In an better system... What do we need?

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HeavenlySword

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On the nuked Full Auto thread, it is clear many of us agree current restrictions are extremely onerous.

But should there be a limit?

Here is a conversation between me and the one-man-army, JoeFromTN:

Originally Posted by JoefromTN
Good thing you didn't post that on the open forum! You would be accused of being a closet "anti" and living on that "slippery slope"!

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavenlySword
Although the Founders believed the 2nd Amendment is absolute;

Restricting nuclear arms and biological agents seems prudent. It would be nice to restrict chemical arms as well, but there is alot more chemical lab-grade equipment than biological or nuclear equipment, and is not as feasible as the other 2.

No, I doubt it, lets try this.

I proposed we follow something similar the Swiss system, where all you need is a psych exam, and you can own AA, howitzer, Artillery, Jet Aircraft, grenade machine guns, cruise missiles, modern tanks, flame throwers.
 
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As you've seen, these always draw a couple of folks who are inclined to assume superior intelligence and call each other names. How is this thread going to differ?

Answering these might be a good pre-requisite, and help us figure out where to start:

Why do you think the Founders intended the Second Amendment to be absolute?

The Supreme Court of the United States decides how the law is applied in accordance with the Constitution of the United States. How do you explain the Supreme Court screwing up so completely in regard to the Bill of Rights? Some of the smartest Americans to have ever lived comprised the Court. They should know more about original intent than any of us, correct?
 
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In his final post, Joe said he was converted. Hopefully, that will dampen the flaming.

I'm looking for serious discussion, please read all the posts before posting, even if its a few pages by the time you read this.
 
This topic has been covered by at least two polls I've seen in the past year. One poll had about 10 steps, from "no guns" stepping all the way up to "nukes". I recall most people voting for one step above what is generally legal today. That would be "full auto".
 
It might be too late to add a poll in this thread (?). If you start a new thread, I suggest looking for that old thread first. I'll do a quick search to see if I can find it.
 
When 54% of the nations voters gleefully vote for a gun grabing socialist for president, there ain't a chance in hell we can get a fair deal on gun ownership. Least of all full autos.

Rest assured that there are many Americans armed with all the weapons you have described and haven't used them on other Americans, so far. Plus if you can trust someone like Barack Husein Obama with thousands of nukes you can sure as hell trust me with a full auto.

jj
 
In the other topic, I was the first one, and I said, it will never happen.

This is not an current world analysis, this is just an analysis of what system would be ideal.
 
The system for owning full autos wasn't broken and worked very well other than they took way to long to give you your papers. Why did they stop building full autos for the public when the system they had worked so good??

jj
 
On a related note, are there any laws that restrict nuclear arms? Obviously, at the very least a nuke would be a DD, but are there any other laws?
 
EDIT:

To clarify things, most credible sources, and I, interpret the Founders intentions as the right to bear all military arms. Army can has tanks, so can citizens. Want a Tomahawk? Got 1.2 million to burn? Here ya go

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Politics, Jim. Politics.

And the system was flawed. Something requiring registration of your ability to resist, your ability to project your will, is a danger to freedom.

To the Bucket: No, there might be a law against building weapons of mass destruction, but the real deterrents in forms of laws other than CIA, SWAT, Homeland Security, and 'black helicopters' coming in once they find out you have high-speed gas centrifuges and or fuel breeding equipment.

Then you'll be charged with conspiracy to commit mass murder, build weapons of mass destruction, treason, conspiracy against the state, possession of hazardous materials, etc etc.

Honestly, no matter what the founders intended, I believe it is a good thing people aren't walking around with nukes. Unlike a nut with a gun, you can't stop him until its too late, and when he pulls the trigger, its not just 10 or 100 people dying, it can be dozens of millions.
 
Rest assured that there are many Americans armed with all the weapons you have described and haven't used them on other Americans, so far. Plus if you can trust someone like Barack Husein Obama with thousands of nukes you can sure as hell trust me with a full auto.

Here in Kansas they just past a law last year that you can own a full auto.
But you have to have the county sheriff OK first.... :rolleyes:

They did it so LEO could get them from a dealer easyer. They were having transportation problems.
Included in the bill was silencers and sawed off shot guns.
All legal IF you get the sheriff to OK it....:)

Todd
 
Their still ridiculously expensive, and old.

And they have to be registered. If theres a machine gun ban, don't bother hiding it in your vaults.

And citizens of states like NY, NJ, and CA can't own them.

meanwhile, in Switzerland.... Shung with his mere $4-5000 cost collection of real, USGI M4 carbines, which would cost one of us nearly $100,000 K or more to build. Thus, FA is not only older weapons, not only can be taken away anytime, is impossible to get unless you are at least upper middle class.
 
Restricting nuclear arms and biological agents seems prudent. It would be nice to restrict chemical arms as well, but there is alot more chemical lab-grade equipment than biological or nuclear equipment, and is not as feasible as the other 2.

Nuclear, Chemical and biological weapons should not be restricted; They should be a death sentence for anyone who possess them, governments included. No person or group of people should have control of anything that can indiscriminately kill millions of innocent people by deliberate or accidental action.

The price we pay for RKBA is that sometimes innocent people die at the hands of criminals. But we're talking isolated incidents involving one to maybe a couple dozen people at most. Nukes, Chem and bio agents raise the stakes far too high, and it has been proven over and over again that human beings cannot responsibly weild such power.

Further, the purpose of RKBA is checks and balances in it's most primal form. Once again, when we elevate those checks and balances to the potential death tolls of WMD's, the deterrence argument goes right out the window. Our Ohio class subs with their Titan missiles have enough armament to destroy the entire planet several times over. We keep them to "deter" our enemies from using their really nasty stuff. But what good will it be once the earth is scorched? "We warned you, you'll listen next time"??? There is no next time. Furthermore, what if total destruction of the planet is what the opposition wants? Just as it is virtually impossible to stop the suicidal terrorists, how do you deter an enemy who wants to be destroyed along with everyone and everything else?

So yes, as much of a gun nut as I am, I truly do wish we could disinvent nuclear, chemical and biological weapons.


As for any and all other weapons, I believe in 2A in it's purest form. Civilians should be able to possess any and all weapons that the government can. Let's face it; The spirit of RKBA died early in the tweniteth century, when the government restricted civilians to small arms while it's weapon inventory continued to grow at an exponential rate. A couple hundred thousand armed citizens would be but a thorn in the side of our government if the powers that be went genocidal. AR-15's and .50 cal rifles up against M1A1 MBT's, F18's and precision guided missiles and bombs? What a joke we are today. The government needs to have a healthy dose of fear of it's electorate, and that can only happen if we are equally armed.

Now, do I believe in unfettered access? No. I believe that once you move up into artillery and explosives, it should be a "shall issue" policy once an individual has shown that they can properly handle and store such weapons. As I said in another thread, a ricochet with a 155mm training round is in a little different league than a ricochet with a .30-06, and so there is substantially more responsibility in using such a weapon due to the much increased potential for collateral/unintentional damage/casualties. Same goes for explosives; The inherent danger of mishahandling of explosives means that one needs to be qualified to do so. I really wouldn't want my half-wit neighbor storing 200 pounds of cemtex and a case of hand grenades in his garage right next to a can full of oily rags that sits just below his ashtray on the workbench. The qualifications for handling and storage of such weapons would not be arbitrary and open to interpretation by some obscure branch of government. It would be that the individual know exactly what the destructive capabilities of the weapons are, and the proper measures to avoid any accidents. The severity of punishment for violating safety proceedures would be directly proportionate to the destructive power of the weapon. Stiff and actively enforced penalties would make most people think twice about whether or not they can handle the responsibility; While we want our populace to be properly armed to defend against a tyrannical government, we don't want people possessing massively powerful weapons without any knowledge of those weapons and their capabilities.

As for the arguement of criminals getting their hands on these weapons, I also stick to the true RKBA mentality that says if a person has proven that they cannot be trusted with weapons, then they have also proven that they cannot be trusted to roam free in society where they will inevitably acquire said weapons.

In summary, I want a level playing field, but one in which the field will still exist when the playing is over.




YMMV.
 
The problem with that is, if any other government 'forgets' a few thousand nukes while in the disarmament, they can hold the nukes to everyone else's head.

Then we would be in the 4th Reich.

Same with bio and chem weapons, to a lesser degree.

Disinvent? Nuclear technology has the potential to unchain humanity, biological technology has already increased our quality of life and lifespans, without chemical technology the plastics you are typing on would not exist!

Never look back and regret. Advancement is the only way we can survive.

And you are forgetting- WMDs can be stopped, if we advance boldy, missile interceptors to stop ICBMs, and nuclear missiles of other variety. In extreme cases where terrorists are trying to bring them in by boat or truck, you can mine the land & waters, set up automated AA systems, and remote checkpoints in critical junctions, with automatic defenses

While this could be fairly expensive, the automation and low maintenance pays for itself, and will severely reduce illegal immigration
 
The Second is not about sports, hunting or other recreational activities. It is all about armed resistance and down right insurrection.

It's about enabling individual citizens to defend themselves against a deranged individual that breaks into your home for nefarious purposes, it's about enabling a Nation to fight against organizations/armies/governments that seek to unlawfully deprive a People of the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

"What do we need?"...

well, observe and learn from what is being done in current war zones. There are plenty of examples in the Middle East. How do guerrilla forces take on a larger, superior enemy?

To be effective in that role today, I believe the Citizenry at large should own assorted small arms of all kinds, plenty of high explosive material(for IEDs), small crew served weapons such as mortars, and most importantly light, shoulder fired antiaircraft and antiarmor weapons(stingers, AT-4s, RPGs, etc.). Any more than that would be impractical as tanks and aircraft depend heavily on elaborate logistical support.

So yes, as much of a gun nut as I am, I truly do wish we could disinvent nuclear, chemical and biological weapons.

Amen.
 
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It is my natural inclination to agree with Blakenzy. I am a firm believer that any effective resistance has to have at least the ability to penetrate APC's, and it seems like some anti aircraft would be nice.

But in a recent discussion, a friend brought up a point. This is not my belief but I didn't have an immediate rebuttal. He pointed out that most criminals obtain their guns on the black market, meaning that they are stolen one would assume. With the abolition of the NFA style restrictions on getting these weapons, more people would have them, therefore they would appear on the street eventually. I don't know if I agree with him, but it was enough to make me wonder, should we stop before rpg's, at-4's and mortars?

The closest we could get on a compromise was an automatic exemption on restriction for any weapon that a law enforcement department would use.
This seems to put us somewhere in the middle. Opens up quite a few more options for us but stops before the ability to knock down buildings.

Thoughts and opinions appreciated.
 
The fact remains that of the 290,000 registered full autos only two have been used in crimes by their registered owner. One was a cop and the other a doctor.

The system worked well for weeding out the criminal users of legally owned guns yet the socialist in this world just can't allow good people to own things that socialist think are bad.

The proof that the system works can be seen by how many years it went on with no problems. If more full autos ment more crime with them then why for so many years and so many weapons was there no crime by the legal owners??

Further if you add all the weapons that Americans in the military have and haven't used in crimes it should be obviouse that Americans are much better than the socialist think of them.

Control the criminals, that is the key.

jj
 
Restricting nuclear arms and biological agents seems prudent. It would be nice to restrict chemical arms as well, but there is alot more chemical lab-grade equipment than biological or nuclear equipment, and is not as feasible as the other 2.

Well, keep in mind the word "arms" that the Founding Fathers used and apply a reasonable definition, using the English language.

It is almost impossible to argue that machine guns, even cannon, DON'T fall under the definition of 'arms'.

Nukes, cluster bombs, etc, move into the ammunition, not as much the delivery mechanism.

I once flew an AD4 Skyraider in airshows. This aircraft was certified for Nuclear Bomb delivery. Was it an "arm"? Probably so, but it had no warhead.
Should I have been restricted from owning and flying this aircraft since it "could" deliver a nuclear bomb? Of course not.

40mm grenades for example; their ownership is allowed but depending on the PAYLOAD the ammo may or may not be restricted. The launchers are available all over the place. Again, this meets the understanding and language of "arms".

When you move into nukes and biological agents you stray further from the definition of "arms" as we would think the Founding Fathers understood that word.
They intended the average citizen to be able to own weapons that would be carried to battle, on the soldiers person.

That clearly covers machineguns, but it's hard to argue Bunker Buster bombs being "man portable", even in a vehicle owned by the average citizen.
The Founders would have been OK with carrying muskets in a horse drawn carriage or towing a cannon behind a mule, and so they would have been OK with a Minigun mounted in a Dodge Pickup; same basic thing.

Whether full auto should be restricted, or whether Nuclear warheads should be restricted, are 2 different things when you use the word "arms" as your control point.

This is, again, the typical ANTI response to try to lump Nukes into the "arms" discussion to try to argue for "reasonable" restrictions.
 
Well, keep in mind the word "arms" that the Founding Fathers used and apply a reasonable definition, using the English language.

It is almost impossible to argue that machine guns, even cannon, DON'T fall under the definition of 'arms'.

IIRC the 18th century definition of 'arms' was the weapons common to the average soldier. Cannon fell under the heading of ordinance. As for machine guns, back in the 19th century the Gatlin gun was considered ordinance and the planners defined it as a cannon that fired it's grape shot one ball at a time. That leads me to believe the heavy machine guns such as the M-60 or the older M-2's would not have been considered 'arms' by the Founders. 'Assault weapons', such as the M-16 or M-14 since have been issue weapons for the common soldier would fall under the protection of arms.

Ask yourself, had a squad of men armed with M-16's, M-14's or even Garands appeared at the battle of New York would Washington the General told them the weapons were inappropriate?

Selena
 
IIRC the 18th century definition of 'arms' was the weapons common to the average soldier. Cannon fell under the heading of ordinance

Nope.

The use of privately owned cannon is well documented during the Revolutionary War. Privately owned cannon would have been clearly allowed under the Founders understanding of "arms".

Why would they seek to limit an item that was critical to the winning of the conflict with England?

Use of the word "ordnance" in some old language:

The Board of Ordnance was a British government body responsible for the supply of armaments and munitions to the British Army and Royal Navy.

The Office of Ordnance, created by Henry VIII in 1544, became the Board of Ordnance in 1597. There was no standing army, and its principal duties were to supply guns, ammunition, stores and equipment]/b] to the King's Navy. The Great Master of Ordnance ranked immediately below the Lord High Admiral. In 1683 the Board became a Civil Department of State, under a Master General.


So if their job was to be responsible for "arms and munitions" how can Ordnance NOT include arms?

Doesn't pass the smell test, or the history test. Try again.
 
Tx Rifleman, Just bc private citizens owned cannon does not make it arms. Once I get back from sx I'll see if I can get a dict. cite. But I'm pretty sure Officers wife is correct.

Though, M60s/SAWs would prob be considered arms, while 50s/ miniguns ordnance.
 
Though, M60s/SAWs would prob be considered arms, while 50s/ miniguns ordnance.

Well, since we are supposed to be using the definitions of "arms" as the Founding Fathers would have interpreted it, whether TODAY'S definition would include miniguns doesn't really matter. The First Amendment doesn't mention the Internet, does that mean that Internet and Television are not covered by the First Amendment?

It's the concept that is important.

Tx Rifleman, Just bc private citizens owned cannon does not make it arms.

I just quoted a very old usage of the word "Ordnance" which includes all arms in use by a military, including what we would today call "small arms" and what we would today call "ordnance". That use of the word "arms" and "ordnance" would be the usage understood by the Founding Fathers.

This is the standard anti argument, nitpicking over what "arms" include based on what we say TODAY, rather than the INTENT of the founding fathers.

Go read the Heller decision and several of the briefs filed on that. The same argument was tried by the anti's in those and it didn't work, still doesn't.
 
Precisely. Remember, this is just a discussion on what an more ideal system would be.

I do believe we should be allowed to own jet aircraft AND cluster bombs too.

However, do you guys agree that 2nd Amendment meant everyone is allowed all arms? And ammunition, for if they let you keep your AR15s, and ban .223 and 5.56, your tool becomes a chunk of plastic and metal.
 
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