interesting, ever more interesting, even for San Francisco.

Status
Not open for further replies.

alan

Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2002
Messages
2,601
Location
sowest pa.
Judge to Hear Air ID Challenge

By Julia Scheeres | Also by this reporter Page 1 of 1

02:00 AM Jan. 18, 2003 PT

San Francisco -- A U.S. District Court judge agreed to hear a challenge to an airline requirement that forces passengers to show identification before boarding a plane, despite a motion by the government and two airlines to dismiss it.

John Gilmore, the co-founder of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, has sued United Airlines, Southwest Airlines and Attorney General John Ashcroft, alleging that the ID requirement stems from a "secret law" that violates his right to anonymous travel within the United States.

Story Tools

Story Images
Click thumbnails for full-size image:



See also
Disputed Air ID Law May Not Exist
Dutch Prepare for Hacker Invasion
Adobe Tries to Quell Protest
ACLU Spooked by Domestic Spying
Everybody's got issues in Politics
Today's Top 5 Stories
Flying in the Face of Infertility
Curtains for Digital Show Sharing
Judge to Hear Air ID Challenge
Science Aids Guatemalan 'Miracle'
High Hopes for New AOL Chairman
The case stems from two July 4 incidents in which Gilmore refused to show his ID at San Francisco and Oakland airports before boarding cross-country flights. Southwest refused to let him board without identifying himself, while United said he could board if he submitted to a hand search, which he refused.

Gilmore, a longtime libertarian, arrived at the federal building wearing Birkenstocks and a purple suit jacket. Pinned to the lapel, was a button with the words "suspected terrorist" superimposed over the shape of an airplane.

"If there's a law that requires the public to show an ID, we ought to know about it," he said after the hearing. He maintains that the mere demand for an ID is an unreasonable requirement that violates the Fourth Amendment.

His attorney, William Simpich, argued before Judge Susan Illston that the requirement that Americans show their ID for domestic travel was the equivalent of creating an internal passport that allows authorities to monitor people's movements and activities in the United States. Additionally, he argued that United Airlines' requirement that Gilmore either show his ID or be frisked violated Fourth Amendment protections against unreasonable searches.

Justice Department Attorney Joseph Lobue argued that the ID rule was necessary to ensure aviation safety.

"The only way airlines can compare passenger lists with terrorists is by asking for an ID," said Lobue, adding that searches to prevent passengers from boarding with weapons were not unreasonable, and therefore did not violate the Fourth Amendment.

Gilmore said that before Sept. 11, he flew several times without showing an ID, and that he fears the government is building a "dragnet" to track the movements of innocent citizens.

Brian Kalt, a constitutional law expert at Michigan State University, opined that Gilmore's Fourth Amendment argument would fail, especially after Sept. 11, when searches of airline passengers became more reasonable.

"Gilmore might have a stronger argument about the alleged secret regulation," Kalt said. "There are statutory requirements about publicizing rules that affect people's rights, and assuming hypothetically that his claims are true, these requirements might have been violated. But the remedy is not to overturn the rules, it is just to publicize them."



Have a comment on this article? Send it

More stories written by Julia Scheeres




Page 1 of 1

Related Stories
Librarians Split on Sharing Info Jan. 16, 2003
Year in Privacy: Citizens Lose Dec. 30, 2002
Terrorists on the Net? Who Cares? Dec. 20, 2002
Warm Party for a Code Group Sep. 13, 2002
Getting the FDA Hooked on Ecstasy Dec. 10, 2001



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wired News: Staff | Contact Us | Advertising
We are translated daily into Spanish, Portuguese, and Japanese
© Copyright 2003, Lycos, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Your use of this website constitutes acceptance of the Lycos Privacy Policy and Terms & Conditions
Note: Wired News content is accessible to all versions of every browser. However, this browser may not support basic Web standards, preventing the display of our site's design details. We support the mission of the Web Standards Project in the campaign encouraging users to upgrade their browsers. (Read More)



Report this p
 
Stipulate for the moment that it is unConstitutional for the government at any level to ask for ID.

A person has the right to ask. A corporation, in law, is a person. Southwest Airlines is a corporation.

You want on my land? Tell me who you are.

You want to charter me to fly you somewhere in my little 172? Tell me your name.

Don't like it? Don't fly. Last I hear, Shiverlay wuz still sellin' cars.

Art
 
Southwest Airlines is a corporation.
Nyet. Not if Southwest Airlines is taking taxpayer money in the form of gov't subsidies. That makes them an arm of the federal government, same as Amtrak and the USPS.

If Southwest Airlines were a private corporation, they would be within their rights to ask for ID. However, it would still be illegal for the government to require them to show ID (which, I suspect, is the real impetus behind Gilmore's lawsuit.)

- Chris
 
Not if Southwest Airlines is taking taxpayer money in the form of gov't subsidies
I guess that this would make EVERY FARMER in america a goverment employee also since farms are subsidized?
 
Jeeper,

Now you catchin' on. By the way, farmers may receive gov mandated subsidies but it is still our money they are receiving which makes those subsidies amount to nothing more than welfare to businesses.

Chipper
 
guess that this would make EVERY FARMER in america a goverment employee also since farms are subsidized?

And most college students (student loans), disabled vets (the VA), recievers of Medicaid, GUN MAnUFACTURERS (R&D money)...


WildmytinhatisstayingonAlaska
 
Disagree with analysis that if SW takes gubmint money it becomes a branch of the federal gubmint - or anybody else for that matter. Just because Mom gets SSI from the gubmint doesn't make her a snitch for the FBI or the eyes of the NSA. Rather, a condition precedent to the granting of money is that the recipient agrees to perform certain tasks asked of by the grantor.
 
Gilmore, a longtime libertarian, arrived at the federal building wearing Birkenstocks and a purple suit jacket. Pinned to the lapel, was a button with the words "suspected terrorist" superimposed over the shape of an airplane.
This guy was obviously looking for trouble and he found it. I don't disagree with their policy of checking I.D.'s, but I doubt terrorists will be carrying their "Terrorist's Local 502" union I.D.'s.
 
One problem I have with them asking for ID's is the fact they have no way to validate the ID. Example, if I am asked to show my ID at the airport, and I show my drivers license, there is no way for the airline to check with the issuing state to see if my DL is in fact a valid ID and not a fake. Who knows, I could have taken someone's license and put my picture in their place.

Any tango that decides to pull a hit and goes through all the trouble of getting a ticket and such to do in a plane is not going to give their real name and ID. More than likely they will have fake ID's and or passports. That is the norm for Middle Eastern terrorists. None of their ID's will have their real personal info on them. So again, I ask what good will it do to look at a picture ID?
 
Southwest, or any other corporation for that matter, is a person for respects to legal proceedings or constitutional analysis whether they receive any money from the government or not. AmTrak is a federally owned and operated corporation. Southwest is privately owned and operated.
 
I don't think the airlines could really care less about checking IDs. Really. In the end, I think they just want full seats when the plane lifts off. I have thought for some time now that the true reason they ask for ID is so they know who was on the plane if it crashes.

Kind of hard to ID someone from a match box full of body parts.
 
Dave, you may well be correct, but that's not the issue. It's whether or not somebody can rightfully ask who you are, as a condition of their providing a service.

I imagine we all know that it has long been held in the courts that police have the right to ask for ID from job-related curiosity, although not the right to detain.

Art
 
Art:

Re all the techno/legal aspects, the following comes to mind. SouthWest or whomever the airline is took my money, when I bought the ticket, nothing required but cash or a credit card. By the way, I remember when a personal check was o.k. too, and yes, Iam old, or is it elderly? Also, if I were a terrorist, I would have righteous appearing id up the wazoo, what would you like to see sir, I will dig it out for you.

Couple of years ago, before 9/11, my wife and I were going on a trip, we got out the airport and whilst checking in for our US Air flight, found that my wife's stuff was fine, but I was told that mine wasn't, despite the fact that I had one of their electronic tickets in hand, I wasn't "in their system". I politely advised them to look again. Anyhow, we then got to the "government issued i.d. crap", the counter person asking for, actually demanding my drivers license. I declined to show her one, offering instead my concealed carry permit, with photo, issued by The State Of Pennsylvania, same outfit that does drivers licenses.

She sort of looked at me strangely, asking "if I wanted to start a debate", to which I replied NO, but that I had showed her "state issued i.d.", which was what she was going to get, and that if that wasn't sufficient, then she needed to get a supervisor to the scene. Mind, it was o.k. for them to loose my reservation, but I was supposed to jump through all their stupid hoops.

I might be harded headed, stiff necked, or just plain dumb, but I thought that an airline was the proverbial "service organization", since they don't manufacture anything that one would notice, otherthan, for instance, over sold flights, if you consider that activity as "manufacturing". I must be getting bitter. Sorry for the rant.
 
The 4th Amendment doesn't apply here.

In fact corporations and people are not subject to the limitations of the Bill of Rights. If you want to hop a ride in my car, I may ask for a lot more than a picture ID! Point is, I don't have to respect your privacy or put up with your religious beliefs (esp. if you are a Christian Scientist).

The BoR is about what the government can't do. I, and Southwest Airlines, can do whatever we want. If you don't like the way we do business, then go away.

I wonder if he will get them to sort out the law that the airlines have to check ID. As far as I know it was an FAA regulation, which, as we all know, can write all the unconstitutional rules they want. Just like the Forest Service, FEMA, the EPA and the FDA.

madkiwi
 
Madwiki:

What you say about your automobile is most certainly on point, as it is, YOUR CAR. With the airlines, I believe that the thing is somewhat different, as I mentioned in a previous post, you might care to read it.

When I purchased the ticket, this corporation, happily took my money, and there wasn't the slightest inquiry as to I.D. They took my cash, or credit card, they might even have said THANK YOU too. Also, if I were actually a terrorist, I would have all sorts of I.D., or should I refer to "the I word" in all it's varied forms, wouldn't I?

As to what you wrote, excerpted below, "I wonder if he will get them to sort out the law that the airlines have to check ID. As far as I know it was an FAA regulation, which, as we all know, can write all the unconstitutional rules they want. Just like the Forest Service, FEMA, the EPA and the FDA", I submit that the law, very badly needs to be "sorted out", and that phrase puts what might be an overly polite face on the thing.
 
A private business has every right to do whatever they want.
If they required you to do 50 sit-ups and learn their secret handshake, they should be able to.
However: The .gov has no inhibitions about sticking their nose into the airlines business when fat people are required to purchase two seats.
Unfortunately there are no set rules when it comes to private vs. public rights and responsibilities.
As a business owner, I should be ABLE to ask whatever I want of my customers. They have the choice to either use my services or not.
 
80fl wrote in part: "A private business has every right to do whatever they want".

Can they practice DISCRIMINATION?? I thought that STATUTE precluded such activity.

I think that the following will come to pass. Corporate and governmental idiots will turn out to have overplayed their hand, especially when and if it turns out that real terrorists pull off another stunt.

By the way, have any airline pilots been armed yet, or are the bureaucrats in and out of government still in the process of dreaming up appropriate "regulations"?? Have they even started??
 
Mom and dad paid good money to Southwest to fly the family to Texas when I was a kid. Is SouthWest an arm of the Gwinn family?

:rolleyes:
 
About time!

I've been hoping someone would have the motivation & resources to do this. I'd do it, but I don't know the legal process.

This IS a 4th Amendment issue - ever since the feds took over airport security. At this point, the airlines don't have a choice. Pre-9/11, there might have been an argument about private companies' right to demand ID, but not now.
 
As far as I'm concerned, the owner of a private business does have the right to turn away anyone he wants for any reason he wants. Some reasons are currently illegal, but that has no bearing whatsoever on his rights. It just means that the law is wrong so there are bad consequences to exercising those rights.

The so-called "civil rights" laws are as bad in many ways as the gun laws.
 
Yes, the Government has abrogated your rights already, and you are not allowed to discriminate. (In spite of the freedom of association rights you thought you had)

Lets put it this way. You can associate with whoever you want to. You have the right to discriminate all the way to pergatory. The government cannot force you to marry someone you don't want to, even if you published an editorial that said the only reason was that person was not your ethnicity. (Thereby meeting the offical definition of discrimination and tehn some)

However, I recently read that in Minnesota or Michigan (can't remember exactly where) the state's Supreme Court ruled that a woman has to pay damages to a lesbian woman that she refused to accept as a room-mate (she advertised room for rent). :what: By that measure, you cannot advertise to share a house and not accept anyone that shows up at your door. If you are a fundamentalist Christian male, you HAVE to accept the gay man that shows up if you can't find another good reason to say no than "No way, you are gay".

I'm sorry, as morally reprehensible as discrimination is, you have a human right to associate with whom you please. Governments are not (rather should not) be in the position of enforcing moral edicts, especially ones they make up.

madkiwi
 
Alan, I don't disagree with you. But the issue is whether or not a service provider has the *right* to demand ID before providing the service. It's not a question of *should* or whether or not it's bad marketing or off-putting to customers.

Remember that airports are built with tax dollars. The governments involved--city, state, federal--can require that airlines request ID as a condition of use of the facility.

Whether or not I agree or disagree is irrelevant. If a court says some stupidity is Constitutional, there's somebody with a gun and a badge to back it up.

But the ID deal is no different than "No shirt, no shoes, no service."

Art
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top