Incident in the ER

[PastorAaron]

Last night was an interesting one. My mother gave me a call at about 7pm asking for a ride to the ER. She has been ill for many years, and runs a great risk anytime she gets a flu bug or infection (we are still waiting on this one), so my wife and I blitzed her over to the hospital.
We arrived without incident, but in my rush I forgot the hospital is a no fly zone for ccw. It's "concealed" carry for a reason...so no harm no foul. A few hours after our check in at the triage station things started to heat up. I heard a nurse in the room next to ours start yelling "security, call security! He's throwing blood and fluids at me!"
The whole ER went into lock down in an instant. Apparently the man in the next room over was a narcotics seeker who got caught. He responded by attacking the nurses on staff in the hall. Our nurse came and drew the curtain closed, but I was more than prepared to protect my family. it was reassuring to know he would not make it into our room.
This is why I carry.

 

[Shadow 7D]

OK, but if you did use your firearm to defend yourself you would be up the creek still

I'd personally grab an IV pole, they make NICE heavy clubs.

 

[conw]

OK, but if you did use your firearm to defend yourself you would be up the creek still

He should perhaps be less gun-centric but (your mileage may vary, and I am not a lawyer) it would not be unreasonable to use lethal force on someone who used lethal force on a hospitalized family member. If you were afraid for that family member's life, you would be in a position to consider lethal force. If that family member is hospitalized, there is a chance that an out of control person running around could threaten her in that way.

Aaron did you change your position, move, or do anything other than just think comforting thoughts about how you were carrying a gun? Sorry to sound flippant but I am trying to get the full story...and a lot of times people don't do more than that. Or if they do, they don't write it up in their AAR.

 

[gfpd707]

Violence in the ER is fairly common. It is almost always handled by onsite security and rarely involves law enforcement. The people are very well practiced in handling irrate, emotional, and strung out individuals.

 

[lemaymiami]

During my career I worked one or two nights a month at the E.R. of a large hospital in my city as an off-duty job. We were always in uniform, linked into the radio net and mostly it was just another boring long hours proposition for extra money. Every now and then both sides of a fight got to the hospital at the same time (or buddies of someone with gunshot wounds, themselves active shooters...) would show up and things would get interesting...

The one incident I wasn't there for was something out of a movie. One of the patients in the E.R. had a GSW (bullet wound) and was in bad shape. There were no disturbances or anything at all to indicate addtional trouble... One of the male nurses made a trip to the men's room next to the waiting area where, as usual, there were 20 or 30 people waiting for their turn with a doc or just waiting for family... As he entered the men's room he walked in on a guy with his pants leg pulled up that was busy un-taping a snub nosed revolver from his leg. The male nurse freaked out, started shouting and ran back out of the area, calling for security. When the off-duty officer that night showed up they checked the men's room and found only a handgun on the floor - the bad guy had fled. Things quieted down after that but a few days later a ballistics test confirmed that this gun was the same one used to shoot the patient in the E.R. Seems the guy with the gun was intending to finish the job...

I was not so comfortable at the old E.R. job after that....

 

[Quoheleth]

PastorAaron,

While confessing one's sins is a wonderful thing, confessing a crime so on a public forum is probably not the best thing.

Confession belongs in the sanctuary, the confessional or the pastor's office, not a forum.

Absolve te...

Pastor Quoheleth

 

[TenDriver]

Depending on the location he may not have broken any laws. In Alabama the worst that could happen is being asked to leave. Not following that request would constitute a crime however.

I'm not advocating ignoring a "no weapons" sign. However in the case of a hospital often times you don't have the option of going to a business that more weapon friendly, and if you're carrying when an emergency hits you may not have an alternative.

 

[Ranger30-06]

I have close family that's a nurse, and from the stories she tells me, I'm convinced ER's are more dangerous than the ghetto block of the city. You have family that can't control emotions, patients that think they know how to take care of themselves better than the doctors, and the druggies that the hospitals are required to take care of. It's a freaky place...

 

[Fred Fuller]

As a general rule THR gives short shrift to posts (and posters) advocating illegal acts. Confessing something that might or might not be technically illegal however is more of a gray area.

Usually if a member posts something that might prove to be self incriminating, staff will disappear the post and PM the poster as to why their post went away. In this case it seemed to me that there was enough uncertainty as to the actual legal status of the act to make its legal status unclear, and I decided to let it stand as posted.

This does not mean THR endorses violating local, state or federal concealed carry laws. It means that from time to time people will either forget something, or will be ignorant of something, or might even elect to ignore something that could cause some degree of legal entanglement if discovered. Sometimes posts about that kind of thing will appear here on the board, for whatever reason. While the staff might not be able to read every post the instant it appears, members can help by reporting posts they think cross the line. The little red triangle at the lower left of every visible post is the "Report This Post" button... if you think it's justified, use it.

 

[Loosedhorse]

First of all, prayers for your mom.

but I was more than prepared to protect my family.

Just curious: if a fire had broken out in the ER, would your first instinct have been to shoot the fire?

The ER went into "lockdown"? You couldn't leave (with mom of course)? That is a real security problem: forcing you to be exposed to a threat as opposed to leaving.

I'd personally grab an IV pole, they make NICE heavy clubs.

An IV pole, used as a bludgeon, legally constitutes lethal force. Clumsy lethal force. Better to use a gun if you're going to use lethal force.

However, this "lethal threat" could have been dealt with by the simple expedient of donning PPE (personal protective equipment): gloves, gown, mask/eyeshield; and a water-proof drape for your mom. Think any of that might be available in an ER?



The steps for us are escape, force, lethal force in that order, as necessary. As for the ER personnel, they should have reacted with RACER: rescue patients (make sure they are OUT of the danger area), alarm, contain the threat, extinguish the threat (it's a fire emergency mnemonic), and relocate patients.

To the extent they did not follow those priorities and left patients at risk, you should make a formal complaint.

found only a handgun on the floor - the bad guy had fled.

My roommate many years ago was working an ER shift a few beds over from a GSW victim when the doors flew open, armed guys walked in, put more bullets in the GSW patient, and left. No one molested their entrance or exit. Very well known emergency room.

 

[Ryanxia]

Definitely check you local laws if entering somewhere that has a no firearms policy is breaking any laws. In many states you are NOT breaking any laws by carrying (aside from federal buildings of course).

That being said better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 IMO.

 

[PastorAaron]

I'll try to respond in order lol
Conwict: I did. I changed my position in the room so I was facing the entrance and began mental preparation to neutralize, whether that was a firearm, a knife, or a good old beating was yet to be determined. My issue with using any hand to hand was the threat of a man throwing blood and fluids...

Quoheleth: I know, but I kinda figured that it was pertinent to the story. Looking for signs was about the last thing on my mind at that point. Thanks for the concern.

Mr Fuller: thanks for the heads up. I was not intending to brag about a bad situation, simply to recount something that came up in my everyday life. I will try and keep your advice in mind for future posts.

LoosedHorse: No? Unless the fire was a burning crack head sprinting through the hospital....The ER staff closed all of the curtains and sliding doors to all of the rooms. My mother was in no position to walk out or even get to a wheelchair. In a fire, I would have taken the bed out. In this situation, entering the hall would have been taking her through the incident. Same goes for hunting for PPE that was not located in the small room we were sitting in.
I may be reading your post in the wrong voice, but I feel like I'm picking up some attitude...you cool?


My mother has an infection that is causing her liver to go near failure. That combined with a rare vascular disease and other health issues could be very bad. Thank you for all of the prayers.

 

[scaatylobo]

Thanks

I read the OP's entrance and I am of the opinion that YES,it is better to be tried by twelve.

If that is not considered nice here,then I plead to not being nice !.

I dont 'play' so if there is a game on then I 'play' to win.

Life is short and I plan on dying from old age.

I was LEO and stopped a 'crew' from finishing a GSW that was admitted to the hospital I was a uniformed off duty at.

It came close to a gun fight in the hallway and I was outnumbered and got no backup available.

It did work out as they fled when I confronted them and it was VERY close.

CCW is just that and no one should know that you do.

 

[TenDriver]

The real important part: All the best to your mom on a speedy recovery!

 

[Loosedhorse]

I'm picking up some attitude...you cool?

I DO have attitude. Toward the ER staff if you felt unsafe.

Toward you? Well, your post did not give details. It left me reasonably to wonder if you had considered shooting this person before exhausting all other options; and if you well understood what kind of legal hurt you'd be in for shooting an ER patient. Jurors and DAs might tend to assume that in such a setting (as opposed to a dark lonely alley) there were LOTS of other options, making your burden tougher, riskier, and more expensive.

How exactly will you explain that by shooting him point blank (with blood-splatter now all over your face, and aerisolized into a fine mist you breathed in) you were protecting yourself from blood-borne illness? If you had shot him from farther away, how are you going to argue immediate, unavoidable threat? Hospital personnel (he said cynically) would have all sorts of motivation to view and describe your actions as criminal--it greatly reduces their liability!

Not to mention the innocents that might be in your line of fire, or beyond. In my experience, ERs are fairly crowded. And fairly crowded with PPE, even in little rooms.

But I wasn't there: you were. If that's attitude, well, your call.

 

[PastorAaron]

I meant no disrespect, I'm just terribly tired. Apparently there was an issue with a sex offender at the church last night while I was gone. What a season...
This was not in a crowded ER waiting room. It was past triage and reception on a Monday night.
I was prepared to take action. I'm glad that I didn't have to. In my mind, protecting my immune compromised mother was high on the priority list. Looking for PPE never even crossed my mind. It wasn't even a blip on my radar...I also didn't rummage through the cabinet in the room
I've always tried to live by the adage that "a wise man receives correction"
Proverbs 12:1, 12:15. Thank you for the additional options and warnings. The idea of legal rammifications sort of floats away when the stress of a gravely ill family member compounds with this sort of incident.
Honestly, I'm just glad that my brain didn't flush completely.

 

[JustinJ]

I read the OP's entrance and I am of the opinion that YES,it is better to be tried by twelve.

In the over all plan of self defense one should certainly consider the fact that violating the law one time may potentially result in the loss of the ability to legally carry at all. Risking your ability to defend yourself for the rest of your life seems hardly worth the miniscule chance of needing a gun to survive an ER rampage. Most ER rooms have security, possibly onsite LE and other procedures in place to protect patients as well. In the worst case scenario you do actual time and will be in a place without a gun where you need it the most.

 

[Loosedhorse]

I meant no disrespect

None taken. As you said, I'm just trying to offer alternative things to think about. Not corrections.

And again, my prayers. Sorry about the trouble at your church. We know there will be comfort, but some days the wait seems so very long.

 

[Odd Job]

That was a difficult situation you were in.
I haven't worked in an American hospital but I have spent time in a busy ER or "casualty" department as they call it in South Africa. Some bad stuff happens there.
Whether you are a staff member or not, whether you are permitted to carry in the ER or not, it is reasonable to expect a strong dose of scrutiny even if a single shot is fired and hits nobody.
You have to expect that most of the staff members will be antis, they will not be on your side unless they see the subject physically bashing you so that you cannot get away and cannot fight him off.

If the subject bursts into your cubicle and you pop him there and nobody sees it except you and your mom, there will be doubt on your actions and sympathy for the shot patient because after all he is not responsible for his actions. He is at the hospital because he is unwell.

If you miss him, there'll be all sorts of hand-wringing about how that bullet "missed nurse Cindy by just a hair" and how it was fortunate an oxygen bottle or X-ray tube wasn't hit.

They'll say you shouldn't have done anything, they had this covered and so on.

But clearly you MUST do something if the guy comes into the cubicle or looks like he is about to come in. You don't want him touching you or your mother. It's very easy to be an armchair general on this one, very difficult to advise having not been there at the time. You have your back to the wall, you have a loved one who is not mobile and cannot leave, you are cornered. You don't know your surroundings, you probably won't realise that some of the stuff around you can be useful.
You could hold the cubicle curtain taut against the cubicle walls and hope that stops him coming in. If not, maybe a wrap and drag with the curtain, at least get him away from the cubicle...but that may not be possible.

Sometimes there just isn't a good way out of something. Don't feel bad about it.

 

[larry_minn]

I was in hospital when a gang banger GSW was 4 rooms down. Seems the gent who shot him was told he had to finish him off to get into gang. (thankfully he had already dumped the gun so he had to use knife) Well I hear the yelling and am dragging myself out of my bed into my chair. I got to hall and "Tony" my nurse already had things under control...
He asked me what I was thinking. Hardly able to transfer with help and trying to charge into a fight.... I said "I heard Ann (cute 5'2" nurse that weighed maybe 96lbs) scream"

I don't carry a gun in hospitals (as a rule) but always a knife. Even if metal detectors. Seldom are they on every door. The area hospitals I know which doors are not.

 

[flyskater]

violence in the ER is very common. I used to work as a triage nurse at a county hospital in Houston where we receive anyone for anything. If they become violent to someone or themselves we call security, put them in restraints, straight jacket etc. Sometimes I am the only guy there and one time I had to put someone in a choke hold because he tried to hit the staff. It's comforting to know BJJ in those situations. Yeah it's very common. Friday and Saturday nights is when it's worse.

 

[BSA1]

Pastor Aaron,

If you had shot the other patient you probably would be in the deepest do-do in your life.

First you knowly violated a posted policy of no firearms.

Second you are not a medical professional you are not in a position to determine if he opposed a actual risk.

Third the Doctors and nurses are trained to do everything they can to save lives and treat the sick. They will NOT be your friend in court.

Fourth this type of patient behavior is common in E.R.'s. By your own admission they had a established protocal which they followed; called security and isolated the patient. So now you get to explain your actions in a court of law why you knew more than professionals who deal with this type of problem regularly.

That flushing sound is your life going down the toilet.

 

[jeepnik]

Interestingly, I spend most of Monday night in the ER. It wasn't a city or county facility, so no cops on duty.

They did have "security". The fellow on duty couldn't chase an 80 year old in a wheel chair and catch them. And he was probably twenty something. If his attire was any indication, no one ever taught him how to dress in clean clothes, or tuck in a shirt. But his shirt did have "SECURITY" in big letters on the back.

Now, since I was there for what was sorta serious, I didn't think carrying a gun on my person was a good idea. But, "Ramboina" (the guys at the gun club's nickname for my wife) had her laser sighted .38, I wasn't too worried. We actually joked that if anything happened, she could make sure Mr. Security wasn't injured.

I suppose the hospitals lawyers figured the lawsuits from the survivors of some sort of incident would sue for less than those of an injured bystander. Interesting to muse that while in an ER for treatment, the hospital would rather see you dead than be sued. Sorta puts the whole "first do no harm" thing in a new light.

 

[PastorAaron]

Pastor Aaron,

If you had shot the other patient you probably would be in the deepest do-do in your life.

First you knowly violated a posted policy of no firearms.

Second you are not a medical professional you are not in a position to determine if he opposed a actual risk.

Third the Doctors and nurses are trained to do everything they can to save lives and treat the sick. They will NOT be your friend in court.

Fourth this type of patient behavior is common in E.R.'s. By your own admission they had a established protocal which they followed; called security and isolated the patient. So now you get to explain your actions in a court of law why you knew more than professionals who deal with this type of problem regularly.

That flushing sound is your life going down the toilet.

And it smells distinctly low road.

 

[va1911]

I would define someone throwing blood and fluids as lethal force, no question.