Independent Pistol Trials

[iron horse]

In the U.S. military the primary sidearm issued was the 1911 45 for decades through major and minor wars until the Beretta 92 became the military trials ( highly controversial ) “winner” and most issued U.S. military sidearm (Sig 226 was co winner but lost out in part due to price supposedly). Several other military trials stalled out before completing any trials. Within special U.S. military operations besides the Beretta 92, we find the Sig P226, P228 and P229 highly utilized. Several versions of the 1911, HK 45, Glock and Ruger also represented. It also appears that some versions of S&W and High Powers had limited use at one time. World wide, versions of the 1911, High Powers, and CZs dominate military service.

In U.S. federal service we see heavy use of the Sigs, with the elite U.S. Secret Service currently using the Sig P229 357sig as well as U.S. Customs. The FBI currently utilize the Glock 22s and 23s with 27s (as well as Sig P220, 1911 versions, S&W 645 etc.). The U.S. Border Patrol are/was issued the Beretta 96s or Glocks with U.S. Home Land Security utilizing Sigs and HKs.

It appears that the Glock 22 and other variations are the most issued pistol in U.S. state and local law enforcement. Sigs, Berettas, HKs and new S&Ws are also heavily issued with Ruger, 3rd gen S&Ws and 1911s still in use.

As we all know, gun selection (and caliber) is based upon a particular entities application or use, criteria, standard issued and or special use and or approved list, legal concerns, trends, fads, politics of the day and of that office, current entity administrators and their management style, budget and time restraints, personal preferences and low bid contracting requirements.

Therefore, I was wondering if anyone knows of any comprehensive pistol trials conducted by independent firearm sources? Hard copy or internet magazine range reports or personal experience reports with a specific pistol is great to read, but what about comprehensive independent “trials” of all the major (and minor) pistol designs and brands in production or discontinued?

FYI, a thread concerning pistol performance comments by firearm instructors, range masters, armorers, gunsmiths and gun rental proprietors would be a great read. Thanks.

 

[Blue68f100]

In the U.S. military the primary sidearm issued was the 1911 45 for decades through major and minor wars until the Beretta 92 became the military trials ( highly controversial ) “winner” and most issued U.S. military sidearm (Sig 226 was co winner but lost out in part due to price supposedly).

Sig lost due to the fact they did not have full US manufacturing capability. Parts were imported and assembled here at that time.

 

[waidmann]

Iron Horse, you will never see a test that captures enough samples, puts them to enough use and field exposure to matter. And, on top of that is comparative.

I am independent, ex-military, old enough and I suppose experienced. The one thing in common to all these organizations is they decide based on their criteria what you carry.

Based on the number of years service, number of countries adopting, robust design, caliber and capacity I have decided that you should carry the Browning Hi-Power P-35 in 9mm Parabellum.

Congratulations, I am certain you will not regret my decision.

 

[iron horse]

Yes Sir, I will reactivate my High Power immediately. Thank you Sir. ...wow that was easy, no reading, analyzing, debating, just follow orders.

I thought by now, some private gun club or firearms organization would have pulled random samples from all the major designs/brands and put them in ransom rests and fired them into destruction (with or without cleaning intervals) noting malfuctions and accuracy, etc. That alone would provide an interesting read.

 

[RON in PA]

You essentially want to know what is the "best" handgun out there. While many agencies have performed tests very little or no data has been released. What is available is a lot of personal opinion that is less than objective. So the answer to your question is basically no or none.

The fact is that there are many pistols out there that are robust and reliable and have been employed by the military and police for many years.

Based on their use one can't go wrong with guns like the S&W model 10, 1911, P35 HP, Beretta 92 and Glocks. I personally like S&W M&Ps, but that's my opinion.

My best advice is to go shoot as many handguns from major manufacturers as you can and get the one you enjoy shooting the most.

 

[iron horse]

Thanks Ron for taking the time to comment. I have used/owned/own/carried more than several of the major brands and designs except for the recent crop of post Glock poly guns. My personal semi auto preferences tend to be specific models of Colt, Sig Sauer, Beretta and S&W.

I just found it odd that I could not find even a single independent source of pistol trials results, since reliability, accuracy and durability of firearms are critical to the selection and use of them. I think it would be a great read and reference materal.

But, I don't need any trials data to know that I will be getting the 50GI sooner or later

 

[ugaarguy]

Sig lost due to the fact they did not have full US manufacturing capability. Parts were imported and assembled here at that time.

I believe it had much to do with keeping missile bases in Italy as well.

 

[iron horse]

Only source I can find so far

http://www.gun-tests.com

Looks like you have to pay to access detailed data. Did not see any bikini babes firing machine guns on the site, so I did not pay

 

[iron horse]

Although, not in a controlled setting and based on the honor system, I found some info on a 2000 Round Challenge that has been floating around other forums. I found one thread that has tested more than a few pistols.
Interesting read.

See link http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9-2-000-Round-Challenge

 

[iron horse]

Found some great info in this forums Competition Shooting section.

It appears that some of the members have been organizing, hosting and participating in some 1,000 round challenges for more than the past several years (can not find results for pre 2007 matches). The challenges started out as 1911 vs Glock matches. The main goal was to determine which pistols could fire 1000 rounds without malfunction. It appears that in recent years the matches allowed other types of pistols as well. Their threads provide some great real world info about pistol reliability. The threads are good reads.

In 2007 they held a 1911 vs Glock 1,000 round match. It included several brands of 1911s and more than several Glocks. Only two (2) pistols were able to fire 1,000 or more rounds without malfunctions of any kind. Those pistols were a Colt Steel 1991A1 Government Model and a Glock 26. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=310567&highlight=1000+round+match

In 2008, the match allowed other pistols to participate. The only pistols to fire 1,000 rounds without malfunctions of any kind were a Colt NRM Commander, Glock 26 and a Sig Sauer 239 SAS. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4446774#post4446774

In 2009 very few pistols participated, and the only pistol to fire 1,000 rounds without malfunctions of any kind was a Glock 17 (NOTE: No Colt 1911 participated in the match and the shooter of the Glock 17 that "won" also shot the Colt NRM Commander that "won" in 2008). http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=452381&highlight=1000+round+match

In the 2007 match, most of the malfunctions occurred early in the match with most of the Glocks experiencing their malfunctions within the first 10 rounds???? Colts were not represented nearly as well as the Glocks. It appears that in all the competitions for all the pistols, most of the malfunctions were caused by thumbs, web of hand/grip, ammo or magazines.

 

[Big Mike]

I think Consumer Reports should get into firearms testing.

 

[waidmann]

I haven't seen a copy in years but there used to be a Gun Tests magazine. They would go out and buy off-the-shelf and test. They had no ad revenue, so problem there. But again, the sampling was so small.

I am glad you took the humorous side of my Hi-Power comment. There was also a serious side to it as well. I associate my comments with those of Ron in PA., less the 92/M-9 (never cared for it). S&W revolvers were dear to me as well.

I wish you well in your quest.

 

[iron horse]

Exactly, a Consumer Reports for guns would be great reference material.

Yes, this site can provide some very humorous posts and is also very informative. I will continue to try to find pistol trial type info and post in this thread. Thanks.

I wish the 1,000 round challenges would have grown over time, but it appears that they have actually decreased...maybe due to the state of the economy.

 

[Owen]

This sort of testing is extremely expensive. First, testing a single model of a single gun is relatively meaningless; a sample size of 1. So you're taling about having to test multiples of each model. Second, if you want to talk about things liek service life, you're going to need at least 20k rounds per samples. So for a meaningful test of, say a Glock 17, you're going to need at leat 10 glock 17s, from different periods of the production run. ($5k), and a minimum of 200,000 rounds of ammo. If you stick with cheap ball ammo, that's about $40k. If you start looking into high performance defensive ammo, you're looking about about $2million.

So. that's why you don't see detailed trials information. Outside of the military, few orgs have the money to really run meaningful testing, and the military hasn't run a full and open competition for handguns since the 80s...

 

[iron horse]

Wow, $40K to $2million just in ammo. I guess, unless an independent non profit gun organization has or could justify spending contributions/fees on public safety, etc., we may not find many controlled environment/ransom rest testing of different brands at the same time....but I will keep searching.

.....maybe if Las Vegas took bets on the outcomes it could be funded.

 

[Owen]

math error...200,00k at the top end for ammo. Silly decimal points, running around like crazy...