Info on a Finnish M39...

[Kestrel]

After the helpful info I got in the other thread I had posted about the 91/59, I looked for another Mosin Nagant. Today I found a Finn M39 in outstanding condition, also on consignment. It had a tag on it from the former owner stating it was built by Sako, with a Sako barrel on a Russian non-marked receiver. The receiver has a serial number and a date of 1970 on it. (Don't have any idea why 1970...) It was $250. (This was twice what I paid for the carbine, but it was in such good condition. Maybe I paid too much - I don't know.)

Anyway, the stock and rifle is in super condition and the bore looks great. The former owner stated with his handloads (not mil-surp ammo), he could hit the 10-ring at 600 yards.

Now, I don't know if a bit of what he wrote is true or not, but the gun sure looks good. The barrel is fairly thick, has protective wings on the front sight and the trigger is surprisingly light. The sights - especially the rear sight, seem very well machined for a military rifle. Better than the 91/59 I got the other day.

Is there a way I can verify the details of this gun? I'll post more details, numbers, etc., tomorrow, after I look at the gun again (it's late and I'm tired).

Thanks for any help,
Steve

 

[Beetle Bailey]

IIRC, the Sako marking is a fancy "S" inside a gearwheel. If this is one of those "unmarked late sixties to early seventies build-ups" AKA "sneaks" then I believe the reciever shouldn't be marked but there may be other small markings. Either way, whether it is a Sako, Tikka, or VKT, they are all reportedly of similiar quality. If you are happy with the condition, the price sounds good, since it was probably never issued to troops and just sat in the armory. The Finnish Mosin Nagants usually cost more than the Russian ones, and lately it seems like every Russian Mosin Nagant in the world decided to come the the United States, driving down prices. But you can see the quality and attention to detail with the Finns. Let me find some links for you. . .

 

[BamBam-31]

www.mosin-nagant.net is a pretty good resource.

 

[Bill Hook]

The barrel should be dated 1970, not the receiver (date under the tang). If it is a 98% gun or better, it is worth the $250.

I'm doubting his 600 yard story, but would say that he might do that at 300 yards.

 

[Beetle Bailey]

Check out this link and look for the section about "proofs and factory markings" for pictures of stuff you may find when you disassemble the rifle to learn its history . To call M39s "parts guns" is a disservice, since they are considered the best of the Mosins, but they really are parts guns so you might be able to find a few pieces of Russian, American, or even French Mosin Nagants as part of the gun. Barrel shank or stock might have the Sako "S" to help ID it.

Or just take it out and shoot it since it should be a great shooter. I have two M39s and am thinking of taking up hand loading to take advantage of the consistant accuracy I get (but I'm kinda lazy. . . ).

editted for grammar

 

[DMK]

I agree with Beetle Bailey, that would be very unusual to have a late 60's/early 70's M39 that also had a Sako marking on top of the barrel. They usually just have the date and S/N.

The Sneaks are highly desirable M39s though regardless of the markings. These were supposedly built for marksmanship and sniper duty. If it's not worn out, it will probably be very accurate.

 

[Kestrel]

Okay - I looked at the rifle again today, briefly. (Had a lot going on today.) I noticed it does NOT say Sako on it - anywhere. I don't think I saw any kind of a logo on the barrel, either. The receiver has some numbers and the date was actually on the barrel (where it connects to the receiver). There was also a small star on the top of the bolt, towards the back.

There were some other numbers, such as on the side of the rear sight assembly, but other than that, the receiver has no manufacturer markings or logo. The receiver is kind of a hexagonal shape, also.

(I wonder why the former owner thought it was made by Sako? He wrote on his tag something like, "made by Sako on an unmarked Izhmash(?) (or Izmazch?) receiver with a Sako barrel". I don't know what on the gun gives that kind of info.)

I'll look at it some more tomorrow and be able to study it in more detail.

Thanks again,
Steve

 

[Bill Hook]

I think Sako did make the barrels for these, but asking at mosin-nagant.net would be a good idea.

Probably should buy it.

 

[Beetle Bailey]

SteveW13 These rifles have been marketed as "sneaks" in part because they don't have the proof markings the older ones had. Did you take the rifle apart to look for other indicators? I don't know enough about these rifles so like Bill Hook suggests, if you want to learn more about it, ask around at www.gunboards.com under the "Collector Forum" (that's where I go for my info on this stuff ). Also, IINM the star (with arrow inside?) on the bolt means the Tula Arsenal in Russia made the bolt and most likely the Soviet soldier who carried the original rifle that bolt was matched to was KIA and the bolt re-used by the Finns (and re-numbered to match?) to build your rifle . I hope you don't believe in ghosts because I hear bullets pass right thru'em. An old Soviet soldier's ghost might visit you soon and ask for his bolt back so he can move on to the next life. . .

 

[GD]

You did well for a excellent 1970 sneak. These are all good shooters and relatively rare.

 

[geojap]

I have a 1970 Sneak. I haven't found a load that it likes yet, but it is in near-mint condition. Very nice rifle.

These Sneaks will not have any Finnish arsenal stamp on them (VKT, Sako, Tikka, etc), because they were produced in violation of the 1944 Continuation War treaty with the Soviets and those stamps were left off. I believe the original owner of the rifle was inferring the Sako provenance from something he read somewhere saying that these sneaks were made at the Sako arsenal. I haven't read anywhere that this is true or not. The sneaks will have a serial number, pressure proof stamp (3600) and year on the barrel shank. These were built after the Soviet Union invaded Czechoslovakia in 1967. The Finns began producing M39 rifles again because they feared invasion like many other Soviet neighbors did at the time, and the Finns wanted to arm their citizens with a rifle that would conserve ammo. The term "sneak" is also an American term. The Finns don't use it themselves.

To determine if it is an Izhevsk receiver, you would take the rifle apart and look for a stamp under the tang. It should be an arrow inside a triangle. There will also be a 2-digit date, the year of receiver manufacture. The other parts on the rifle will mostly be of Russian origin. The small star on the bolt is a Tula arsenal stamp. Another Tula stamp is a hammer (looks like a "T"). An arrow (especially in a triangle) is an Izhevsk stamp. An "R" inside a circle is a Remington mark. A "C" inside a circle is a Chatellerault (sp?) stamp. These are mix-master rifles that the Finns cobbled together from captured and purchased Mosins, mainly the 1891 Mosin-Nagant.

The price you paid is pretty fair for a 1970 sneak in like-new condition. If it is in 80%-90% condition, the price should be lower, more like $180 or $200.

Here are pics of mine. I cataloged all the arsenal stamps on mine. Lots of them are unexplained so far, I've never seen them documented anywhere.
http://www.gunsnet.net/album//showgallery.php?cat=3144&ppuser=7536

Here is a website by a Finnish person and he discusses the Sneaks.
http://guns.connect.fi/gow/QA17.html#sneakm39

You have the two best Mosin rifles ever made, in my opinion (M39 and 91/59). Enjoy them.

 

[Kestrel]

geojap,

Mine does have a 3600 on the barrel shank. I didn't post that number, because I didn't know if it was some sort of serial number. My gun looks a lot like the one you posted. Mine is not in as good a condition as yours, but is still in excellent shape. (It's not in like-new condition, though.)

I'll take it apart and look for other marks.

Thanks agian,
Steve

 

[Cosmoline]

Out of my rifle collection, the only ones I kept after a recent sell-off were my CZ 452 and my M-39. It's simply the best rifle overall for accuracy, ammo availability, toughness and ease of repair. Mine was put together in 1967 but the receiver dates back to the French contract in 1894. I would HIGHLY recommend these rifles if you have a good supply of current production Russian ammo from Wolf, Barnaul, etc.

IIRC these late model M-39's were often assembled in-house by the SA using the best receivers and barrels they could find. The story I heard is that's why there's no markings--because the army itself did the work not an arsenal. One thing is for sure, they were NOT made in contravention to any treaty, and were not "sneaks" in any sense of the word. This is a myth spawned from the US importers, and always drives the Finns crazy. Go over to Tuco's board and tell them you have a "sneak" but for lack of a better word that's what a lot of folks still call them.

As far as *why* they were made I've heard from Finns that they were NOT made out of fear of the USSR, but to ensure a supply of accurate rifles for marksmanship training. But of course they needed marksmen because of the USSR and I have no doubt that the Prague Spring and its aftermath reminded them that the big bear next door was still hungry.

Interestingly, this wasn't the last use of the ancient Mosin receivers by the Finnish Army. They made a sniper rifle line out of Mosin parts even in the '80's, the name of which escapes me at the moment. Z-85 or something. It is still in use by troops, so the Finns on Tuco's board are reluctant to discuss details of it as a matter of national security. The fact that the receivers from century-old rifles are still considered a matter of national security should tell you all you need to know about this line of rifles!
.

 

[Beetle Bailey]

Sorry Cosmo, I didn't want to call'em "sneaks" [that 's why I put it in parenthesis (sp?)] but I thought it might help SteveW13 know if some useful info was referring to his rifle. Okay, I hereby banish the term "sneak" when used to describe "Brand-X" M39's from this forum.

Also, yeah, if it's a "no name/no maker" M39, that guy shouldn't be calling it a Sako. I don't like to throw accusations around, especially when I am by no means an expert, but it seems to me that "Sako" is a very well know high quality current production rifle manufacturer so that the very name "Sako" could suggest a higher level of quality from a milsurp than, say VKT or even Tikka (although Tikka is also well known). Therefore, just saying so-and-so M39 is made by Sako could make it more desirable than saying it's made by "Brand-X" . I don't mean to accuse so much as trying to bring up a possibility.

Bottom line, take it out and shoot it and let us know how well it groups, even if it isn't "all in the 10-ring at 600 yards."

 

[geojap]

On the whole, Sako M39's are of no higher quality that any other M39. I have one of every manufacturer and this collector (but not expert) can discern no noticable difference. M39 production by Sako, Valmet (VKT) and Tikka used the same methods and procedures. The reason Sako is more valuable or collectible has to do with name recognition only, not in build quality or shooting precision. All my mosins are a little different, especially in trigger pull. I have a Sako M39 in VG condition that has an extremely crisp 3.5 pound trigger and a Tikka 91/30 that is second, coming in at around 4.5 pounds with a clean break. But I have 2 more Sako M39's that have very average M39 triggers.

Differences in value don't exist beause of quality differences, just rareness or some aspect of historical intrigue. I don't think quality differences between Finnish manufacturers and models really existed after the Finns started making the M27 rifle, except for the improved sights that were added to the M28/30 and M39. For example, consider the Finn 28/30's extreme popularity when compared to a Finn M28. The reason is that a 28/30 was used by Simo Haya and it lives in legend. The B-barrel has a unique draw because of the shroud around its reason for being and intriguing Belgian provenance. Sako is a well-known household name, and while VKT may not be connected to the Valmet name by the common collector, which the state arsenal was eventually named. The SKy rifles were used by Finn home guard militias and are held in high regard by 2nd Amendment-supporting Americans and add to their value.

 

[cwalker3]

Steve, not to beat a dead horse, but you paid a fair price for a rifle of excellent quality. To give you an idea of what to expect when you shoot it, my 1968 M-39 grouped 10 rounds into 2 1/2" at 100 yards with iron sights and 49 year old eyes. Not too shabby if I say so myself.

And for what it's worth, these so-called Sneaks were put together from mostly Sako parts to be used by Finn officers-in-training. (According to Terrance Lapin's book 'The Mosin Nagant Rifle'.)

 

[benEzra]

Steve, an excellent book on Finnish M39's and other Finn Mosins is "Rifles of the White Death" by Doug Bowser (I hope I spelled his name right). IIRC, to be accepted into the Finnish Army, a rifle had to put 3 shots into 5 cm at 150 m.

My best group with my 1905/1942 VKT M39 had 4 out of 5 in 1 3/8" at 100 yd, right at point of aim, with one flyer that opened the group to 3" or so (I blew the last shot).:banghead: