Interesting conversation in the gun shop

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mopar92

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I walked in a little late, but these guys were talking about legal things... Basically, they wondered what it would take to by law, be able to modify their own guns to become machine guns... I thought it was interesting, so I googled around. I think it's a real big deal from what I have read. Others say, just get a license, tax stamp, and move on. The conversation started with the Akins Accelerator. Then morphed in to The John ? Norrell? full auto 10-22. So, what exactly would it take for a man to legally build a 10-22 fully automatic NOT FOR SALE... for private use only? Interesting subject to me..:confused:
 
I don't think posessing a class III would be enough to build it for in house purposes only...
 
Unless you built the gun prior to the legal cutoff of 1986, it is completely illegal for a civilian to modify a gun to fire fully automatically.

The only people who can legally do this are people with specially acquired federal firearms licenses which allow them to manufacture full-auto firearms that can then only be transferred to another full-auto manufacturer, or a legally-allowed entity such as a police department or security firm.
 
I am in TN.... this has peaked my interest now... I just want to learn about it... BATFE's website I couldnt find anything like that on there...
 
The "class 3" is the class of tax stamp you need to be a dealer in firearms.

To be a manufacturer of title 2 firearms, you have to be a second class citizen.
 
Would that stock for the 10/22 be legal or considered a machine gun. It is bumpfiring technically with no modification to the gun or trigger. It just makes the trigger bounce against your finger.
 
IN plain English? Does one need to have a standard FFL first, then get a Class III manf. stamp? I am a pilot, so would it be like a tailwheel endorsment? Thanks.
 
ATF said it was illegal... which in my opinion is mixed. Part of me says it's a device that DOES allow one pull of the trigger to fire multiple rounds... that is TRUE. The other parts says that you better make a belt loop illegal, because thats how I have bumpfired my AR when I was younger and into that crap. Oh, also, the thumb should be illegal too. Lets keep it on topic though. I want to know what steps I would need to take to be legally making my own full auto, not for sale or trade! It's got me thinking...
 
When people say "Class 3" they are typically (incorrectly I might add) referring to anything title 2 - machineguns, sbr/sbs/silencers.

The term "class 3" is defined as the type of special taxpayer you are. In this case, class 3 would be dealer. Since you are a pilot - class 3 would be akin to multi engine. You might have a pilots license, but you might not have multi.

If you are an FFL DEALER and you want to get into doing NFA sales - you get your class 3 SOT. If you are an FFL MANUFACTURER and you want to get into doing NFA sales and builds - you get your class 2 SOT.

Hope this helps.
 
That dumbed it down a bit for me... These guys are nuts. From what I have read on the internet, it seems as if it will take $5000 a year? Is that right?
 
NFA Title II manufacturer's licenses don't come cheap.

Also, the BATFE will shut you down if your intention in getting the license is so you can have machine guns for personal, rather than business, uses.
 
"Also, the BATFE will shut you down if your intention in getting the license is so you can have machine guns for personal, rather than business, uses. "

Thats the second thing I asked the guy.... I said they are too smart for you to try to beat the system!
 
In short, no you cannot make a semi-auto into a full auto. You would have to become a manufacturer of Class III weapons. There are no forms that you or I can fill out to be legally allowed to create a full auto.
 
There's a sticky on this: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=507319

Justin hit the highlights for you.

You want to build machine guns and/or convert normal "Title I" semi-autos into full-autos, you first have to have one of the versions of Federal Firearms License that cover being a manufacturer. Then you have to become a "Special Occupational Tax, Class 02" manufacturer of "Title II" NFA-regulated items. You can't do this (either of those things) for your own kicks and giggles -- but must be "in the business of." Any new machine guns you make can only be transferred to government agencies or to other SOTs.

(Class 03 SOTs are dealers in NFA Title II weapons like machine guns, but they don't get carte blanche to keep in inventory whatever machine guns they want. Look into "LEO demonstration letters" for more information.)

...

The Atkins Accelerator is a classic example of the BATFE changing its interpretations of the law mid-stream. The Accelerator stock was really just a fancy way of bump-firing, and the ATF gave their blessing for that design. However, after some were sold, they changed their minds and re-interpreted the design as a Title II item.
 
I know I'll get some nasty responses but civilians have no real reason to have a machine gun. They'd be a blast to play with but if they were in the wrong hands, what a disaster could occur. As Americans, I know we don't liked to be told what we can and can't do. Just look at that situations in the big border cities of Mexico. I'm sure there are many illegal machine guns out there but if you can't solve you problem with a semiauto pistol or rifle it's too late. Unless it's a .22 machine gun who could afford to shoot the thing. Just my opinion guys!
JT
 
I know I'll get some nasty responses but civilians have no real reason to have a machine gun.
Click to expand...
I don't think you'll get any "nasty" responses (this is THR!) but a lot of contrary ones.

If you think back to the original purpose of the 2nd Amendment, it speaks more to a citizen's right to bear arms similar to those wielded by a military force than to any right to a hunting or target type weapon. So, from a purely logical standpoint, civilians should have MORE rights to own machine guns than "Title I" firearms.

What might happen "in the wrong hands" doesn't enter into it now, and never has.
 
From what I have read on the internet, it seems as if it will take $5000 a year? Is that right?
Click to expand...
The application fee for a Type 07 FFL (firearm manufacturer) is $150. The license is valid for three years.
The SOT is $500.00 per year if your total gross receipts are less than $500,000.00 per year, otherwise the tax is $1000.00 per year.
ITAR registration is $2250.00 per year.
Throw in liability insurance, machines and tooling, raw materials, office equipment, computers and software, and other normal costs of doing business (utilities, rent, legal fees, etc) and it gets spendy real fast.
 
I, personally, would not want to draw the attention of the Feds in such a manner. ATF doesn't have much of a sense of humor.

A friend of mine found that out the hard way a few years back.

Besides, just my opinion, but isn't ammo expensive enough at the semi-auto rate of fire,

without going to all the bother and expense of full auto?

I'm already spending a small fortune at the range...

I'll just be happy to get accurate with what I've got, without getting too fancy.
 
I know I'll get some nasty responses but civilians have no real reason to have a machine gun. They'd be a blast to play with but if they were in the wrong hands, what a disaster could occur. As Americans, I know we don't liked to be told what we can and can't do. Just look at that situations in the big border cities of Mexico. I'm sure there are many illegal machine guns out there but if you can't solve you problem with a semiauto pistol or rifle it's too late. Unless it's a .22 machine gun who could afford to shoot the thing. Just my opinion guys!
JT
Click to expand...

Another opnion with nothing to do with the topic.

An automobile or how about box cutters in the wrong hands have caused more “disasters” than machine guns legally owned by citizens.

Do you have any knowledge of Mexico’s gun laws? We are talking about legal guns here not illegal guns.

It has nothing to do with problem solving, 99.9% of my shooting is for fun.

I can afford to shoot full auto, if you can’t that’s ok but don’t use that as a reason to tell me I shouldn’t have them.


What you should be more concerned with is the “foot in the door” stuff that goes on with arguments like yours. Who NEEDS a machine gun, silencer, short rifle or shotgun, magazines that hold more than 10 rounds, 50 BMG, semi auto, pistol, rifle, shotgun, bow and arrow, sword, knife, rocks? Most people have a spot on the list where they say, whoa that’s too far. I believe simply infringing upon my freedom is too far.
 
The legality of bump-stocks, like the Atkins Accelerator, will have to be challenged in court. Using a belt loop or a shoe string to bump fire is legally fine... for now, but a stock that is specifically designed to mimic full auto fire, crosses some imaginary line that the ATF conjured up. Oddly though, trigger activators that are specifically designed to produce the same effect are okay. That's the bureau for you.
 
Mopar92,

Most if not all the responses here make a valid point but your question was if I'm right, what would it take to build a full auto 10/22 for personal use & still be legal. I'm assuming you don't want to do it the "Expensive" way. Brother in arms I'm sorry, I don't believe there is a "Cheap" way. Sure there's devices, stocks etc that will give you what your looking for but to be "Legal", the costs are insane & not worth it for a 10/22. Look at it like this, the FFL, paperwork, stamp etc is in the thousands. Unless you have the smithy abilities, a drop in SEAR alone for an AR can be form $10,000-$18,000. These costs are there just to keep average "Good guy" from having the means. Is it right, no. Is full auto fun, HELL YES!!! Is it neccesary? That's a thread I'm sure has been argued to death & I'm not going to be the dumba$$ Newbie to start it again but IMO I don't believe I should be told what I can & can't have regardless.

Example, I may or may not be apart of a group of guys, all good friends & family that enjoys this sport. One day they all get together to go do some shooting in the hills. At some point as I understand the story, they all pull out their AR's, load up, get in a line & proceed to bumpfire(thumb in belt loop). I heard it sounded like, I'm sure you get the point. The next day it was heard that the area was covered with "Black" cars & SUV's for a couple hrs.

My point, unfortunatly we have some BS laws for whatever reason. Stay out of the "Gray" area.
 
These costs are there just to keep average "Good guy" from having the means.
Click to expand...

False.

Finite supply and expanding demand drive prices up. There is no conspiracy to increase NFA costs out of the realm on the average man.
 
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