mbs357
Member
It is the ultimate martial arts maneauver.
Interesting robbery tactic
- Thread starter Preacherman
- Start date
- Status
Jenrick
Member
I'd the "correct" response would depend on several factors. First off how far away are you when the guy exposes the weapon? Secondly is his hand on the weapon or is it out of position to draw? Third what is the backstop for the target?
I'd say the conditions needed to draw and fire would amount to: Close enough to hit the guy accurately (this is according to jury standards, since you'd have to articulate that he would have as good a chance of hitting you in your opinion), so call it below 10 yds. His hand on or near the weapon (in some states, TX, FL, this probably wouldn't be neccesary, but in others you'd need to display an "immeadiate threat to life"). A soild backstop that you KNOW will stop a bullet (1' concrete siding for instance), so you don't have to worry about a deflecting round hitting someone else.
I feel that if your too far away to hit accurately, then run/retreat. If the guys weapon is not readily accessable, then by all means draw. If you shoot thought you may have trouble in court justifying the shot (though if he goes for his weapon, well then by all means fire). The solid backstop (especially if specifically mentioned in court) would help undermine any arguement of reckless behavior etc. Also it'll help you sleep well at night, since you won't have to deal with possibly sending an innocent to the morgue or hospital.
Now some states are going to say you should have given him the money and retreated, then called the cops etc. They do have a point that you probably could have avoided a shooting, however a good lawyer could point out that (as previously mentioned in this thread) a lot of robbers shoot their victims regardless of how things go down.
-Jenrick
I'd say the conditions needed to draw and fire would amount to: Close enough to hit the guy accurately (this is according to jury standards, since you'd have to articulate that he would have as good a chance of hitting you in your opinion), so call it below 10 yds. His hand on or near the weapon (in some states, TX, FL, this probably wouldn't be neccesary, but in others you'd need to display an "immeadiate threat to life"). A soild backstop that you KNOW will stop a bullet (1' concrete siding for instance), so you don't have to worry about a deflecting round hitting someone else.
I feel that if your too far away to hit accurately, then run/retreat. If the guys weapon is not readily accessable, then by all means draw. If you shoot thought you may have trouble in court justifying the shot (though if he goes for his weapon, well then by all means fire). The solid backstop (especially if specifically mentioned in court) would help undermine any arguement of reckless behavior etc. Also it'll help you sleep well at night, since you won't have to deal with possibly sending an innocent to the morgue or hospital.
Now some states are going to say you should have given him the money and retreated, then called the cops etc. They do have a point that you probably could have avoided a shooting, however a good lawyer could point out that (as previously mentioned in this thread) a lot of robbers shoot their victims regardless of how things go down.
-Jenrick
geekWithA.45
Moderator Emeritus
Preach, I don't know that this is new.
Few muggings come straight out of the blue. Many have some sort of preliminary con game designed to get you to lower your guard and admit the assaillant into your inner sanctum.
Because this is fairly well known in some circles, it contributes a _lot_ to the warriness with which strangers treat each other, and societal alienation.
Few muggings come straight out of the blue. Many have some sort of preliminary con game designed to get you to lower your guard and admit the assaillant into your inner sanctum.
Because this is fairly well known in some circles, it contributes a _lot_ to the warriness with which strangers treat each other, and societal alienation.
sturmruger
Member
What an interesting hook. This crook must be smarter then your average street thug. I will have to remember that the vanity plates might be a bad idea.
TallPine
Member
Well, I guess I would just get all scared ("you bet - don't shoot me man!") and reach for my wallet in my right hip pocket ...
Oops, I'm sorry ... that isn't my wallet
Really, I don't know that many people. I would not go up to a stranger like that in the first place, even if he called my name. Say "hi" and keep walking, or stand back and say "excuse me - do I know you?"
Oops, I'm sorry ... that isn't my wallet
Really, I don't know that many people. I would not go up to a stranger like that in the first place, even if he called my name. Say "hi" and keep walking, or stand back and say "excuse me - do I know you?"
I think many of you are being overly cautious. A displayed gun + a verbal threat to use it is felony armed robbery. You would be justified in shooting even if you were carrying illegally.
If he wasn't already touching his gun, your draw action would probably beat his draw reaction. I would bet you would catch him completely by surprise.
If he wasn't already touching his gun, your draw action would probably beat his draw reaction. I would bet you would catch him completely by surprise.
Hemicuda
member
ME? i'd have just reached twards my right rear pocket... unfortunately for the would be robber, directly above said pocket resides a handgun... all the robber would get was 2 to the chest and 1 to the head... and then nobody else would ever need to worry about him mugging them again...
the words the bg said and the handgun in the waistband being showed in that manner makes it a legal shoot... and a nice invitation for me to do so...
the words the bg said and the handgun in the waistband being showed in that manner makes it a legal shoot... and a nice invitation for me to do so...
Spreadfire Arms
Member
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 1,312
jenrick stated:
"I'd the "correct" response would depend on several factors. First off how far away are you when the guy exposes the weapon? Secondly is his hand on the weapon or is it out of position to draw?"
how far away can a pistol be "deadly"? so you're saying if the guy is 25 yds away he's not a threat with a pistol? i think not. what is the difference in time to go from hand off the weapon to full draw and fire? less than 2 seconds?
"I'd say the conditions needed to draw and fire would amount to: Close enough to hit the guy accurately (this is according to jury standards, since you'd have to articulate that he would have as good a chance of hitting you in your opinion), so call it below 10 yds. His hand on or near the weapon (in some states, TX, FL, this probably wouldn't be neccesary, but in others you'd need to display an "immeadiate threat to life"). A soild backstop that you KNOW will stop a bullet (1' concrete siding for instance), so you don't have to worry about a deflecting round hitting someone else."
That is a subjective distance. guys who practice alot can hit a human sized target easily at 25 yds or greater. a guy who hasn't shot in a long time may not hit a human at 10 yds. that is a very subjective standard that i do not think is used by the grand jury in Travis County, which I believe you are in also. i think you may mean not being perceived as reckless such that you are unnecessarily endangering others. which includes the backstop issue.
"If the guys weapon is not readily accessable, then by all means draw. If you shoot thought you may have trouble in court justifying the shot (though if he goes for his weapon, well then by all means fire). The solid backstop (especially if specifically mentioned in court) would help undermine any arguement of reckless behavior etc. Also it'll help you sleep well at night, since you won't have to deal with possibly sending an innocent to the morgue or hospital."
In that situation, I wouldn't draw and hold him at bay. Look at the setting. A public place with a lot of people can mean a nasty gunfight, a hostage, or him fleeing into the mall with too many innocents. You're not the police. You're a citizen with a CHL. this is what the CHL law is designed for. you're not trained to hold a guy at bay until the cops arrive. you're not trained to order him into high-risk prone or disarm him.
exhibiting the firearm with the verbalization of a robbery is an armed robbery. i would not advise a CHL holder (private citizen) to hold a bad guy at bay. he/she is not trained to do this.
"I'd the "correct" response would depend on several factors. First off how far away are you when the guy exposes the weapon? Secondly is his hand on the weapon or is it out of position to draw?"
how far away can a pistol be "deadly"? so you're saying if the guy is 25 yds away he's not a threat with a pistol? i think not. what is the difference in time to go from hand off the weapon to full draw and fire? less than 2 seconds?
"I'd say the conditions needed to draw and fire would amount to: Close enough to hit the guy accurately (this is according to jury standards, since you'd have to articulate that he would have as good a chance of hitting you in your opinion), so call it below 10 yds. His hand on or near the weapon (in some states, TX, FL, this probably wouldn't be neccesary, but in others you'd need to display an "immeadiate threat to life"). A soild backstop that you KNOW will stop a bullet (1' concrete siding for instance), so you don't have to worry about a deflecting round hitting someone else."
That is a subjective distance. guys who practice alot can hit a human sized target easily at 25 yds or greater. a guy who hasn't shot in a long time may not hit a human at 10 yds. that is a very subjective standard that i do not think is used by the grand jury in Travis County, which I believe you are in also. i think you may mean not being perceived as reckless such that you are unnecessarily endangering others. which includes the backstop issue.
"If the guys weapon is not readily accessable, then by all means draw. If you shoot thought you may have trouble in court justifying the shot (though if he goes for his weapon, well then by all means fire). The solid backstop (especially if specifically mentioned in court) would help undermine any arguement of reckless behavior etc. Also it'll help you sleep well at night, since you won't have to deal with possibly sending an innocent to the morgue or hospital."
In that situation, I wouldn't draw and hold him at bay. Look at the setting. A public place with a lot of people can mean a nasty gunfight, a hostage, or him fleeing into the mall with too many innocents. You're not the police. You're a citizen with a CHL. this is what the CHL law is designed for. you're not trained to hold a guy at bay until the cops arrive. you're not trained to order him into high-risk prone or disarm him.
exhibiting the firearm with the verbalization of a robbery is an armed robbery. i would not advise a CHL holder (private citizen) to hold a bad guy at bay. he/she is not trained to do this.
Jenrick
Member
Oh I agree that a handgun is deadly for well over 25yds, also I agree that it can be deployed in less then 2 seconds. What I was refering to was that the 10yd mark is to me about the decision distance for using a pistol (for me mind you). That's the limit to where I feel I can assure hits on a man sized target under combat conditions. Also I figure anything further then 10yds from a mall entrance will put me among vechiles and other hard cover, giving me other options. That choice of distance was merely my personal "go for cover rather then shoot it out distance".
BTW you are quiet correct that a grand jury in Travis county wouldn't use that as a standard. It would be the normal in fear for life and property bit.
I agree that drawing and not shooting creates the potential for more problems. However I would find it difficult (moralely) to draw and fire if he was not going for his weapon/already had it. However I would have no problem firing if he attempts to flee, take a hostage, etc. At that point I feel that he is a danger to myself and others by his continued action. Overall I would agree with you that when the weapon comes out you should be in a situation where you ARE making the shot, not merely where you COULD be shooting.
-Jenrick
mbs357
Member
This thread worries me a bit.
Dad's GF has vanity plate with her first name on it. It's a bit spelled different for a humor factor or to maximize space, but it's readable. I'll have to let him know about this.
Dad's GF has vanity plate with her first name on it. It's a bit spelled different for a humor factor or to maximize space, but it's readable. I'll have to let him know about this.
People can be pretty easily maneuvered some times.
I remember one time in college I was coming to sit at a lunch table with some friends and walked in on a conversation about something I'd heard about before. Made a comment on it, was accused of having psychic powers, said yep, I'm psychic.
Girl I'd been doing some flirting with at the time, and whose jeans had been gapping a bit in the back as I approached the table, said "yeah sure, me too".
"Oh really?", I replied. "So what color underwear am I wearing?"
Like I said, this was college, and we had flirted before. She guessed, and was wrong, but sure enough, just as I'd planned, she came back with "Oh yeah, so what color underwear am I wearing, huh?"
Make brief meditative face, small smile, and say "Black. Kinda silky."
Walked right into that one.
I remember one time in college I was coming to sit at a lunch table with some friends and walked in on a conversation about something I'd heard about before. Made a comment on it, was accused of having psychic powers, said yep, I'm psychic.
Girl I'd been doing some flirting with at the time, and whose jeans had been gapping a bit in the back as I approached the table, said "yeah sure, me too".
"Oh really?", I replied. "So what color underwear am I wearing?"
Like I said, this was college, and we had flirted before. She guessed, and was wrong, but sure enough, just as I'd planned, she came back with "Oh yeah, so what color underwear am I wearing, huh?"
Make brief meditative face, small smile, and say "Black. Kinda silky."
Walked right into that one.
Island Beretta
Member
Nomadboi: did that kill your chances or improved them 
Mr. Ou has a good handle on the situation. There are too many internet lawyers who have been horrified into bizarre convolutions over what a deadly threat might be. Someone threatening you with a weapon present is certainly one.
Anyway, met Mr. Ou at the gun show. Nice guy - hiya doing?
Anyway, met Mr. Ou at the gun show. Nice guy - hiya doing?
Flip the situation around- if you flash your gun at someone and ask them to do something they wouldn't normally want to do, would you expect to be charged with threatening deadly force?
Unless your lawyers are pretty damn good, you probably would be...
Unless your lawyers are pretty damn good, you probably would be...
Spreadfire Arms
Member
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Messages
- 1,312
doing good GEM! are you going to be at the Austin show next weekend?
Another thing not to do
is keep your drivers lic or other ID with your name and address in a window pocket in your wallet. When you open your wallet at the store anybody standing behind you can read your name and address. I think this is especially bad for women. You go out into the parking lot and the BG calls out your name. He says "I'm your neighbor, I live around the corner on XX Street. This allows him to close to you and lowers your guard.
is keep your drivers lic or other ID with your name and address in a window pocket in your wallet. When you open your wallet at the store anybody standing behind you can read your name and address. I think this is especially bad for women. You go out into the parking lot and the BG calls out your name. He says "I'm your neighbor, I live around the corner on XX Street. This allows him to close to you and lowers your guard.
beerslurpy
member
This is one of those situations where accidentally pulling your gun out instead of your wallet would be useful. I think half a dozen hollow points in the torso would do the trick. Yay for stand your ground.
And yeah, "monkey stealing a peach" has awesome stopping power, but you better not lose the fight. Also I dont think it would be very effective against someone with baggy pants or someone who is standing with his legs close together. Better to just shoot them in the nuts.
And yeah, "monkey stealing a peach" has awesome stopping power, but you better not lose the fight. Also I dont think it would be very effective against someone with baggy pants or someone who is standing with his legs close together. Better to just shoot them in the nuts.
peacefuljeffrey
member
Jenrick,
Which states are going to say that you should have given the money and retreated and called the cops when you were the victim of an armed robbery?
I'm glad you made the realization you stated at the end. No state has the right to tell you that you should have counted on the idea that someone who would ROB you would not also SHOOT you once he got what he wanted from you.
Beerslurpy,
Please remember that if Gov. Bush does sign the "Stand Your Ground" bill into law (and it is said that he will), it is not scheduled to go into effect until OCTOBER.
Don't lose your head until then.
-Jeffrey
Guys(and gals);
A display of a pistol, and a statement of give me your money or you will be shot constitutes a forcible felony in any state of the union. This means you may use deadly force to defend yourself or another from death or serious bodily harm(but not necessarily just to capture the offender).
Any further discussion is simply about the ability to do so effectively.
21 feet, 7 yards, that is the distance that a person armed with an edged weapon can close with you and inflict a lethal wound before you can react and shoot. If it is so with a knife, it is a no brainer with a firearm-the guy dosen't even have to move an inch!
As to the unarmed combat gurus out there, been there done that. Punch a guy with a pistol in the nose? Sheeesh, you must be real good at punching(and bulletproof).
Only you on the spot can decide all of the variables that have been posed in this thread, the decision to fight or flee, respond or take cover, attack or defend, are going to be made then and there.
The decision taken will have ramifications, lots of them if you shoot and kill someone, possibly more if you only wound him.
If you are a civilian you have a right to defend yourself and others. If you are an LEO, then you have to consider the safety of everyone else, including those you may not be able to see at the moment.
After 40+ years of carrying for a living, if possible, the guy goes down, right now, and stays there. If that cannot happen with safety to others, then open the range fast! Most BG can't shoot worth spit even close up. Cover and concealment come next, now you have time, and distance to use to your advantage if possible.
Sorry to say so, but closing the range with an armed assailant, with the intention of using hard hand tactics just does not compute. That is a move of last resort desperation, like when he has your gun(and you don't have another one), and you have nowhere to go-at all.
BTW all the remarks about remaining unknown are really good and to the point, no one needs to know you might own a gun, or a fishing rod for that matter. Some very savvy people on this site.
A display of a pistol, and a statement of give me your money or you will be shot constitutes a forcible felony in any state of the union. This means you may use deadly force to defend yourself or another from death or serious bodily harm(but not necessarily just to capture the offender).
Any further discussion is simply about the ability to do so effectively.
21 feet, 7 yards, that is the distance that a person armed with an edged weapon can close with you and inflict a lethal wound before you can react and shoot. If it is so with a knife, it is a no brainer with a firearm-the guy dosen't even have to move an inch!
As to the unarmed combat gurus out there, been there done that. Punch a guy with a pistol in the nose? Sheeesh, you must be real good at punching(and bulletproof).
Only you on the spot can decide all of the variables that have been posed in this thread, the decision to fight or flee, respond or take cover, attack or defend, are going to be made then and there.
The decision taken will have ramifications, lots of them if you shoot and kill someone, possibly more if you only wound him.
If you are a civilian you have a right to defend yourself and others. If you are an LEO, then you have to consider the safety of everyone else, including those you may not be able to see at the moment.
After 40+ years of carrying for a living, if possible, the guy goes down, right now, and stays there. If that cannot happen with safety to others, then open the range fast! Most BG can't shoot worth spit even close up. Cover and concealment come next, now you have time, and distance to use to your advantage if possible.
Sorry to say so, but closing the range with an armed assailant, with the intention of using hard hand tactics just does not compute. That is a move of last resort desperation, like when he has your gun(and you don't have another one), and you have nowhere to go-at all.
BTW all the remarks about remaining unknown are really good and to the point, no one needs to know you might own a gun, or a fishing rod for that matter. Some very savvy people on this site.
Bear Gulch
Member
Kokondo Karate's Basai Kata has a combined throat/bladder attck using a U punch. This attack freaks out a lot of people. They may blockone but most won't bloc both. Secondly, if he's blocking both of your hands, he can't pull his gun.
I'd still say that I'd open a can on him.
I'd still say that I'd open a can on him.
Jenrick
Member
Quite a few states up in the NE have a retreate statute on the books. US v. PETERSON, USCA, District of Columbia Circuit 483 F.2d 1222 (1973) goes over this.
Basic background is a guy advances on Peterson with a tire iron in his own front yard, though Peterson was the one who started it all argueably.
Now depending on the state this won't hold true. In Texas for instance there's the castle doctrine for the home, and a pretty board statute for elsewhere.
-Jenrick
MikeIsaj
Member
Pa. requires surrender and retreat as an alternative to force if it can be done safely. That's a judgement left to the individual at the time of the incident. The DA in Bucks County is pretty pro gun owner in these situations.
I'm not sure this situation would warrant deadly force but it certainly would be wise to draw and aim as you rereat. More than likely he will give jusification to shoot with his next move.
I'm not sure this situation would warrant deadly force but it certainly would be wise to draw and aim as you rereat. More than likely he will give jusification to shoot with his next move.
River Wraith
Member
I had a question, but after reading "monkey steals the peach" I forgot it. Made me a little queasy and gave me the sudden urge to buy a cup.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
