Interesting Case (FOPA MG Ban)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Use what we need, after going to Knob Creek and seeing prices on everything it's time we take care of one of the most unjust laws ever passed (even though I have my gripes on the CPSC banning jarts).
 
That's a New Deal era case from when the Court was fighting FDR tooth and nail. The only Justices who would look on that one favorably would be the ones on our side already.
 
LAR-15 said:
Machine gun prices aren't fixed
Click to expand...

o_O???

A new MAC-10 submachinegun, for instance, would cost you about $300 + $200 tax stamp back in the early 80s. Now, the same firearm will cost you about 10 times that much!
An MP5 would cost you about $1.5k in the 80s. Now, it costs $16k.
An AK-47, among the cheapest assault rifle in the world, would cost you just $500 in the 80s. Now, that same rifle costs $12k.

The FOPA has clearly caused a ridiculous increase the price of machineguns (unless you're a ruling-class law-enforcement officer!). I would call this price fixing.
 
The FOPA has clearly caused a ridiculous increase the price of machineguns (unless you're a ruling-class law-enforcement officer!). I would call this price fixing.
Click to expand...

Well, it isn't price fixing.... You can call it that if you like, but its actually the exact opposite. It is a pretty clearcut example of the way markets react when a product becomes scare.

Price fixing is an agreement between business competitors to sell the same product or service at the same price.In general, it is an agreement intended to ultimately push the price of a product as high as possible, leading to profits for all the sellers...

The law of supply and demand states that in a competitive free market, the price for a good will move towards the level where supply and demand for that good are equal. Because the supply of Class III weapons is very small, and demand for this small supply is great, prices have risen. Its just the way the market works.

A mint-condition Mickey Mantle rookie card carries a high price to collectors of baseball cards, due in large part because of its rarity and the player's fame. Low supply, high demand... their isn't any conspiracy by Topps to set the price.

It's not price fixing, it is just capitalism red in tooth and claw.

Now, I will point ut that the laws do make the supply artifically low. But this still isn't price fixing.
 
An MP5 would cost you about $1.5k in the 80s. Now, it costs $16k.
An AK-47, among the cheapest assault rifle in the world, would cost you just $500 in the 80s. Now, that same rifle costs $12k.
Click to expand...

Not to nit pick, but you cannot find either of those for that price. $16k for an MP5? Try more like 30. An AK for 12? :rolleyes:
 
Not to nit pick, but you cannot find either of those for that price. $16k for an MP5? Try more like 30.
Click to expand...

No to nitpick, but his prices are in line with the current market.;)

Anyhow, it's not price fixing, as the Gov. doesn't set any prices. It's all free market.
 
$16k is right about midrange for mp5s right now, check the subguns.com classifieds.

As for the idea of "price fixing", it's not. The prices went up due to a larger demand than supply of machine guns (b/c of the registry being defunded). Capitalism at its finest.

No one is claiming price fixing now that original numbers matching MOPARs are going for six figures now; there's just a very small supply and a very big demand.
 
I like the way you think, but I don't believe this example would holdup. That’s ok because we have many other avenues to expose 922(o) as unconstitutional.
 
The FOPA has clearly caused a ridiculous increase the price of machineguns (unless you're a ruling-class law-enforcement officer!).
Click to expand...

More like the pawns of the ruling class. Give them just enough to do your bidding, yet dont let them completely into "the club".

SCOTUS said it's unconstitutional for the government to fix prices through any means.
Click to expand...

The gov doesnt hasnt fixed the price of machine guns. If you could find a seller of a registered pre-'86 machine gun for $1, and you pass the background check/get the tax stamp, the government couldnt do anything to stop the sale.
 
Stupid law ......with supply and demand.....

Capitalism does it's thing and prices sky-rocket...

Machineguns are "fixed" or "HARD TO OBTAIN" to those in the lower economic classes...

If you think that wasn't the ultimate intent of the law then your kidding yourself.

"16K for an MP5" LOL you mean a SEAR GUN and in what Quality I ask?

Try 18K-23K for a Nice to Mint MP5 (Sear or Push-Pin.) Give or take greed.

:fire::fire::fire::fire::fire:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You'd do better to use the court's decision in Miller to attack the FOPA ban because the USSC only upheld the NFA due to it being a revenue generation measure. Thus logically, the NFA registry is only legal so long as its purpose is to generate revenue. Closing the registry, violates that requirement.
 
Thus logically, the NFA registry is only legal so long as its purpose is to generate revenue. Closing the registry, violates that requirement.
Click to expand...

Thats the paradox... you can still buy/sell NFA items. The government is still collecting meager revenue from the occasional sale of a pre '86 machine gun, therefore claiming they havent totally ceased to collect taxes.
 
Its an excise tax, their are thousands of excise taxes on the books for events that happen very rarly, and their is no legal basis for the amount of the excise tax being very high compared to the value of the item. Heck, there is a pile of law that supports using the tax code to influence the publics behavior!

Excise taxes usually have one of two purposes: to raise revenue or to discourage particular behavior. Taxes such as those on sales of fuel, alcohol and tobacco are often justified on both grounds.

he cigarette excise tax varies by state and ranges from 7 cents per pack in South Carolina to $2.50 per pack in Rhode Island. The excise tax doubles or even triples the retail cost of cigarettes in some states... and is perfectly hunky-dory under the law.

The NFA puts a few hundred dollars in excise tax onto items that the market values in the thousands to tens of thousands range. We are never going to see the NFA repealed based on its taxation function, as it was one of the things specificly addressed in the Miller case... and the Court ruled it was just peachy as a revenune generating measure.

Yes, the tax was/is used to discourage you from buying a Class III weapon. Yes, the import band was intended to curtail the supply. Yes, limiting the supply has inflated costs...

No. None of that is against the law.
 
I am certain the gov't would make loads of money if they re-opened the MG market to civilians.

Most of us won't buy SBRs, SBSs, or AOWs, because they don't function differently from other firearms--they're just shorter or smoothbore.

But think about it like this. If you could pay $200 for a GLOCK select-fire kit, $50 for an M-16 autosear, or $50 for an HK sear, would you drop the $200 tax and purchase them? I know I would.
 
Crunker1337: How many of us crazy-broke-fully-auto-owning-want-to-bees are there out there? I guess I am saying the government could probably steal more money (for no reason) by increasing the price of cigarettes by $.25 a pack than by allowing us peeps to pay the tax on post 1986 machine guns.
 
"Crunker1337: How many of us crazy-broke-fully-auto-owning-want-to-bees are there out there?"

I'll assume that you're not insulting me or anyone else who likes f.as.

Well think about it, just about every person who owns any NFA weapon will buy a cheaper machinegun. The ability to use full-autos without getting a second mortgage on your house will bring more people into the world of machineguns and firearms in general. And then you'll have the ho-hum shooters giving f.as a try.
It would be very good for the firearms industry, gov't tax, and shooting in general.
 
Yeah, if full autos cost less then more people would buy them. That's more or less true of anything you care to name, I mean, if a Maserati cost less than a Mazda, I would have had a very different car when I was in high school.

The government doesn't fix the prices on Maseratis, they just bring a small supply to market and ask a high price. Which people willing pay if they wnt to buy the car.

At the gun show last weekend, someone was selling a M2 Browning machine gun for $17,500... and someone out there is willing to pay that price, or the seller is going to have to ask less. I don't recall the seller's name, but since they had a big banner and a stack of business cards advertising themselves as a Class III dealer, I'm going to guess they know how to price their products.

They could have sold that gun to me for $17 if they wanted to, but they knew that they could get $17,500 from somebody. That's not price fixing, no way, no how.
 
Thus logically, the NFA registry is only legal so long as its purpose is to generate revenue. Closing the registry, violates that requirement.
Click to expand...

This argument, if it worked, would only get us halfway there. It would force the feds to re-open the registry, but it wouldn't nullify the NFA.

Not that I'd do anything to slow such an argument, but aren't there some applicable legal attacks that would wholly dismantle the NFA?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

I
  • Locked
ex-felons are screwed, what about ex-mental patients?
2
Replies
27
Views
1K
JohnBT
J
K
  • Locked
9th Circuit: US v. Stewart (MG ban unconstitutional?)
2
Replies
37
Views
2K
artherd
A
M
  • Locked
The Supreme Court/Phone Record Privacy
Replies
2
Views
271
Bartholomew Roberts
B
T
  • Locked
UNITED STATES v. WHREN et al.
Replies
0
Views
425
TheFederalistWeasel
T
A
  • Locked
Machine-gun ban -- test cases
2 3
Replies
62
Views
4K
rdhood
R
Back
Top