Please Don’t allow Col. West to “stand alone.â€

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gunsmith

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Col. West saved American servicemen and women with one shot,a shot that killed no one!
Lets tell the Fed bureaucrats that Col. West deserves a promotion!
Not a reprimand!!!
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/
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Let Loose the Dogs of War ... on a Short Leash?
Geoff Metcalf

“Vivacity, leadership, must be had, and we are not allowed to be nice in choosing. We must fetch the pump with dirty water, if clean cannot be had.â€
– Ralph Waldo Emerson
I love the Army. Metcalfs have served in the Army since before we officially had one. However, I am apoplectic over the chairborne politically correct cancer/brain flatulence that reportedly intends to excoriate Lt. Col. Allen B. West for doing his job and saving lives.
The Army has myopically filed a criminal assault charge against an American officer who coerced an Iraqi into providing information that foiled a planned attack on U.S. soldiers. Full Story

Col. West did not torture or physically harm the Iraqi detainee. He did use psychological pressure to scare the snot out of the bad guy. And it worked! After he twice fired his service weapon away from the wannabe terrorist (who was an Iraqi police officer), the detainee talked and gave up the information on a planned attack.

Lives were saved and now some uniformed bureaucrats back in the rear with the gear want to destroy the life of a combat leader. It is enough to gag maggots.

When Tom Clancy’s Jack Ryan interrogates a bad guy working with terrorists by shooting him in the arms and legs, we cheer. When an Army officer scares an enemy in a combat zone with a loud noise, they want to nail him to a wall?

The same kind of politically correct desk jockey types who are Jonesing to put women in combat, neuter fighter jocks and impose rules of engagement for a cricket club instead of barbaric 13th century guerrillas now seek to destroy an exceptionally effective combat leader. What is wrong with this picture?

Col. West was with the 4th Infantry occupying areas around Tikrit (Saddam's hometown) … a real bad neighborhood infested with bad guys intent on killing him and his troops.

* An informant reported that there was an assassination plot against Col. West.
* The informant told the soldiers that one person involved in the attack was a town policeman.
* Col West had the policeman detained but interrogators couldn’t get anything of substance out of him.
FM22-100 (the Army leadership manual) notes that “Leaders are responsible for the welfare, discipline and tactical deployment of their troops.â€
* Col. West wrote in an e-mail, "I asked for soldiers to accompany me and told them we had to gather information and that it could get ugly. …"
* He said his soldiers "physically aggress[ed]" the prisoner. Apparently they pushed him around.
* After the pushing-around failed, Col. West says he brandished his pistol.
* "I did use my 9 mm weapon to threaten him and fired it twice. Once I fired into the weapons clearing barrel … and the next time I did it while having his head close to the barrel. I fired away from him. I stood in between the firing and his person.
* He said, "I admit that what I did was not right but it was done with the concern of the safety of my soldiers and myself." (I disagree. Given the results, that lives were saved, his actions were both appropriate and effective.)
* Unlike many politicians and corporate types with less honor and character, he did not try to cover up or hide what he did. He informed his superior of his actions.
The incident resulted in the bad guy providing the location of the planned sniper attack and the names of three guerrillas.
If Col. West had waited for the ambush and shot and killed the Iraqi cop, no harm/no foul. However, because he ‘scared’ him with an implied threat of force ‘pre-emptively,’ the Army wants to destroy his life and blow off over 19 years of superior dedicated service? For what … implementing ‘The Bush Doctrine’ down to battalion level?

His wife said: "My husband is a top-of-the-line officer. My husband is an African-American. He has had to overcome a number of things to get where he is.â€

Col. West is prepared to "… accept being retired at the grade of major and paying whatever fine required, but resignation and prison seems an attempt to destroy me."

BULLFEATHERS! Now, more than ever, we NEED officers like this man.

The Army’s division of political correctness doesn’t like West’s interrogation tactic. An Article 32 hearing has been scheduled leading to the court-martial and a potential prison term of eight years. They should have given him a medal and promotion.

Some soldiers are hinky about the Army's drive to punish the officer for an interrogation technique that probably is used regularly to get information from terrorists.

There ARE consequences to what we do and don’t do. For a military struggling with morale, recruiting and retention issues to do what it is doing to Col. West WILL exact a cost. It is a cost we cannot and should not be forced to endure.

Woodrow Wilson observed: “Leadership does not always wear the harness of compromise. … Men of strenuous minds and high ideals come forward. ... The attacks they sustain are more cruel than the collision of arms. ... Friends desert and despise them. ... They stand alone and oftentimes are made bitter by their isolation.â€

Please don’t allow Col. Wes to “stand alone.†Spread the word. There IS an election around the corner
 
My only problem with this is that under those same circumstances i cant think of a single person that wouldnt confess to virtually anything. Is there any evidence at all to suggest that the man in question wasnt simply saying what was expected of him out of fear? It seems that he "questioned" this fellow based ONLY on the testimony of an informant. I dont question the tactic used in general BUT, i dont think this is a case that warrented such methods.
 
c_yeager
My only problem with this is that under those same circumstances i cant think of a single person that wouldnt confess to virtually anything. Is there any evidence at all to suggest that the man in question wasnt simply saying what was expected of him out of fear?
Just going by the report given, I'm assuming they did avert an actual attack.
The incident resulted in the bad guy providing the location of the planned sniper attack and the names of three guerrillas.

It seems that he "questioned" this fellow based ONLY on the testimony of an informant.
Due to the fact that it is a wartime situation, I think he has to go with what information he's got. If he has to wait for more evidence, that "evidence" may well involve dead soldiers.

This is mostly conjecture, and not meant to be arguementative. Just another way of looking at it.
 
At the risk of being a minority opinion at THR, I think West should be tried.


And found not guilty, with record expunged.


Man got the job at hand done using unconventional methods. The air needs to be cleared, for the Colonel and for the Army.

TC
TFL Survivor
 
No good deed goes unpunished.

I don't think he should be tried at all. I'm not familiar with the UCMJ, but it seems that he may have bent the rules, but didn't break them since there were clearly extenuating circumstances.
 
Let’s go over what was wrong with West’s actions.

To start, bear in mind that he acted to prevent an assassination plot against HIMSELF. He sacrificed the overall interests of the U.S. mission in Iraq to save his own butt. Furthermore, remember that this guy is an ARTILLERY officer that took it upon himself to conduct a counter-intelligence interrogation, when his division has (at a minimum) an entire military intelligence battalion to call on for PROFESSIONAL support. Consider the following:

The source in question clearly possessed valuable information. Information that we will probably never get access to, because West threatened him with death, poisoning the well as far as any future, PROFESSIONAL, interrogation of him is concerned. Certainly, the fact that West’s bungled interrogation is now public makes it impossible for us to use the guy as a source in the future, let alone turn him to our side & use him as a double agent. Of course, getting any voluntary cooperation from the guy is unlikely anyway, given that West threatened him with death. West may have gotten one useful nugget of information from this source; actual intelligence professionals who KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING could have accomplished so much more with the guy. Which cops are crooked? How do they interact with the terrorist elements? The kind of information you need to tear open terrorist operations.

Certainly, the guy might have been an intelligence dead end. The CI professionals might have failed to get anything from the guy. But now, failure is guaranteed… a big difference.

Furthermore, West has given our enemies propaganda fodder to portray us as brutal thugs. The mere fact that his interrogation is public should be considered a setback for U.S. interests.

West squandered a golden opportunity for U.S. forces in order to save his own butt. His behavior is a reflection of the bungling, amateurish view of intelligence that is unfortunately held by many officers. Not impressed.
 
Interesting observations.

One question: how much does timeliness have to do with the urgency of interrogation. In my view field, tactical intelligence holds sway over more strategic intelligence because of the urgency of the moment.

I remember talking to WW II, Korea, and Vietman vets about how urgent it is to get tactical intelligence out of captives.

From what you described it sounds like the Col. was more interested in urgent tactical info right now vs what the professionals wanted to do down the road.

Not an attempt to flame. Its just interesting to me to see that once again we are stumbling over intelligence or lack thereof.
 
Gotta concurr with Sean on this one. The LTC broke the rules set by the JAG. I do hope they go easy on him.

History channel had a good piece on the JAG on Sunday. Very informative. U.S. troops represent the United States of America and must take the 'high road' in dealing with the enemy in the field. The LTC 'thought' tactically, but forgot the strategic part of the mission.

Here is a good link to a book I saw posted on another gun board. I have heard about this person, but nver the details. In fact, he is referenced without name, in Clancy's "Red Storm Rising" - when the Destroyer sinks the Victor and rescues the crew. Proper interrogation is a true artform.

http://www.schifferbooks.com/military/luftwaffe/0764302612.html

Lastly, there are always 'exceptions' to the rule. In this case, the LTC is wrong. Now, had 1000 U.S. Troops been in 'immediate' mortal danger, then I'd cut the LTC some slack.
 
From what you described it sounds like the Col. was more interested in urgent tactical info right now vs what the professionals wanted to do down the road.

No. I'm talking about mission success or failure, something that a field grade officer in the United States Army is expected to understand. He's not supposed to jeopardize the overall mission just to protect HIMSELF. Again, according to West himself the lead he had involved a plot to kill him personally. Hell, the intent of the bad guys might have been to provoke him into doing something stupid to give the U.S. Army a black eye in the media...

4th ID (not some pie-in-the-sky strategic echelon above God, but West's own division) has considerable intelligence assets available that are actually COMPETENT to perform a tactical counter-intelligence interrogation of the subject. I'm talking a phone/radio call away. The FULL-TIME JOB of Army CI is to do exactly what West did... only to actually do it competently and with some semblance of discretion.

Had he uncovered evidence that a bunch of his soldiers were going to get murdered and he went off the handle, I'd be alot more sympathetic. He'd still probably be wrong, but it would be alot more understandable that acting like an idiot based on what amounted to a simple personal threat to himself.
 
The one little detail I was not aware of that did not come through the articles or reports I read was the plot was directed against the Col. I was under the impression it plot targeted his men.

Do you have any links which discuss that one little factoid???
 
Let the system work the way it's supposed to. LTC West will get his day in court. None of us knows what really happened there. All we know is what the media has told us. If the media account is true, LTC West is guilty of a couple violations of the UCMJ. This is real war we're talking about. This isn't Samuel L. Jackson in Rules of Engagement.

Lets not forget, this incident came to light in the course of a larger investigation into the command climate in the Brigade. In war you can almost always make the case that the ends justify the means when it comes time to break the law.

I have a question for all you guys who think that we should let this go, because it worked out well this time; How do you intend to maintain discipline in the ranks when it comes to this kind of conduct if you let this pass? LTC West commanded an Artillery Battalion, probably about 400 men. These redlegs are totally out of thsie environment to start with, they are doing an Infantry/MP type mission instead of putting steel on target. They don't have much formal training in what they are doing. It's all OJT in a very dangerous environment. So we make a hero of LTC West at the worst or just ignore it at the best, but the soldiers under him are still affected by it. By making him a hero, we are telling every 20 year old cannoneer, who is now acting as a grunt/MP that it's ok to intimidate information out of detainees. So our 20 year old cannoneer is out on patrol and his section comes across some Ba'athists setting up an IED mine in a road culvert. The men in the section are tired, they are scared and they know that these men have probably killed their buddies. They start a field interrogation and it gets out of hand, they shoot a detainee. A freelance cameraman films the interrrogation from a concealed position and sells it to CNN. Now we have soldiers on trial for war crimes. Their lives are ruined and the entire mission is threatened.

The system has to work. If it doesn't it will be very easy for things to get out of control.

Jeff
 
The one little detail I was not aware of that did not come through the articles or reports I read was the plot was directed against the Col. I was under the impression it plot targeted his men.

Do you have any links which discuss that one little factoid???

Well, the story that was quoted in the post that started this topic states it quite clearly.

From the http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/ article:

* An informant reported that there was an assassination plot against Col. West.

Also, according to the original Washington Times report on the incident, it was WEST HIMSELF who stated that the lead that he had concerned an assassination attempt against him specifically... not his unit or U.S. forces in general.

Edited to add: here is the story, http://www.washtimes.com/national/20031028-113335-6042r.htm

In response to an e-mail from The Times, Col. West, a 19-year veteran, gave his version of events.
Col. West is a member of the 4th Infantry, the Fort Hood, Texas, division occupying areas around Tikrit, Saddam's hometown and an area infested with loyalists of the former regime.
An informant reported that there was an assassination plot against Col. West, an artillery officer working with the local governing council in Saba al Boor.

According to West himself, the chain of events started with him learning about an assassination plot against himself.

Jeff rightly points out that we don't have all the facts at our disposal. There may well be extenuating circumstances that make West look better than the facts available. Perhaps he can make a reasonable plea of necessity, or there are other extenuating circumstances that aren't public. However, it is extremely difficult to concieve of a situation where cannon-cockers performing counter-intelligence interrogations in lieu of the battalions of MI folks roaming the country somehow serves the interests of mission accomplishment.

Of course, it is possible that LTC West simply couldn't get a qualified CI type to interrogate the subject. Maybe he tried to get one and neglected to mention it. But the odds that CI assets weren't available to a high-visibility mission involving working with a local governing council (to look into a credible assassination threat, no less) hovers somewhere around zero. Heck, I've seen firsthand where individual battalions have entire CI detachments assigned to support them on piddly, low-priority peacekeeping missions. Now that I think about it, I never DIDN'T see CI folks on a regular basis as a MI staff officer assigned to manuver units on "real" deployments.

Regardless, by his own admission he is an artilleryman, utterly unqualified to perform a CI interrogation, who decided to do it anyway, in an illegal manner, that got all over the news. If we shouldn't villify the guy just yet, he sure as hell doesn't look like hero material for what he did, either.
 
ok,they are not MP's

But are stuck doing that job.
IMHO we should give the guy a break and fight the war like we
want to win not fight and worry about what fed bureaucrats
or armchair LTC's are going to say/do.
Sure the job could have been better handled by a real "interrorgator"
The Good Col may have felt time was of the essence.
Anyway,Geoff has had alot more experience
in this stuff then I did...I was in the Signal Corp's
and was the guy the other side would have been looking to
shoot.
Geoff probably knows alot more about this stuff
then I do and I am rootting for the good Col to get a promotion.
 
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