In Vietnam war when ARMY or Marines when out on Patrol

[rcmodel]

Vern, thanks for that reply.

I wasn't there, and I know you was.
But as an NCO, that would be the load I would expect to see in late 1960's army I was in, unless a major fight was in the cards and known beforehand.

I know a LBE with that mag load, a weapon, a steel pot, two canteens, a couple or four M-60 belts for the gun, and perhaps a couple of 81 morter rounds for the tube was all I cared to hump stateside in 115 degree weather if I could help it.

Might as well die in a firefight from running out of ammo as die from dehydration and heat stroke before the fight gets to it, maybe.

rc

 

[CmdrSlander]

F4 Phantom lls primarily. plain jane .38

Cool, I believe I have one of those in the collection.

 

[Gordon]

"The .45 was held in universal low esteem for it's excessive daily maintenance, lack of accuracy and lack of dependablility. "
Not in the 101st did we feel that! The gun was coveted by most grunts as only senior NCOs, Corpsmen, and officers were issued them! Alot of issued (to trac guys) and non issued Grease guns around too and for a while I tried one of those but yes it like the SG is of limited use out side of ambush and jungle creeping! In paddies (the South Corp zones mostly) you want a rifle and the 16 was about perfect if you couldn't get an M-14!
The only confirmed kill I had was with my 1911 when a sapper tried to over run the TOC during a motar barrage. He was being shot at by the few that weren't hiding in the bunkers with their eyes closed, (a Nam joke!) but he ran by my bunker that was 1 door from TOC and got three 230 grain ball loads + a finisher. He was unable to grab the ring on the string which would have set off his vest thanks to the old undependable 1911!

 

[Coop45]

Marine rifle platoon 67/68

Everyone 200 rds 556
1 60mm mortar round
hand grenades
smoke grenades
c-4

Fire team
100 rds M-60 rds
LAW
Claymore

Blooker man
50 rds 40mm ammo instead of 556

Radiomen
same as everyone ammo/mortar rd/grenades/smoke
PRC25
extra battery
whip antenna

Attached weapons
M-60's, 3.5 Rockets

M-60 gunner
gun 100 rds

a gunner
m-16 200
200 rd M-60 ammo

3.5 tubeman
tube
45

Humper
M16 200 rds
4 rds 3.5 rockets

 

[rcmodel]

"The .45 was held in universal low esteem for it's excessive daily maintenance, lack of accuracy and lack of dependablility. "

Maybe by the other army.
Certainly not the U.S. Army one I was in.

rc

 

[Coop45]

After the ammo runs out there are just k-bars and entrenching tools to kill the enemy and take his weapons..

My preference was 400 rd in magazines and 600 rds all carried in bandoleers.

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

Thanks to all the veterans here, great information.


WELCOME HOME!

 

[jaysouth]

I have a high opinion of the 1911s in various calibers that I own today, but in 1966, the WWII vintage .45s we had in our unit were just flat worn out from daily disassembly and cleaning. The finish was worn off and rusted after more than a few minutes in a wet holster. They were in a wet leather holster for 23 1/2 hours daily. The other half hour was spend rubbing off the nightly accumulation of rust. they did not protect you against the things that were killing and maiming your mates. They did not deter or offer any protection against land mines, mortar rounds or machine guns.

By 1967, the 1911s that we brought over in 1965 were totally shot. They were not dependable. Nor had there been a documented killing of an enemy soldier by one. In fact we had wounded and killed more GIs with NDs than casualties inflicted on the enemy. The division CG decided that the 1911 was to be retired at the company level. More pressing items were needed for our missions. Not a single grunt, NCO or officer objected.

 

[CmdrSlander]

@jaysouth

I can see how even a gun as fine as the M1911 could have problems in those conditions. As an aside, it is interesting that the USMC still uses pre WWII vintage M1911 frames for MEU(SOC) pistols, some have over 500,000 rounds to their credit. The oldest M1911 still in service(?) (last spotted in Iraq a few years ago) was produced in 1923, the stories it could tell .

 

[trex1310]

If memory serves me correctly we generally waited on our
platoon sergeant to tell us how much ammo to carry. Of course
you could always carry more, which most did. The actual
number of magazines (20 round) varied from anywhere from 5
to 20 (7 mags in pouches per bandolier). Personal magazines
were loaded from loose ammo in cans during down time.

Squad ammo was on bandoliers and carried in cans. The guys on
shotgun carried about 50 rounds. The M-60 guy usually had an
assistant gunner and 2 ammo carriers. Keep in mind that all of
these things were subject to change depending on situation,
terrain, casualties. The M-60 guy was usually one of the first
to get hit. Grunts (rifleman in the Army) did not carry handguns.
I should clarify, Army issued handguns. I think, for a normal op in
Indian country, we carried about 80 - 90 pounds of rifle, ammo,
claymore mine w/clacker+50' wire, trip flares, 3-5 frag grenades,
1 smoke grenade, entrenching tool, bayonet, sleeping bag, poncho,
C-ration cans (2-3 days worth), 4-5 canteens of water, helmet,
helmet liner, extra socks, extra T-shirt, extra shorts, machete,
cigarettes, lighter, condoms and whatever else you didn't mind
humping thru some of the worst country on the planet.

I'm sure I left out some things it's been 40+ years and my memory
has deterioated along with the rest of me. A sniper's bullet in the
foot ended my career as a rifleman. At least it wasn't in my head.

 

[Gordon]

Well it DOES say on patrol, not perimeter guard duty nor ambush duty so for thatthe guys I saw all had two 7 mag bandoliers with 20s loaded down to 19 each and what ever more in the outer pockets of the ALICE pack. At least 2 grenades most likely 4 plus a smoke grenade and a couple parachute flares for illumination.
On perimeter or most Ambushes I wanted something like this:


with at least 15 or more mags loaded 19 each (dig those 30s I bought a bunch of in the 80s to defend my perimeter)

But like I said when I went out on cross border or ho chi minh trail inserts for super secret seismic intrusion radio spikes or land line taps guarded by these LRRPS:


I only carried one of these:

And the ever present 8" Randal #1 knife,
with a total of 5 fully loaded mags , some c-4 peel and stick deta sheets on my pack and a couple of grenades , I also had a small classified VHF radio tuneable to various frequencies and an extra battery for it. Of course there was the Radio man , this was different !
I carried an Ithaca Shotgun (that was NOT issue as it said LAPD on it !) on the second tour and was issued an m-16 which stayed in the AVN company I stayed at in Phu Bai when not out and around.

 

[MutinousDoug]

As I recall:
Two bandoliers with 7 magazines each across the shoulders. Two magazine pouches on the (utility) pistol belt each with 3 magazines and one in the M-16. Each magazine carried 18 rounds. Two frags, two smoke grenades, two star flares and two trip flares. I carried 3 two qt canteens, a 5 qt canteen and a single one qt canteen for 3 gallons of water. That was usually enough for a three day log. I carried the PRC-25 radio and spare battery so I didn't carry claymores or the mortar rounds the rest of the platoon carried when we carried the 81 mm tube. One guy carried the tube, another carried the bipod, another carried the baseplate and a fourth carried the plotting board, sights and aiming stakes. Everyone else in the platoon carried 2 mortar rounds in addition to the basic load. When we operated in triple canopy, the platoon carried two M-60's instead of the tube and everybody carried spare linked 7.62 either in cans or over our shoulders. I don't remember us carrying LAWs but there were 6-8 in the other platoons. Someone in the mortar platoon carried a pump shotgun with #3 buck that we'd occasionally take out on patrol, and I think we had a .45ACP but nobody thought much of it.
A 500 yd march after taking log made for a long hump. In a squad patrol, where we could leave our junk behind with the company, we could cover more ground.
Anyway: "C" 5/7th Cav 1970 FTW

 

[Coop45]

Even our Corpsmen carried and M-16.

 

[AK_Maine_iac]

1969-70 Thanks to the draft. I am surprised we are still alive after being made to eat all those white M&M's (salt Tabs) I t seamed like a hand full before each meal. If you got to eat. Some of the old C-rats where good. The green eggs & Ham
As many mags for the M14 that i could carry or drag. Never issued a 1911a1. Picked a lot of things up off the ground at times.

 

[flyskater]

I heard the guy from call of duty carries like 10 guns, some rocket launcher, and several thousand rounds of ammo and rockets. Even my 1 ton pickup cant carry that much.

 

[will11]

Well in 1967 I learned to carry a couple of bands of mags plus one in the rifle. But what I really learned was the water thing was huge. I can go without eating but the water thing was something else. Having plenty of ammo is fine but as far as weight is concerned and it is a big concern water is of the utmost importance. Ether having it or being able to sterialize it. God Bless America. Will

 

[jaysouth]

quote: "I can see how even a gun as fine as the M1911 could have problems in those conditions. As an aside, it is interesting that the USMC still uses pre WWII vintage M1911 frames for MEU(SOC) pistols, some have over 500,000 rounds to their credit. The oldest M1911 still in service(?) (last spotted in Iraq a few years ago) was produced in 1923, the stories it could tell".

Number one: "stories it could tell", remember that no small arms were returned to the US that saw action in Europe or the Pacific, unless they were stolen by a GI. The small arms that went to the Pacific were mostly dumped at sea. The remaining ones were those carried by occupation troops. Those wound up in Korea and are still there or else destroyed. Those going to ETO were warehoused after VE day and doled out to allied armies and police. Most were eventually destroyed. All the small arms we took to VN are still there in warehouses carefully tended by our former enemies. '

If someone hands you a 1911 and says "it stormed the beaches at XXXXXXXXXXXXXX." You are looking at a stolen gun or hearing a "sea story".

Number two: The .45s had been field stripped and cleaned every day for over two years, carried in a wet holster every day, and were rack grade issues when issued. What the marines are reputed to carry are stripped at the arsenal level of maintenance and rebuilt and refinished.

Number three: We suffered more friendly fire casualties from .45s than we inflicted on the enemy. A responsible adult looked at the totality of the situation and made a decision that was very popular with the folks who had boots in the jungle.

 

[lemaymiami]

I was never a combat trooper (and it was freak out time when I found I'd been assigned to the 101st in January of 1971...). The war was beginning to wind down then, but you still got shot at every now and then - even in rear areas where I was. The standard bandolier for the 16 then was cloth and held ten standard mags. The guys I saw gearing up to go back into the bush were humping incredible amounts of gear.... Add ammo and it didn't look like anything I'd volunteer for (remember, only one in seven over there were actual fighters - everyone else was support). Can't tell you how glad I was when that big bird took me out of there at the end of a short tour. Where I was there were serious racial problems (and fraggings and shootings to go along with it) and terrible amounts of open drug use (china white, 97% pure, straight from Uncle Ho's victory garden...). I was actually in one of the first groups that were required to take a urinalysis under armed guard to be able to leave Vietnam (they were trying to I.D. folks with habits to clean them up before allowing them to come home....). That's not something you're ever likely to forget. My Dad, a career Army officer, did two tours there. I'm not sure he believed me when I told him how badly things were going where I was...

 

[Hangingrock]

It’s not my intent to argumentative but I was issued a 1911A1. I can’t say old it was or how used it was but then the Marine Corps of that period never tended to throw out anything.

The weapon functioned and no individual that I know of in our outfit shoot themselves with one. My job wasn’t a shooter unless it was absolutely necessary but rather a team member putting artillery fire on target.

Did I use the 1911A1 yes but no one was in the mood for taking pictures for documentation purposes. It wasn’t like deer hunting back home.

 

[bikerdoc]

Gordon said,

Not in the 101st did we feel that! The gun was coveted by most grunts as only senior NCOs, Corpsmen, and officers were issued them!

I agree.

I think our paths may have crossed.

Today, 09:26 AM #68
lemaymiami

Your right

I went in in 66 with the intent to do 20. Got out in 70 as the lack of leadership, discipline, and low morale, and the inpending RIF, made the 1970 army a shell of what it was in 66.

Even our Corpsmen carried and M-16.

That was the schizophrenic part of being a medic, upon contact I was just another rifleman, old adage - return fire, supress fire, gain fire superioity, all while trying to take care of my guys. Even more schizo was patching up an NVA prisoner I may have shot for the S2 boys.
And thanks to the dust off pilot who came in and got my guys out. They had steel gonads.

 

[lowerunit411]

CmdrSlander, theres something wrong with your little F4 there. First of all there are no parts hanging off of it or attached by loose wires, and theres a funny name on the side of it? ahh thats ok...they get their pay from the Dept of the Navy so its all good!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Vern, thanks for that reply.

I wasn't there, and I know you was.
But as an NCO, that would be the load I would expect to see in late 1960's army I was in, unless a major fight was in the cards and known beforehand.

I know a LBE with that mag load, a weapon, a steel pot, two canteens, a couple or four M-60 belts for the gun, and perhaps a couple of 81 morter rounds for the tube was all I cared to hump stateside in 115 degree weather if I could help it.

Might as well die in a firefight from running out of ammo as die from dehydration and heat stroke before the fight gets to it, maybe.

Now you're getting into my comments to the boys at Benning when the M249 was inthe works:

"So this new weapon is more powerful than the M16?"

"No, it uses the same cartridge."

"But it's more accurate?"

"Well, we're having a bit of a problem with that."

"But it's more reliable?

"Welllll . . . that's a problem too, but we'll work it out."

"But it's lighter, so you can carry more ammo?"

"Actually, it's heavier."

"Congratualtions! You've solved the problem of having too much ammo left when the fight is over."

 

[Curator]

III Corps area 1966-1967 Big Red One: My squad of 12 : 200 rounds of 5.56 each (10 magazines of 20 rounds) Everyone carried at least one additional 100 round belt of 7.62 for the M-60 crew. "Assistant gunner" on the M60 usually had 2 or 3 belts. My two M79 grenadiers carried 50, 50mm grenades (25 each in 2 pouches) plus 5 magazines (35 rounds) of .45ACP (2-2 magazine pouches and one in the handgun) Most also carried 4 "frag" grenades and one purple smoke grenade. Ambush patrols also carried an additional 6 ot 8 M18 claymore mines.

 

[gmh1013]

I wonder if the Iraq or Afghanistan guys today carry as much today as back then?
Members of both war we are forever in your debt for all the sacrifices you made.

 

[Coop45]

Gordon said,



I agree.

I think our paths may have crossed.

Today, 09:26 AM #68
lemaymiami

Your right

I went in in 66 with the intent to do 20. Got out in 70 as the lack of leadership, discipline, and low morale, and the inpending RIF, made the 1970 army a shell of what it was in 66.



That was the schizophrenic part of being a medic, upon contact I was just another rifleman, old adage - return fire, supress fire, gain fire superioity, all while trying to take care of my guys. Even more schizo was patching up an NVA prisoner I may have shot for the S2 boys.
And thanks to the dust off pilot who came in and got my guys out. They had steel gonads.

The really crazy thing was when Marines were eating dirt the Corpsman was up tending to the fallen. RIP HM/2 George Riordan 3/14/1968