Interesting article with a strange conclusion...

[Poper]

"As in Weimar Germany, some well-meaning people today advocate severe restrictions, including bans and registration, on gun ownership by law-abiding persons. Such proponents are in no sense “Nazis,” any more than were the Weimar officials who promoted similar restrictions. And it would be a travesty to compare today’s situation to the horrors of Nazi Germany."

Maybe so. However: "He who fails to learn from history is doomed to repeat it." I forget where I heard it first, or who said it first, but it is a wise pronouncement, none the less.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2013/12/how-nazis-used-gun-control-stephen-p-halbrook/

 

[Palolosj]

What is truly shocking is Hitler won first election by a very large margin. I find it amusing when they have the nerve to assign horrors by Germans during World War II to members of the Nazi Party, absurd. I always say German War crimes never Nazi War Crimes.

 

[Qweevox]

Government is just "other people".

We speak of Government as if it were a thing, but it's just a set of ideas. It has no existence except in our minds. It's an abstraction. It's run by "other people". Not angels of our better nature, just people. Some good some bad, and everything in between. All of them flawed. It's never a good idea to turn over all power to other people. Bad things usually come from doing this.

 

[Palolosj]

I hope we never elect a monster like Adolf Hitler.

 

[TomJ]

Having parents who came here from Poland immediately after WW2 and having many family members who were victims of the Nazis, I'm hesitant to compare anyone to Nazi's unless it's truly warranted. Their stories are beyond anything I can imagine. IMO it's much more effective to point out the number of countries which have banned guns and what happened to them afterwards, showing a pattern. The Soviet Union, Cambodia, Germany, China, Uganda, Ottoman Turkey, Guatemala and Rwanda come to mind, all with tragic results.

 

[Zoogster]

The all powerful police state is coming, is already built up, and technology is just being connected to tie up loose ends. All those internet connections, cell phones towers etc will tie together in the largest organized survellience system the world has ever seen.

Everyone will be tracked and monitored all the time. Cell phones with microphones, cameras, motion sensors, thermometers, and tons of other sensors, vehicles with various communication technology and similar sensors, city cameras and permanent flying drones everywhere. All of these things are already being done in various portions of the nation.
AI will analyze everything done by everyone digitally, profiles will be created by AI, and intelligence agencies will review things and task out things to national and local law enforcement.
A lot of the attributes assigned to Germans were actually Prussian. The Prussians were quite honorable, but absolutely efficient and organized. What would eventually be the Gestapo and eyes and ears of the Nazis was first the Prussian Secret Police.

When the ends justify the means is quite interesting in the Soviet System. The Nazis get a lot of attention for the attrocities of Poland, but did you know the Soviets actually rounded up and killed off most people of Polish ancestry living in Russia before they invaded Poland, just because it was presumed they would have loyalties to Poland. They just went missing. They were arrested and executed in secret.
The Katyn Massacre gets some attention with the soviets killing most military and intelligence that were arrested or surrendered to the Soviets, one by one, as they thought they were just being interrogated. But a lot more actually happened:
Later the people that best resisted the Nazis in Poland or helped partizans or persecuted groups or were involved in other anti-nazi efforts were executed by the Soviets, because the Soviets figured if they were willing to work against the Nazis they posed a danger to the Soviets. Those willing to take up arms against government or support those that did were better off dead than even risking they do the same thing again.

Now the AI will flag you as better off imprisoned or dead for government interests. Who would have thought Terminator was on the right track and the machines would be the ones calling the shots.

 

[AlexanderA]

What is truly shocking is Hitler won first election by a very large margin.

Actually, he didn't. The Nazis tallied 44% of the vote in the March 1933 election. They were able to form a governing coalition because the opposition was divided.

 

[taliv]

I hope we never elect a monster like Adolf Hitler.

We have elected many over the years. They just never had complete control of the gov.

 

[40-82]

I think what Halbrook meant was that every liberal Democrat who wants to restrict guns isn't necessarily a Nazi. Unfortunate judgment in and of itself doesn't make a person evil.

A passage in Thucydides' History of the Peloponnesian War is credited with the concept that history repeats itself. That's not exactly what Thucydides meant. His was the first history the Greek world knew, and naturally he had to answer the question of why trouble to write about the past. The war between the Athenians and Spartans was over. Mostly, the players in the conflict were dead. Who should care about it now, some thirty years later when Thucydides was writing? His answer was that there were lessons to be learned from the affairs of the past. Everything wasn't chance or luck or done under the direction of the gods. Cause and effect did exist.

I suspect if someone alive at the time were to ask Thucydides if he believed the affairs of men were cyclical and everything that had happened was destined to repeat itself, his answer would be, "I don't know."

But if you believe as I do that human nature holds constants and that we're not completely different creatures from the ancient Greeks or any other culture out of the past, then there are things that can be learned from the way they conducted their affairs.

One of those lessons seems to me to be that the motivations of the person wanting to see me disarmed ultimately don't make much difference. The eventual results are the same.

 

[Zoogster]

One of those lessons seems to me to be that the motivations of the person wanting to see me disarmed ultimately don't make much difference. The eventual results are the same.

The motivations of those that create the ultimate methods of control do not have to match the motivations of those that use those same systems later in ways and for purposes well beyond what the creators intended. The precedents set in allowing them for good are precedents that make them available for bad.
I am sure a lot of good people in intelligence are perfecting methods that will be used to dominate and enslave everyone in the future, all with good intentions.

The purpose of arms as envisioned by the founders was to spread out the means of force so nobody could excessively bully anyone else. If everyone had the weapons of war, nobody was invulnerable to anyone else. Certainly the most capable would be the professional organized forces, but the much more numerous citizens could inflict damage.
As technology has progressed that balance has been erroding.
It also requires a unified culture of generally honorable and just people, and everyone having the means of death readily available is not a right that works well in a vacuum on its own. The alternative though can be much more organized and efficient evil. Governments have always killed or enslaved for their own purposes far more of their own people than criminals and bad actors.

 

[Palolosj]

Having parents who came here from Poland immediately after WW2 and having many family members who were victims of the Nazis, I'm hesitant to compare anyone to Nazi's unless it's truly warranted. Their stories are beyond anything I can imagine. IMO it's much more effective to point out the number of countries which have banned guns and what happened to them afterwards, showing a pattern. The Soviet Union, Cambodia, Germany, China, Uganda, Ottoman Turkey, Guatemala and Rwanda come to mind, all with tragic results.

I don't see people with "Western Marxist" (Neo-Marxist) tendencies as being evil or dangerous. I am certain we will be ok.

 

[Qweevox]

The all powerful police state is coming, is already built up, and technology is just being connected to tie up loose ends. All those internet connections, cell phones towers etc will tie together in the largest organized survellience system the world has ever seen.

Everyone will be tracked and monitored all the time. Cell phones with microphones, cameras, motion sensors, thermometers, and tons of other sensors, vehicles with various communication technology and similar sensors, city cameras and permanent flying drones everywhere. All of these things are already being done in various portions of the nation.
AI will analyze everything done by everyone digitally, profiles will be created by AI, and intelligence agencies will review things and task out things to national and local law enforcement.
A lot of the attributes assigned to Germans were actually Prussian. The Prussians were quite honorable, but absolutely efficient and organized. What would eventually be the Gestapo and eyes and ears of the Nazis was first the Prussian Secret Police.

When the ends justify the means is quite interesting in the Soviet System. The Nazis get a lot of attention for the attrocities of Poland, but did you know the Soviets actually rounded up and killed off most people of Polish ancestry living in Russia before they invaded Poland, just because it was presumed they would have loyalties to Poland. They just went missing. They were arrested and executed in secret.
The Katyn Massacre gets some attention with the soviets killing most military and intelligence that were arrested or surrendered to the Soviets, one by one, as they thought they were just being interrogated. But a lot more actually happened:
Later the people that best resisted the Nazis in Poland or helped partizans or persecuted groups or were involved in other anti-nazi efforts were executed by the Soviets, because the Soviets figured if they were willing to work against the Nazis they posed a danger to the Soviets. Those willing to take up arms against government or support those that did were better off dead than even risking they do the same thing again.

Now the AI will flag you as better off imprisoned or dead for government interests. Who would have thought Terminator was on the right track and the machines would be the ones calling the shots.

You're absolutely correct. It sounds crazy, and 20 years ago if you had mentioned it, I'd have said it's time for the tinfoil hat. But look around all the pieces are on the board. They just need a little more time and anyone who controls the government will have absolute power. The power that Mao, Stalin, and Hitler could only dream of. The kind of surveillance power that makes Big Brother in 1984 look blind by comparison.

All the pieces are already here, they just need to get a little better, and no will be able to escape its trap.

 

[Palolosj]

Well, the best thing is to accept, love everyone and learn to work together. If I practice this I expect to be ok.

 

[taliv]

You may be ok in the afterlife, but historically it is the well intentioned who have galactically jacked things up on earth and you are likely to NOT be ok in your remaining time on earth. I’m sure Hugo Chavez and the folks who voted him in wanted the best for the people.

 

[Palolosj]

You may be ok in the afterlife, but historically it is the well intentioned who have galactically jacked things up on earth and you are likely to NOT be ok in your remaining time on earth. I’m sure Hugo Chavez and the folks who voted him in wanted the best for the people.

I'm extremely low risk and will take precautions as certain events take place. For example, if Trump wins second term I expect to stay home for a while especially if he looses the popular vote. The opposition is sure to be angry, very angry.
If by accident I'm faced with protesters I will do what Shlomo Baum suggested join the protest only until I can exit safely. One always has to improvise.

 

[entropy]

I don't see people with "Western Marxist" (Neo-Marxist) tendencies as being evil or dangerous. I am certain we will be ok.

Power corrupts, and absolute power, which every socialist state has sought , corrupts absolutely. The reason Trump cannot be corrupted, because he is independently wealthy, is precisely the reason the left hates him. They cannot own him. Glad you're such an optimist, I am a realist- as in the old Russian joke: An optimist studies English, a pessimist studies Chinese, a realist studies the AK-47.

 

[edwardware]

"Such proponents are in no sense “Nazis,” any more than were the Weimar officials who promoted similar restrictions. And it would be a travesty to compare today’s situation to the horrors of Nazi Germany."

Nazism is a very narrow set of principles, and obviously doesn't even remotely apply to contemporary Western politics.

Totalitarianism is a much more useful category. The Nazis weren't dangerous because they were particularly Nazis; they were dangerous because they were Totalitarians, just like Mao, Pol Pot, Lenin, Stalin, etc.

Have a look-see at the Green New Deal, or the Democratic Party support for disarmament, and see if it isn't Totalitarian. Listen to the Left's language referring to the Deplorables, and see if it doesn't sounds like vaguely familiar dehumanization of the enemy prior to war.

 

[Pat Riot]

‘Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.’ (George Santayana-1905)
In 1948 Winston Churchill paraphrased the quote when he said “Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it.“ in a speech to the House of Commons. This became the more famous version...though I am sure this has been repeated through history many times (humor).

 

[boom boom]

FWIW, originally, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." by G. Santayana

https://bigthink.com/the-proverbial...-not-learn-history-doomed-to-repeat-it-really

 

[boom boom]

What is truly shocking is Hitler won first election by a very large margin. I find it amusing when they have the nerve to assign horrors by Germans during World War II to members of the Nazi Party, absurd. I always say German War crimes never Nazi War Crimes.

No, he did not.

"The last two democratic elections on 31 July 1932 and 6 November 1932, which were also called early with a view to securing a parliamentary majority for the presidential government headed by Franz von Papen (Centre), were held in a climate of economic depression and radicalisation. In both elections, the NSDAP emerged as the strongest party with 37.4% (230 seats) and 33.1% (196 seats) respectively. In the July election, it sent shock waves reverberating through the political landscape by more than doubling its number of votes; its relatively small loss of 4.3 percentage points in the November election did little to blunt the impact of the July vote. The KPD increased its share of the vote in both elections, achieving its best-ever result with 14.5% and 89 seats then topping it with 16.9% and 100 seats. With 319 out of 608 then 296 out of 584 seats, the Communists and National Socialists effectively had a joint power of veto in the Reichstag. The pro-Republic parties, by contrast, were further weakened. The SPD lost 3.9% of the vote in July and a further 1.2% in November, polling only 21.6% and 20.4%. In the July election, the two Liberal parties faded into political insignificance, the State Party falling by 1% to 2.8% and the DVP by 1.2% to 3.5%. The fact that the DVP rallied somewhat in November to win back 0.7 of a percentage point did not alter the overall picture.

The Centre had held its ground since 1928, and made a small gain of 0.7% to poll 12.5% in the July election, but the trend was reversed in November, when the Centre obtained 11.9% of the vote - almost exactly the same result as in 1930. The DNVP sustained a loss of 0.8% in the July election, obtaining 6.2% of the vote, but a gain of 2.7 percentage points in November brought its share of the vote to 8.9%, which was more than it had polled in 1930. The Reichstag election in November 1932 was the last democratic national election. By the time of the next elections to the Reichstag in March 1933, the electoral process was subject to the National Socialists' policy of repression and intimidation; in view of the numerous irregularities and infringements of rights that occurred, the election of 1933 cannot be regarded as truly democratic."

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/de-weimar-elections.htm

Thus, a majority of the folks in Germany did not vote for NSDAP in elections and Von Hindenburg beat Hitler by about the same amount in the Presidential election. Hindenburg had to ask NSDAP to try to form a government as it had a plurality of the seats in Parliament (more than other parties). Hitler became Chancellor with the support of the nationalist parties other than NSDAP as superior to the Socialist-Communist blocs and thus was enabled to issue emergency decrees that ended effective party competition subsequently and when the aged Hindenburg died, he assumed virtually all powers in government outside of perhaps the army for a time.

 

[GEM]

This is all very interesting but has wandered away from being directly related to firearms issues. Discussing the rise of Hilterian figures in a possible American future is not really for us as it gets too political.

Thanks for all the interesting history but closed.