Instead of medal he richly deserves, Lt. Col. West will get a court martial

[Jeff White]

First of all..regardless what you think, it's NOT a quagmire...

w4rma,

Ok, you don't fit in with most of your party. So there is no need to defend yourself. But you can't deny that all of the Democratic Candidates but Dean were hawks on the war before it started.

Containment never works. Sooner or later people are going to have to realize that the for there to be peace one side must lose. Our record of success in returning things to the status quo is not the best. And if we don't start forming Western style republics in the middle east, there will never be peace there.

You and Howard Dean may criticise the war. You were against it from the start. The rest of them, especially Clark are simply dancing on the graves of men who they aren't fit to clean up after.

Jeff

 

[w4rma]

I'm a pretty typical Democrat, IMHO. As Will Rogers said, "I belong to no organized party. I am a Democrat."

Here is my understanding of the Democratic presidential candidates' positions on the invasion of Iraq:

• Rep. Gephardt and Sen. Lieberman were pro-invasion. They actually undercut efforts by many members of the Senate and the House to bring a vote on a limited version of the Iraq War Resolution bill (which was essentially a blank check). This weaker version was the Biden/Lugar bill.
• Sen. Edwards was pro-invasion, but wasn't at the rose garden ceremony with Rep. Gephardt and Sen. Lieberman.
• Sen. Kerry was anti-invasion behind the scenes but tried to appear pro-invasion.
• Gen. Clark was somewhat anti-invasion. IMHO, he was trying to slow things down to get folks to maybe stop and think:
  'Let's Wait to Attack' by General Wesley K. Clark (October 10, 2002)
• Obviously Gov. Dean was anti-invasion. He was very outspoken against this particular war. He supported Afghanistan, though.
• Sen. Graham was anti-invasion and voted against the Iraq War Resolution in the Senate. It is my understanding that he thought that it detracted from the War on Terror. More info.
• Rep. Kucinich is anti-invasion and voted against the Iraq War Resolution in the House. Rev. Sharpton and Amb. Braun were probably always anti-invasion.

Rumsfeld Says No Early U.S. Pullout from Iraq
Fri, Nov 14, 2003

ANDERSON AIR FORCE BASE, Guam (Reuters) - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told U.S. forces in the Pacific on Friday there was no plan for an early withdrawal from Iraq, but Iraqis would get more power more quickly than initially thought.

"There is no decision to pull out early, indeed quite the contrary," Rumsfeld said when asked by troops stationed on the Pacific island outpost of Guam about reports of a premature withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq.

"We will stay there as long as necessary to see that that country is put on a path" to democracy, he said.

Rumsfeld said the initial plan had been for a transfer of sovereignty after a new Iraqi constitution had been ratified and elections held.

But the process was likely to take about two years and the Iraqi Governing Council and U.S. administrator Paul Bremer would try to find a way of transferring some responsibility before that.
…
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031114/ts_nm/iraq_rumsfeld_dc_4

 

[Sergeant Bob]

Preacherman

IIRC, the initial reports of this incident stated that Col. West's troops physically assaulted or tortured those being questioned, and that when this didn't produce the desired information, Col. West staged his shooting stunt. IMHO, this definitely warrants a court-martial: mistreatment of prisoners in the presence of the commanding officer, who then joins in the mistreatment! There's no way on earth that this conduct should be condoned.

Not saying you're wrong but, I wouldn't put alot of stock in what the media gave out in initial reports. If the torture claims were true they (along with the Bush haters) would still be trumpeting it from on high. They are usually in such a big hurry to get the story out first, they don't care if they have to stretch the truth a bit, or slant it any way that $ell$. They're into that body count thing just like Viet Nam, and I think most of them would like nothing better than to find another Lt Kally (sp?).
Look at the Jessica Lynch debacle.
Look at all the "quagmire" reports. How much all the Iraqi's hate us. G.I.'s with no food or water during the invasion, down to one MRE and one bottle of water per day, even when embedded (Fox) reporters with the troops were saying to the world it wasn't true!
Ask some of the members of this board who are currently over there or were there and see what they have to say. What I've heard from them is nothing like I've heard from the media.
Sorry for the rant but it just burns me that there are people who seem to relish the thought of failure just to sell advertisements or bring down the "NeoCons".
Sorry Preacherman, most of that wasn't really directed at you. It's just that once I started I got kind of wound up.

 

[Sean Smith]

w4rma,

You might be a bit more credible as something other than a Democratic Underground troll if you ever used this forum to talk about... guns.

http://www.thehighroad.org/search.p...archid=441529&sortby=&sortorder=&pagenumber=1

 

[Jeff White]

Sergeant Bob,
Something was wrong in that brigade. The charges against LTC West were filed after an investigation into the command climate of the brigade. The media reports have focused on LTC West, but there were obviously other things wrong there. When the Army looks into ccommand climate they are concerned that the entire chain of command is doing their own thing without regard to the regulations. I would imagine that LTC West's commander is on the hot seat too, not only for allowing the incident to happen, but because he initially did nothing about it when it was brought to his attention.

None of us knows what was happening in that brigade. Let's allow the system to work. If LTC West was so sure he was right, he'd have no need to try his case publically like he's doing.

Jeff

 

[hops]

Sort of related, even if indirectly - from the AP.

U.S. Soldiers Will Be Charged
With Abusing Iraqi Prisoners

Associated Press

CAIRO, Egypt -- U.S. military officials have decided to prosecute three American soldiers from Pennsylvania on charges of abusing Iraqi prisoners of war, a U.S. Army spokesman said Friday.

Maj. Victor Harris, spokesman for the Kuwait-based U.S. Land Forces Component Command, said the three will be formally charged on Saturday in an arraignment hearing at Camp Doha, Kuwait.

The charges grew out of an alleged incident May 12 at a U.S. detention facility, Camp Bucca, in southern Iraq. The three soldiers, from the 320th Military Police Battalion, based in Ashley, Pa., are accused of punching and kicking Iraqi POWs while escorting them to Camp Bucca.

After an inquiry, U.S. military investigators recommended bringing charges, which since have been filed by the Third U.S. Army's commanding general, Lt. Gen. David D. McKiernan. Saturday will be the first time the charges are formally read out to the accused soldiers.

The soldiers have said they acted in self-defense, that conditions were chaotic at Camp Bucca and that guards had been harassed and assaulted daily by unruly prisoners.

The three soldiers, Master Sgt. Lisa Marie Girman, 35 years old; Staff Sgt. Scott A. McKenzie, 38; and Spc. Timothy F. Canjar, 21, are accused of dereliction of duty, cruelty and maltreatment of enemy prisoners of war, filing false official statements, obstruction of justice and conspiracy to obstruct justice.

A fourth soldier originally held on the same allegations, Sgt. Shawna Edmondson, 24, has received a discharge from the military, which she requested rather than face court-martial proceedings.

The soldiers, who had been stationed at Camp Bucca, were moved to Camp Doha several months ago and suspended from normal duties, but are performing administrative tasks.

During Saturday's arraignment, the three soldiers will be able to enter pleas, and a date for the court martial is expected to be set. The court martial will be held at both Camp Doha and at Camp Bucca to allow Iraqi prisoners of war to testify.

Copyright © 2003 Associated Press

 

[Khornet]

w4rma,

"Bush's FAILED leadership"

That's a laugh. You mean your FAILED followership. You gotta wonder what kind of results we'd have by now if there hadn't been so much obstruction.

 

[longeyes]

This thread needs a cynic. Let me volunteer.

When the future history of the Middle East is written no one will remember which
military force was kinder or gentler, only who won.

I think that just as there are two Americas fighting a cultural war
internally, we are seeing the same phenomenon inside our own military.
The repercussions of that could be vast. Going after our own sounds very
civilized but what message are we really trying to send, and to whom exactly,
and from where exactly is it coming?

America needs to get to believing in what it has to offer the world and protect
that legacy with every ounce of its strength.

 

[Jeff White]

Longeyes said,

Going after our own sounds very
civilized but what message are we really trying to send, and to whom exactly, and from where exactly is it coming?

The message we are trying to send is that it's not ok for American soldiers to violate the UCMJ and the Law of Land Warfare, even if the ends do justify the means. This has got nothing to do with making us look like a kinder, gentler army and everything to do with maintaining good order and discipline.

Where do we draw the line? Perhaps next time if we only knee cap the detainee it's ok as long as we get the info we need. How about hooking a detainee's scrotum and nipples up to a TA 312 and turning the crank while we interrogate him. Let's see, another one I've known about is to strip the detainee naked and wrap his body with time fuse. Light the fuse and as it burns, the plastic waterproof coating bubbles with the heat causing a nice burn on the detainee' body as the flame burns the length of the fuse. Maybe just a good beating would be in order. It's all ok as long as we get results right??


Regardless of what the PAOs may say. Our soldiers will get tired, they will be scared. They will want to go home. They will look at people form a culture that is strange to them and it will be very easy to de-humanize them. Some of these same people who they will find hard to understand, are trying to kill them. So we let a battalion commander get by with this, how will we stop the rank and file from carrying it farther?

There is no way we can condone a field grade officer, a man who commands an artillery battalion, violating the law of land warfare and the UCMJ. If we do that, we might as well give our soldiers license to do the other things I've mentioned. There is an old saying that says; "Everytime you let a soldier disregard the standard, you have established a new lower standard."

BTW...We can and will win without resorting to those methods.
Jeff

 

[Jeff White]

UPDATE:

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=0-292925-2400004.php

November 14, 2003

Hearing set for officer who used scare tactic

By Jane McHugh
Times staff writer

A battalion commander in Iraq who fired a pistol near an Iraqi policeman who was refusing to divulge what he knew about an impending attack on American soldiers will have a pretrial hearing next week.

The scare tactic worked, and the man told of a planned ambush, according to the officer’s lawyer.

Lt. Col. Allen B. West’s Article 32 hearing on charges of assault and communicating a threat is tentatively set for Nov. 18, said Master Sgt. Robert Cargie, a spokesman for Task Force Ironhorse, 4th Infantry Division in Tikrit.

West, who has 20 years of service, hired a civilian attorney, Neal Puckett, a former Marine Corps judge, to defend him in court.

The case has raised the ire of pro-military people across the country and has been much discussed on talk radio and television. West headed the 2nd Battalion, 20th Field Artillery Regiment but was relieved of his command and transferred to the 173rd Airborne Brigade.

West, who reported the gunshot incident right after it happened, was “given an ultimatum†to either resign, which would take away his pension, or face charges, Puckett told Army Times in an e-mail.

West’s retirement date came up Nov. 1, and the ultimatum came Oct. 18, he said.

In an e-mail to Army Times, West said the support he’s gotten in the media is “humbling and helpful.â€

 

[longeyes]

"The message we are trying to send is that it's not ok for American soldiers to
violate the UCMJ and the Law of Land Warfare, even if the ends do justify the
means. This has got nothing to do with making us look like a kinder, gentler army
and everything to do with maintaining good order and discipline."

Ah, I see. Now for me the time to be morally superior is BEFORE you
reach the battlefield. Know your cause is just and right, then do what is necessary to prevail. Good order and discipline are desirable because they enable victory, not because they provide a better defense at some future Nuremburg.

 

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

We must never compare our actions to that of the enemy. We must never justify our actions by those of the enemy. We must never allow our actions to violate the integrity of our standing SOP. As much as I would like to support the Col., he will have a fair hearing with all of the facts. After the facts are learned, then I can make up my mind. Right now, we are in a world of spin.

Wherever the US flag is worn on the uniform, the indigenous people are treated fairly and respectfully, as a rule with few exceptions. The PR value of acting according to the rule of law is invaluable. Doing whatever you may think is necessary may be wise at the moment, but may have consequences. I hope the facts support the Col.

 

[w4rma]

Sean Smith, in short, here is my view on why enough Americans, to keep the powers that be on their toes, should stay armed:

I think that Americans need to stay armed in part to keep **ANY** conglomeration of power, either the government or an overseas/domestic economic (or otherwise) power, that would take control over the United States government and therefore our armed forces. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. I do not want to see an American aristocracy created. America's founding fathers rebelled, and many patriots paid for our freedom with their lives, against the English aristocracy. We don't need a new one.

I think too many folks think that the government is the only power with the potential for oppression. They are darn correct that the government has the potential for oppression, but to say that a government is the only power with that potential is incorrect.

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." - Thomas Jefferson

There are *many* progressives who are pro-gun.

Khornet, Bush* was given a blank check by the Iraq War Resolution. On Bush's Iraq invasion and occupation, he has received everything he asked for from within the country.

On topic: Whatever Lt. Col. West did, my ire is directed at the politicians and businessfolks who put him in this position where he thought (and may have been correct) he had to do what he may have done to survive and bring other Americans home alive. I hope this situation is handled well and respects his hard and loyal work for America, the Constitution and laws of the U.S. and our military institution.

 

[gunsmith]

wr4ma

Iraq is not Vietnam.
That article from reuters originated from
Al Jazeera.
FREE COL WEST JAIL THE FED BUREAUCRATS NOW

 

[longeyes]

"I think that Americans need to stay armed in part to keep **ANY** conglomeration of power, either the government or an overseas/domestic economic (or otherwise) power, that would take control over the United States government and therefore our armed forces. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. I do not want to see an American aristocracy created. America's founding fathers rebelled, and many patriots paid for our freedom with their lives, against the English aristocracy. We don't need a new one."

You're a mite late, aren't you? The Enron bankruptcy is to supposed to cost a billion dollars. That's a lot of wealth going to people who take no risks and create nothing. It will be a boon, though, to the Ivy League schools those lawyers will send their broods to.

And you've surely been reading about Dick Grasso and his $140M pay-out? Not bad for a guy who was really a bureaucrat, not even a trader. And of course, on the trading side, you have the Wall St. elites doing their part. Mutual funds, supposedly the vehicle for "the little guy," skimming millions. More good news for Brown, Penn, and Princeton.

You are right: we do need to stay armed. But the aristocracy is already in place. Big Teddy and Big Hillary are watching you.

A lot of us think the ACLU already runs America.

 

[Redlg155]

I'm waiting to see what information comes out under oath at the court martial. Right now what I do see is a lot of reports that have different views of the incident.

I say let the court martial run its course. Only after hearing the true facts can we really make a decision.



Good Shooting
Red

 

[Dashunde]

This whole situation disgusts me.
During most of our wars, regardless of who we are fighting, our American POW's have been treated pretty poorly by the opposition... and we are still missing many of them. Our POW's are/were often starved, beaten, tortured, and outright killed. It's not to say that we dont do some of the same things, but overall we Americans tend to be far less brutal than our opposition.

I pretty much have a "so what?" attitude towards West's actions.
Right now, today, we will probably lose another few of our guys to these sneak-attacks. If we have to occasionally scare the living ????? out of a detainee to help thawart an ambush... again, I say "so what?".

 

[Gary H]

w4rma:

All of your post are on this Forum (Legal and Political) and I bet they all allow you to bash Bush. Now, I do think that Bush deserves some criticism, but why are you on this board if you have no interest in guns? If you have interest in guns then why are all your post here?

 

[c_yeager]

We should not hold ourselves to the standards of our enemies. We are better than them. To forget that is to lose the moral ground that we have in any war. We can become like them and we too will be just as evil as they.

 

[WonderNine]

I'm glad I never joined the military...

Who in their right mind would want to deal with the B.S. nowadays.