"IMR Target/Red/Green and Vectan Ba 9.5/Ba 9"

[Blue68f100]

That and WST burns super clean at low pressure (target loads)......

 

[Walkalong]

Yep, good stuff. IMR Target will have to be very good to knock WST off of its perch, for me anyway. And hey, it might. Still wish it was lightly colored like WST though.

 

[muncie21]

I loaded some test rounds with the Ba9.5.
For my 9mm (minor PF) Prima V is a closer match to N320 than Ba9.5

 

[rsrocket1]

bds,
Red Dot and Unique have virtually no nitroglycerin in them as did the old ADI Australian "Clays" powders. Many new powders get "clean burning" by adding NG. The downside is that the powders stick to the insides of some powder measures, discolor others and some combination of double based powders and powder measures even blister the plastic if you leave it too long.

Have you noticed any sticking of flakes (not due to static electricity) with IMR Red or Green?

 

[Walkalong]

Red Dot and Unique have virtually no nitroglycerin in them as did the old ADI Australian "Clays" powders.

As far as Red Dot goes, not according to Alliant when I asked them. 20% isn't "virtually no nitroglycerin" content IMO.

What is the average % for double base powders? Thanks

It varies. Red Dot is 20%, Bullseye and Power Pistol 40%, Blue Dot 15%.
There are several in the 15 to 20% range. American Select is the
lowest, Bullseye and Power Pistol are the highest.

Ben Amonette

Consumer Service Manager
Alliant Powder Company
www.alliantpowder.com

All of the Vihtavuori pistol powders are single base (No nitro content), and they burn extremely cleanly. They burn clean because of the quality of the cellulose base used.

 

[Dudedog]

Sigh,
all this talk about single base powders makes me miss SR7625.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Sigh,
all this talk about single base powders makes me miss SR7625.

I miss all three of the SR powders and hate when a company removes good powders from their lineup. I miss HS-5 and HS-7 too.

 

[LiveLife]

Have you noticed any sticking of flakes (not due to static electricity) with IMR Red or Green?

I haven't tried Red or Green yet but haven't noticed any sticking with Target.

For the next range test, planning to load 115/124 gr bullets with 4.2-4.3 gr of IMR Target but will be comparing different OALs to check for accuracy trends:

- 115 gr FMJ/Hardcore Match RN - 1.130" vs 1.150"

I braved the rain for the second range test with IMR Target and decided to load the longer rounds longer at 1.155" instead of 1.150" (Sorry about wet targets. I used plastic over target papers but it was raining hard sideways). As you can see from the target pictures, shorter 1.130" rounds produced smaller shot group.

25 yard 10 round shot groups with 17" Just Right carbine, Bushnell 6-18x50mm scope and UTG bipod:

Due to pouring rain, no chrono testing.

RMR 115 gr FMJ with 4.2-4.3 gr IMR Target at 1.130" OAL (Left) and 1.155" OAL (Right)

Same 1.130" shot group with different 1.155" shot group

A short break in rain allowed a third range test for IMR Target. Shot groups support shorter 1.130" OAL producing tighter groups with RMR 115 gr FMJ. (Splatters on targets from rain soaked rocky backstop and elongated holes from target cardboard leaning back)

Glock 22/KKM conversion barrel and Caldwell chrono:

- IMR Target 4.2-4.3 gr RMR 115 gr FMJ 1.155" OAL: 1036-1068-974-1044-1015 fps - SD 35
- IMR Target 4.2-4.3 gr RMR 115 gr FMJ 1.130" OAL: 1072-1045-1078-1059-1077 fps - SD 14

25 yard 10 round shot groups with 17" Just Right carbine, Bushnell 6-18x50mm scope and UTG bipod:

IMR Target 4.2-4.3 gr RMR 115 gr FMJ 1.155" (Left) and 1.130" (Right)

 

[Ruger 15151]

bds

Is these groups shot with your 9mm Glock or AR15?

 

[LiveLife]

25 yard groups were shot with 17" Just Right carbine/A2 fixed stock shot with Bushnell Banner Dusk & Dawn 6-18x50mm scope and UTG/Leapers Tactical OP bipod. I replaced the collapsible stock with A2 fixed stock to remove the "wobble" and pistol grip replaced with Exile Machine Hammerhead to comply with California "featureless" requirements.

For chrono data, I used Glock 22 with KKM 40-9 conversion barrel.

 

[rsrocket1]

As far as Red Dot goes, not according to Alliant when I asked them. 20% isn't "virtually no nitroglycerin" content IMO.
.

Yeh, it's purely empirical. From my limited experience, the higher the NG concentration, the more aggressively the powder attacks certain plastics. My LnL AP hopper is one test point, my MEC bottles are another and the bases of my HF powder coated bullets is a 3rd. My Lee PPM hopper is not affected by powders at all. I've heard that RCBS powder measures are very sensitive to certain powders (I'm assuming NG content again).

All of the Vihtavuori pistol powders are single base (No nitro content), and they burn extremely cleanly. They burn clean because of the quality of the cellulose base used

I've also heard that. They must have some very nice cotton lint in Finland. I would love to try some out, but I don't want to pay that much for powder just because it's clean burning. I usually don't shoot a particular gun more than about 2-300 rounds per session and I can go several sessions between cleaning even with Bullseye.

 

[Walkalong]

the higher the NG concentration, the more aggressively the powder attacks certain plastics.

Agreed. They also said American Select was about 5%. A very good and a very clean powder.

 

[LiveLife]

Looking forward to your Ba 9.5 load tests. If nothing else, to reduce my work, as I have plans to work a load ladder up for 9mm, minor PF in the near future.

Taking advantage of 4 days without rain, I started Vectan powder load development with Ba9.5 referencing following load data - https://www.grafs.com/uploads/technical-resource-pdf-file/20.pdf

115 gr RN Vectan Ba 9.5 Start 3.4 gr 1001 fps - Max 4.4 gr 1139 fps

As you can see from the picture above, Vectan Ba9.5 and Ba9 are cut extruded powders like Vihtavuori N320 but cut shorter. From my Pro Auto Disk, following charges dropped consistently:

AD .40 = 3.6 gr
AD .43 = 3.9 gr
AD .46 = 4.1 gr


Following test rounds were loaded for the range test (.378" taper crimp used):

RMR 115 gr FMJ 1.130" OAL: Vectan Ba9.5 - 3.6 gr, 3.9 gr, 4.1 gr (25 yard chrono/group testing)
RMR 115 gr FMJ 1.130" OAL: W231/HP-38 4.8 gr (Reference load)
RMR 115 gr FMJ 1.130" OAL: IMR Target 4.2-4.3 gr (50 yard testing)


Chrono data from Glock 22/KKM conversion barrel and Caldwell chronograph:

RMR 115 gr FMJ Vectan Ba9.5 1.130" OAL (Temp 84F):
3.6 gr: 851-858-835-828-867 fps SD 16 (Did not cycle the slide)
3.9 gr: 909-900-917-928-925 fps SD 11 (Stove pipes)
4.1 gr: 970-956-930-958-950 fps SD 14 (Cycled the slide) Plan to test 4.3-4.4 gr next

RMR 115 gr FMJ W231/HP-38 1.130" OAL (Temp 84F):
4.8 gr: 1102-1059-1069-1042-1074 fps SD 22


25 yard 10 round shot groups with 17" Just Right carbine, Bushnell 6-18x50mm and UTG bipod:

RMR 115 gr FMJ at 1.130" with 4.8 gr W231/HP-38 (Left), 3.9 gr Vectan Ba9.5 (Center) and 4.1 gr Ba9.5 (Right) - FYI, 3.6 gr and 3.9 gr Ba9.5 loads cycled Just Right carbine without issues.

Initial 50 yard 7 round group of RMR 115 gr FMJ and IMR Target 4.2-4.3 gr at 1.130" (Will be doing more 50 yard testing in the future)

 

[LiveLife]

Alliant Red Dot (Left) ------------------ IMR Red (Center) ------------------- Alliant Promo (Right)

Disclaimer: Following post contains loads currently not published by Hodgdon - Use them at your own risk.

As you can see from the comparison picture above, IMR Red is large bulky flake powder like Red Dot/Promo. Promo is my current general purpose powder for 9mm/45ACP pistol/carbine plinking loads that produce more than acceptable level of accuracy with nice case fill at lower cost (Powder Valley $113 / 8 lbs). Due to fluffiness, IMR Red also produced nice case fill 9mm loads. While IMR Target comes in 16 oz containers, IMR Red and IMR Green come in 14 oz containers - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-vectan-ba-9-5-ba-9.817796/#post-10490012

From my Pro Auto Disk, I got the following charges dropped (Powder charge variance of IMR Red is similar to variance I get with Red Dot/Promo):

AD .46 = 3.2 - 3.3 gr (mostly 3.3 gr)
AD .49 = 3.4 - 3.5 gr (mostly 3.5 gr - occasional 3.7 gr)
AD .53 = 3.6 - 3.7 gr (mostly 3.7 gr - occasional 3.9 gr)
AD .57 = 4.0 - 4.1 gr (mostly 4.0 to 4.1 gr - occasional 4.3 gr)

Since there's no published load data for IMR and 9mm (I normally use 3.8-4.0 gr of Promo for 124 gr lead/plated/jacketed bullets), I approached this uncharted territory cautiously and loaded test rounds of following (1.160" OAL/COL was used to not compress 4.0+ gr charges along with .378" taper crimp):

RMR 124 gr Hardcore Match RN 1.160" OAL: 3.2-3.3, 3.4-3.5, 3.6-3.7 and 4.0-4.1 gr


Chrono data from Glock 22/KKM conversion barrel and Caldwell chronograph:

RMR 124 gr Hardcore Match RN 1.160" OAL (Temp 84F):
3.2-3.3 gr: 880-808-734-811-802 fps SD 51 (Did not cycle the slide)
3.4-3.5 gr: 838-840-849-830-770 fps SD 31 (All rounds stove piped)
3.6-3.7 gr: 915-916-895-914-889 fps SD 12 (Cycled the slide)
4.0-4.1 gr: 1000-935-923-917-1022 fps SD 48 (Cycled the slide)


25 yard 10 round shot groups with 17" Just Right carbine, Bushnell 6-18x50mm and UTG bipod:

RMR 124 gr Hardcore Match RN at 1.160" with 3.2-3.3 gr (Far left), 3.4-3.5 gr (Mid left), 3.6-3.7 gr (Mid right) and 4.0-4.1 gr (Far right)

So if you want to load IMR Red for 9mm, you can reference my data instead of going at it blind. I am not sure why Hodgdon did not publish 9mm load data for IMR Red as there are load data for 45ACP. Based on my initial testing, I will be repeating accuracy testing of IMR Red at 3.6-3.7 gr and 4.0-4.1 gr with 124 gr Hardcore Match RN bullets and again with RMR in-house 124 gr FMJ once they become available since RMR in-house 115 gr FMJ produced smaller shot groups than 115 gr Hardcore Match RN.

 

[muncie21]

Thanks for sharing your info/experience LM.

Quick question, what drove you to experiment with the IMR Red? Was it solely because PV is currently OOS or some other reason(s)?

 

[LiveLife]

Powder Valley is showing IMR Red in stock for 14 oz, 4 lbs and 8 lbs - https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/

BTW, bds is my THR name (it stands for my dogs Blaze/Daisy/Steffi). Linux Mint is the Open Source operating system I use for my computers.

Promo is my current general purpose powder for 9mm/45ACP pistol/carbine plinking loads that produce more than acceptable level of accuracy with nice case fill at lower cost (Powder Valley $113 / 8 lbs).

With very good results with IMR Target, I had high hopes for IMR Red but was disappointed when Hodgdon did not publish load data for 9mm and wanted to see how it did. I will also be testing IMR Green even though there is no published load data for 9mm.

 

[muncie21]

Haha, I should have been more observant, with regard to your screen name.

 

[LiveLife]

You can call me LM if you like - Just don't call me late for dinner.

 

[LiveLife]

Disclaimer: Following post contains loads currently not published by Hodgdon - Use them at your own risk.

Continuing "unpublished" IMR Red load development from post #39 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ectan-ba-9-5-ba-9.817796/page-2#post-10520702

Next larger Auto Disk .61 cavity dropped 4.2 to 4.4 gr with most drops at 4.2 to 4.3 and occasional 4.5 gr. (previous AD weights shown for reference).

AD .46 = 3.2 - 3.3 gr (mostly 3.3 gr)
AD .49 = 3.4 - 3.5 gr (mostly 3.5 gr - occasional 3.7 gr)
AD .53 = 3.6 - 3.7 gr (mostly 3.7 gr - occasional 3.9 gr)
AD .57 = 4.0 - 4.1 gr (mostly 4.0 to 4.1 gr - occasional 4.3 gr)
AD .61 = 4.2 - 4.4 gr (mostly 4.2 to 4.3 gr - occasional 4.5 gr)

Since powder work up showed accuracy trend with 3.6-3.7 and 4.0-4.1 gr loads at 1.160", I decided to test 4.0-4.1 gr load at shorter 1.145" and 4.2-4.4 gr load at 1.160". At 4.0-4.1 gr at 1.145", powder compression became a growing concern and 4.2-4.4 gr load was loaded at 1.160".


Chrono data from Glock 22/KKM conversion barrel and Caldwell chronograph (data from previous range test added for reference):

RMR 124 gr Hardcore Match RN 1.160" OAL (Temp 84F):
3.2-3.3 gr: 880-808-734-811-802 fps SD 51 (Did not cycle the slide)
3.4-3.5 gr: 838-840-849-830-770 fps SD 31 (All rounds stove piped)
3.6-3.7 gr: 915-916-895-914-889 fps SD 12 (Cycled the slide)
4.0-4.1 gr: 1000-935-923-917-1022 fps SD 48 (Cycled the slide)

4.0-4.1 gr: 1044-986-988-998-1018 fps SD 24 (Temp 78F, 1.145" OAL)
4.2-4.4 gr: 1085-1044-1027-1095-1110 fps SD 35 (Temp 78F, 1.160" OAL)


25 yard 10 round shot groups with 17" Just Right carbine, Bushnell 6-18x50mm and UTG bipod:

RMR 124 gr Hardcore Match RN with IMR Red 4.0-4.1 gr at 1.145" (Left) and 4.2-4.4 gr at 1.160" (Right) - (4.2-4.4 gr group has two shots in same holes at bottom left of group)

If Hodgdon was trying to duplicate Alliant Red Dot, I would say they did a good job with IMR Red as I like 3.8-4.0 gr of Red Dot/Promo for 124 gr bullets. I am liking 3.6-4.1 gr of IMR Red loaded to my preferred OAL of 1.145" for 124 gr RN bullets and will do more 25/50 yard testing.

 

[LiveLife]

Disclaimer: Following post contains loads currently not published by Hodgdon - Use them at your own risk.

Rain returned but was drizzling light and I used plastic sheet protectors as target covers.

RMR 124 gr Hardcore Match RN with 4.0-4.1 gr of IMR Red was repeated at 1.145" but 3.6-3.7 gr was tested shorter at 1.140" and 1.130" without compressing the powder charges.


25 yard 10 round shot groups with 17" Just Right carbine, Bushnell 6-18x50mm and UTG bipod:

RMR 124 gr HCM with 4.0-4.1 gr Red at 1.145" (Left), 3.6-3.7 gr at 1.140" (Center) and 3.6-3.7 gr at 1.130" (Right)

It's forecasted to rain/shower the next several days so I will load up some more IMR Target/Red/Ba9.5 rounds to test at 50 yards while I start with IMR Green and Ba9 load development. I will load up some W231/HP-38 and Promo rounds as reference.

 

[Toprudder]

I'm still a little surprised Hodgdon put out these new handgun powders under the IMR label. When they moved the older handgun/shotgun powders over to the Hodgdon label they said it was to bring IMR back to a real rifle powder company. It now seems it was really to make room for the new handgun power line. It does make sense.

My thoughts exactly. They did away with SR7625 and SR4756, and the only reason I heard was that they were too similar to existing Hodgdon powders and were more expensive to import. And then they release these new powders, that are too similar to their competitors powders. LOL

 

[Walkalong]

I finally got around to loading some .357 with the X-Treme 158 Gr SWC and IMR Target. (One of the things I like to try with any new suitable powder to check position sensitivity (And accuracy while I do it of course.) I use 3.8 grs WST with this bullet at 1.560/1.565 OAL. Hodgdon's online data for .38 Spl showed a max of 3.8 with target and a 158 gr XTP @ 1.455 OAL. I loaded 24 rounds at 3.8 Grs. (Weights varied from 3.68 to 3.82 Grs on my Gem Pro 250) Yea, I know, I didn't work up, but I was loaded longer, and in .357 cases.

It shot well in my 686, but not great, in this application. (I shot the XDm after this and shot great groups, so it wasn't me this time (Red dot sights on both guns). It shot clean, and scorched the cases just a little around the case mouths, more than the WST load, but not bad. It is a bulky powder, but not quite as bulky as WST. Close though. Hard to see the dark powder deep down in the .357 case in the press.

I shot 6 rounds each powder back, powder forward, and powder level at a black dot on cardboard. (Forgot the targets *Sigh*)

4" 686 - 75 degrees 31 % relative humidity.

PB Avg - 722 FPS
PF Avg - 692 FPS
PL Avg - 702 FPS

The PB FPS were very close to 3.8 Grs WST with this bullet from my 586, with the PF & PL numbers being a little better. The PF & PL numbers are very good, especially if it repeats its self. This looks like one of the better options as far as position sensitivity in applications with a lot of air space in the case. It should be tried in .45 Colt for sure.

It won't replace WST for me in this application, but it is worth trying in other applications. I wonder if this newer "green" formulation has anything to do with the good numbers with the powder away from the primer?

 

[LiveLife]

I finally got around to loading some .357 with the X-Treme 158 Gr SWC and IMR Target.

One of the things I like to try with any new suitable powder to check position sensitivity ... I wonder if this newer "green" formulation has anything to do with the good numbers with the powder away from the primer?

For my semi auto testing in pistols and carbines, unless they are max case fill loads like with WST, Red Dot/Promo and Herco, they are always powder forward when the chambered rounds slam powder charge forward.

Since you brought up powder position, now I may have to do a thread on case fill accuracy. So using shorter OAL on some loads producing greater accuracy may not necessarily be from greater neck tension but higher case powder fill ... more reloading variables ... well, time for more testing.