructions to do this once an hour he may still be alive. He'd have known he walked in a circle hearing that. He could possibly have made it back to the car and safety. He died so close to the car.

Check out the path that Kim followed. I doubt it would have made much difference since Kim was probably hypothermic the moment he left the road. The ravine he went into was incredibly steep, led back the direction he had just come and had a creek at the bottom of it - not the path you choose in a moment of clear rational though. The fact that they found his pants less than a mile down that path seems to support the fact he was already in a mental state where he wasn't making good decisions when he left the road.

Also, even if he had known where the car was, it would not have helped him as it was almost a sheer cliff between him and the car since he was in the bottom of the gully.

It seems to me that one thing to take from this preparation-wise is not just to have maps; but have good quality up to date maps. The "up-to-date" part is particularly important for those of us who rely on GPS quite a bit. Kim's map (he relied on a screen print off Mapquest from the local chamber of commerce) all but killed him. It led him into that situation to begin with by not making it clear that the road was inaccessible during winter.

The poor detail of the map also encouraged Kim to try and walk out. He erroneously believed that the town of Galice was only four miles away and thought he might reach help there. In reality, it was 15 miles away as the crow flies and a lot longer on the switchbacks of the road. I think that if you had given Kim a high quality Dept. of Transportation map of this area, this whole scenario turns out differently.

Then again, Kim had a long, sequential run of really bad luck. If he had not missed the original turn off, he lives. After that, he misses the Bear Camp turn off through the mountains. If he had not missed that, he would have stayed much closer to towns and population and probably wouldn't have become snowbound to begin with. If he hadn't gotten stuck turning around on the BLM road, he would have had the fuel to make it back. If after getting stuck, they had continued to drive two more miles instead of stopping at the fork, they would have found the hunting lodge. Once he left the vehicle to look for help, he also would have found the hunting lodge if he had just walked the same two miles he did down the road; but in the opposite direction.

So that is six or so things, any one of which going the other way might have resulted in a totally different outcome to this scenario. The really scary part is I can see myself making some of the same decisions Kim made based on the information he had available to him.

 

[Henry Bowman]

Would it be possible to find a tree more or less on it's own, throw couple pints of engine oil and/or gasoline splashed on the base and turn it into a giant signal flare without (hopefully) starting a whole forest fire? (Which is hard to do in the dead of winter anyways...)

Planning and preparation is key, but sometimes we find ourselves in the situation we are in. My comment to my wife when discussing this last night was, if they could burn tires, then I would have tried to start a forest fire. May have been hard in the weather, but they had accellerants (oil and gas, etc.) in the car. Put me in jail later, but my family would be both alive and free.

 

[Boats]

You likely would not be charged criminally for burning a tree or part of the forest in a true emergency. You will have to pay for what you destroy however.

One thing anyone traveling in the woods should never be without is a cutting tool of some kind. It doesn't matter if it is a big high quality knife, hatchet, axe, or saw. The Kims could not successfully exploit literally thousands of pounds of flammable wood because they could not get past the wet exterior of any of the bigger fallen wood, nor could they utilize the fatwood that could be gathered from almost any stumps in the vicinity. This inability to make wood fires led them to burn up their car tires, and their desperation over their fire fuel helped to drive the decision for James Kim to set out.

Then again, you'd have to know the woods a little bit to know what is possible. It was reported on the news last night that Kati Kim feared for his safety on his trek due to the threat posed by bears. Hypothermia/exposure is at the top, if not the top, outdoors killer and they were worried about napping wildlife. Cougars would have been a more rational fear as regards the critters since they don't hibernate nor announce themselves.

The lack of knowledge of the wild also shone through their plan for the rescue hike too. I heard the head of the Oregon State Police say that their plan was, as mentioned, to find the town of Galice, which they thought was only four miles away, not the fifteen it actually was. They had arrived at this plan studying a map that was almost certainly lacking physical terrain features. Therefore, we arrive at a moment of pre-hypothermic madness: According to Oregon’s top cop, their idea for finding Galice was to find the river to find the town.

Most of the Rogue River has nothing one would describe as a bank one could walk upon. It is almost all impassable brush. Anyone who’d ever seen a mostly wild river in mountainous terrain would never have hatched such a greenhorn plan. This plan does explain “rationally” leaving the road to follow a creek that was leading to the Rogue River. It is possible that he was rational when he went into the drainage, and it was the calmly plotted plan that was delusional.

 

[Biker]

A couple of news sources reported that bear tracks were found following Kim's trail and it was speculated that he was aware of the bear which led to him walking in a circle.
Who knows?

Biker

 

[XDKingslayer]

Most of you mention the hundreds of parts inside a car that can help you to survive seem to forget the most important part. The tools to remove them.

If you carry the amount of tools required to strip a vehicle of it's life saving parts then you obviously have the forethought needed to keep you from dying in extreme conditions or not get caught in them to begin with.

But most people don't have basic tools in their cars, let alone a socket set and a screwdriver set. These, unfortunately are the ones that go through life unaware and unprepared and die in these situations. Mr. Kim was one of them.