Indian 308 powder

[chas442]

I recently came into a substantial amount of the 90s and 2000s Indian ammo. I have started to pull all the components as I would not use them without balancing the powder loads.
It appears that 99% of the cartridges have a ball type powder that still smells like solvent. The 1% of extruded powder smells of solvent as well.
I pulled down and reloaded a substantial amout about 10 years ago.; I was able to get 4" groups at a hundred yards shooting off a bench. The firearm was a CIA R1A1 with a scope. Alas, those rounds are pretty much gone.
Does anyone know what powder was used and who made it. I would like to use the powder for other cartridges.

TIA

 

[chas442]

As a side note, The projectiles were of the 148 gr. variety. The powder charges very from 37gr to 47 gr for most of the cartridges. Some of the cartridges had as little as 7 gr to absolutely no powder. I also found pieces of brass inside a couple cases.

 

[444]

Funny you should mention this.

I have 2000 rounds of Indian .308. I bought it 10 or 15 years ago for something like $200. I couldn't pass it up.
However, when I shot it at 550 yards, I was shooting literally a six or seven foot group.

So, I basically just forgot about it until this year.
Earlier this year I decided I needed to do something with this stuff, so I took out 100 rounds and pulled the bullets. The bullets of course had that tar sealant on them. The powder is a ball powder and the charge weights varied all over the place. I think it from highest to lowest it was 5 grains.
So, just last week since it is winter, I decided to revisit this. I trimmed the primed cases and loaded, five loads using the Indian components with the highest charge being the average load out of the hundred I pulled. I cleaned the tar off the bullets using Goof Off. I brushed the inside of the case necks....

I haven't shot them, but..............I only have another 1900 to do something with. I may just face the fact that I am going to throw away 1900 rounds of .308 ammo rather than expend the time and effort to make some inaccurate ammo. And I am not naive enough to thing it will be anything other than inaccurate.

 

[splattergun]

The powder is a bulk powder produced for the factory to meet a certain set of specifications for that manufacturer. It varies lot to lot.
The powder you buy in the store is canister powder developed to meet a consistent set of specifications for the consumer.

 

[db_tanker]

I had two separate batches of Indian ammo...one had what appeared to have and electro-pencil head stamp and the other batch had a standard headstamp.

the standard headstamp was, as I was told at the time, made to Brit standards and the electro pencil stuff was for Indian military only. you could tell the difference for sure. I disassembled most of the indian military only stuff...bullets were fairly close on 147 gr but like what was mentioned before the charge weights were all over the place. some of the primers were sitting proud where others were way too deep. saved all the ones I could, trimmed, swaged the pockets and tumbled. loaded with good powder they were decent accuracy. I use that brass when I know I'll be somewhere I will have a hard time trying to collect it.

 

[444]

The only reason I am fooling with this is that I own a half dozen milsurp rifles: a couple FALs, a couple HKs.............. all of which are hard on brass. I thought maybe I could salvage something out of this for shooting out of the autoloaders and not worry about the brass.

At the time I bought this, I was into the local NFA crowd and I went to shoots like Big Sandy and Knob Creek. I figured when I bought it, if it sucked, I would give it to somebody with a belt fed or something. But, obviously that never happened.

 

[Slamfire]

The only reason I am fooling with this is that I own a half dozen milsurp rifles: a couple FALs, a couple HKs.............. all of which are hard on brass. I thought maybe I could salvage something out of this for shooting out of the autoloaders and not worry about the brass.

At the time I bought this, I was into the local NFA crowd and I went to shoots like Big Sandy and Knob Creek. I figured when I bought it, if it sucked, I would give it to somebody with a belt fed or something. But, obviously that never happened.

Shooting surplus ammunition in a machine gun is false economy, especially if it blows up a $100,000 dollar machine gun. If anyone has not noticed, the supply of machine guns in the hands of civilians was fixed back in the 1980's and the prices of those that are out there have increased several fold.You blow up the registered part of your machine gun, Uncle Sam does not give you a new one. It is all part of the plan, to get these things out of the hands of the public. You can do your thing to advance this plan, shoot old surplus ammunition in your expensive machine gun and blow it sky high.

Surplus ammunition was removed from inventory because the stuff was too dangerous to store and too dangerous to issue. Some Ammunition Technician went through that lot and based on his procedures, determined to remove it from his inventory. American's buy this old crap, thinking it to be "day old bread", and it is not hard to find examples of blown up weapons from old, deteriorated surplus ammunition. It is the gun powder that goes bad, the stuff breaks down, does not burn consistently, and that causes pressures to spike.

Here is some pretty pictures of what happens if that cheap surplus goes kaboom!



A machine gun bud of mine, told me he had blown the top cover twice using 1950's Yugo 8mm Mauser ammunition. He did not know why till I told him of the characteristics of old gunpowder and old ammunition.

I would be very attentive to using any salvaged military surplus gunpowder. I have tossed out about 75% of the surplus powder I bought, because it went bad. It was a total waste of money, but at the time, I did not know about gunpowder lifetime. I am glad the fuming keg of IMR 4895 did not burn my house down. I did not know why it was fuming and I did not know it was dangerous. Old gunpowder, in bulk (like 1lb or kegs) will autocombust and burn the house around you.

The safest course of action is to pour the stuff out, but if you want to balance your safety against the savings of shooting old gunpowder, then shoot it up and shoot it up quickly, and watch for any weird pressure indications. That happened to me with the last lot of surplus powder I had. It was pulled IMR4895, the seller of course claimed it was all new production, or some other lie. I shot the stuff and it shot well, but every so often a fired round would sound different. And I started getting sticky extraction one the occasional case. Then over time, I experienced case neck cracks on fired rounds, and unfired rounds, I experienced 700 cracked case necks on my expensive LC 308 match cases, stuff that had been loaded with the powder for a year. It was in this time frame I met a Naval Insensitive Munitions expert who educated me about the problems of old gunpowder, all of which are bad, bad, bad.

 

[Driftertank]

Ever seen "sweating" cordite?
Bad news, that stuff. Lol.

Got a "screaming deal" many years ago, on some surplus 7.62x54R...something like $75 for 880rds in sealed spam cans.
They musta been stored under water for 40 years or something. When i opened the cans, half the paper packages had water spots and mold, some of the cases tarnished, some totally rusted.
I picked about 20-30 of the nicest looking rounds to take to the range. More than half were duds, many of the ones that did fire were hangfires. At one point i got so frustrated after going through 5 duds in a row in my M44 that i fixed my bayonet and charged my target in a fit of whimsy.
As we were packing out, one of the regular brass scavengers asked me what i was gonna do with the rest of the stuff. I said he could have it.
Saw him a couple weeks later. He said the first time he pulled a projo and flipped the case, nothing came out. He opened the case with a file and the powder had all caked into one solid lump.

Yeah......

 

[bullseye308]

Used to be on another forum dedicated to CETME rifles and everyone there knew Indian ammo was bad and to be pulled down and reloaded with good powder. Lots of blown up rifles from that crap. I pulled down 4500 rounds myself that I got real cheap and a bunch of the brass didn’t make it the first loading.

 

[someguy2800]

Its Hodgdon H380 with a CCI BR2 primer.

Just kidding, god only knows whats in it. They probably make there own powder and primers.

 

[chas442]

Thanks for all of the input.
It's probably time to cut my losses with this powder.
Fortunately the ammo was a gift so all I lose is my time.
I don't know if I want to waste good powder with these bullets and cases.

 

[444]

Slamfire: Ok. But, let me point out a couple things.

The guys I knew that were going to these shoots with belt feds were not shooting transferable guns. They were dealers with dealer samples and that kind of stuff. Yes, most of the guys shooting the subguns and the battle rifles were shooting guns they personally owned. But, the bigger players in this were guys shooting the stuff the average Joe couldn't afford.
Second, when the guys I knew were at one of these shoots firing off a belt every couple hours, all day, at junk cars or whatever: they wern't shooting Black Hills match ammo. The stuff they were shooting was military surplus and it was typically the junkier stuff. So this wasn't just something I came up with out of the blue.

I am sure someone will come along and tell me they know 20 guys that own transferable belt feds and they only shoot pristine quality match ammo through them. But, I didn't know those guys.

One other thing that kind of ties into this is that at the time I bought this ammo, I was really into shooting vintage military rifle matches. I am not talking about NRA Service Rifle type shoots, I am talking about matches we held locally and regionally where we had typically four stages per match and you shot at steel plates (sometimes from improvised positions) out to 800 yards fairly quickly. However, the steel plates were fairly large. The smallest targets might be 10" or 12" and a hit was a hit. At 800, the plates were like 5' square. At the time these matches were quite popular because you could buy the milsurp rifles for right around $100 and surplus ammo was readily available and it was cheap. And everybody I knew of, shot surplus ammo. It was supposed to be a sort of fun match that anybody could get in to because of the low cost. Originally you had to shoot a bone stock, rack grade, milsurp rifle that was not modified. And the vast majority shot surplus ammo, again because it was dirt cheap. I originally bought this ammo for that thinking: how bad can it be ? It is from a NATO country.
Obviously I was very wrong in that assumption.

 

[Walkalong]

If the powder is good an experienced reloader could work up a load for it in a suitable caliber/bullet weight, but the ammo was crap in general, so I would have little confidence in the powder being much good even if it was fresh.

Fertilize the lawn with it.

 

[Slamfire]

Slamfire: Ok. But, let me point out a couple things.

One other thing that kind of ties into this is that at the time I bought this ammo, I was really into shooting vintage military rifle matches. I am not talking about NRA Service Rifle type shoots, I am talking about matches we held locally and regionally where we had typically four stages per match and you shot at steel plates (sometimes from improvised positions) out to 800 yards fairly quickly. However, the steel plates were fairly large. The smallest targets might be 10" or 12" and a hit was a hit. At 800, the plates were like 5' square. At the time these matches were quite popular because you could buy the milsurp rifles for right around $100 and surplus ammo was readily available and it was cheap. And everybody I knew of, shot surplus ammo. It was supposed to be a sort of fun match that anybody could get in to because of the low cost. Originally you had to shoot a bone stock, rack grade, milsurp rifle that was not modified. And the vast majority shot surplus ammo, again because it was dirt cheap. I originally bought this ammo for that thinking: how bad can it be ? It is from a NATO country.

Obviously I was very wrong in that assumption.

I shot thousands of rounds of old military surplus before I knew the risks. I had high pressure indications, I can particularly remember piercing primers with 8mm surplus. I did not know why. There is an interesting field of study: Agnotology, the study of culturally induced ignorance or doubt. Basically, "why don't you know what you don't know" I am of the opinion that the reason the shooting community is ignorant of the hazards of old gunpowder is because it does not sell product. Everything you consume, in the commercial press, is an inducement, an education, to buy! They are not going to educate you of what not to buy!. Your ignorance is their strength, shades of George Orwell's 1984.

Anyway, in this particular, industry keeping the shooting community ignorant of the hazards of old deteriorating gunpowder is unethical because it harms shooters. I have found lots of blowup accounts with old surplus ammunition, or even, old commercial ammunition. And I have found accounts of house fires with old, bulk gunpowder. Shooters need to be informed, maybe I am scaring shooters to irrational behaviors, through fear, but the bottom line is, get your self educated on the risks of this stuff and make an informed decision. And learn enough to understand what to look for, particularly over pressure indications and cracked cases when firing this stuff. Any indication of high pressure, scrap the lot. Pull the bullets, dump the powder, and determine if you salvage the cases. Consistent cracked case necks, scrap the lot. Any ammunition showing signs of corrosion caused by nitric acid gas outgassing from the gunpowder should be dumped.





This is a matter of safety, never mind the cost of the firearm. I would say those machine gunners blasting away pallets of ammunition, they are just as clueless as the rest of the shooting society, and as such, will come up with fantastical explanations why their machine gun blew up when that one super high pressure round blew the action. Even if they are wealthy behind reckoning, they ought to know what they are doing.

 

[Laphroaig]

I shot thousands of rounds of old military surplus before I knew the risks. I had high pressure indications, I can particularly remember piercing primers with 8mm surplus. I did not know why.

I think that ammunition loaded for military use has 2 common characteristics: its loaded hot to better kill people, and precision in weighing powder is secondary to mass production. When the HXP 30-06 ammo hit the market I know several people who pulled rounds to check out the components. They all said the powder charge had a 2 or 3 grain variance. My sense is that even the 7.5x55 GP11 is way hotter than my handloads.

I for one used to buy pull down 4895 when it was available. Maybe its better that it no longer is.

 

[Nature Boy]

The powder charges very from 37gr to 47 gr for most of the cartridges. Some of the cartridges had as little as 7 gr to absolutely no powder. I also found pieces of brass inside a couple cases.

I’ve read bad things about Indian surplus ammo. That explains it.

No thanks.