Interesting score on some 6.5 Swedish ammo

[gsbuickman]

Biya Guy's .

I recently picked up another 114 rounds of 6.5 Swede ammo to shoot up with my Carl gustaf's 94/14 Swedish Mauser and my Norwegian krag Jorgensen in 6.5 Swede . Some of it is head stamped Norma 6.5 x 55 but most of it is head stamped V146 48 HA & some of them have a triangle at the 10 O'clock osition and some of them do not .

I got to wondering what these shells are as I've never seen them before so I looked them up online and this is what I found on the cartridge collectors forum. Now I don't know if I want to shoot them up and reload them or keep them for nostalgia ??. Here's the initial question someone asked about the same ammo :

Standard looking round with hedastamp HA 48 V146 brass primer, round nose CN bullet, There is a TRIANGLE mark in the 10 oclock position , which I have not seen before, obviously added to the headstamp later, my guess is a reload mark, or is it something else? thanks Randy

And here's the answer to the question :

This ammo was produced in the late 1940's by HaerensArsenalet, Kobenhaven, for use with Borrowed Swedish M96 rifles being used by the newly constituted Danish Army post-war (even though they had large quantities of US and British equipment.)

The cartridges were made up according to the older M96 shooting tables, as the rifles lent were still sighted for the M94 RN ball.

It seems the cases, as made, had an imperfectly-formed Berdan anvil, and this had to be rectified before being loaded/re-loaded, as there initially was a high rate of misfires.

I don’t know whether the cases were reworked in production, or they were “re-manufactured” after having been assembled as complete ammo.

The other (subsequent) problem was that the Nickel-jacket Projectiles excessively Fouled the Bores of the rifles, casing excessive pressures, and some case failures(Blow backs). The problem was solved by returning the Swedish rifles to Sweden by the early 1950s, in the meantime using fresh Swedish made ammo as well.

The “V146” ammo was subsequently sold as surplus to Interarms in the late 1950s, where it found its way onto the US market, where it was instantly found to cause excessive bore fouling problems, with some dire results…by the 1970s, almost everybody knew to avoid using the ammo in any M96 or M38 Swedish Mauser rifles…the problem was especially bad in Ag42B semi-autos…

So, an interesting Collectors item; being the first (and possibly only) production of 6,5x55 by the HA of Denmark.

Regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics

 

[22250Rem]

Very interesting.... I've been playing around with 3 different Swedish Mausers since 1995 and haven't heard of that stuff. Although in the late 90's I saw some older, odd 6.5x55 mil-surp ammo for sale at a gun show that I had never seen before. But now I can't recall the details and I wonder if it was some of that ? I even dug out some of my old 6.5x55 factory ammo that I haven't looked at in years ( Haven't shot a factory round in years; just handloads) but it was Privi Partizan manufactured 140 gr. stuff that was distributed by Century Arms in the mid to late 1990's. Wonder how much of that HA headstamped stuff made it to the U.S.?

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

I would pull the bullets and check for corrosion due to deteriorated powder. If the cases are structurally sound, I would use them for reloading, but toss the bullets and powder.

Under no circumstances do I shoot Milsurp ammo older than the 80's and even then I take a few samples from each box/lot and inspect them for deterioration.

 

[jonnyc]

I've shot 1900 7x57 without any issues. There's no specific date when ammo goes bad, still lots of WWII ammo going BANG on ranges. It all depends on the storage practices.
That "HA" 6.5 ammo is pretty common and not really worth much to collectors. I would shoot most of it up and just clean the barrel with proper solvents to reduce/eliminate any fouling problems.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

I've shot 1900 7x57 without any issues. There's no specific date when ammo goes bad, still lots of WWII ammo going BANG on ranges. It all depends on the storage practices.
That "HA" 6.5 ammo is pretty common and not really worth much to collectors. I would shoot most of it up and just clean the barrel with proper solvents to reduce/eliminate any fouling problems.

Ahhhhhh, but nobody can know what dank, steamy cargo ship holds or warehouses that stuff has been sitting in over the last 70 years. You may get lucky for a long time, but all it takes is one round loaded with unstable powder to turn your rifle into kindling and leaving you with stitches-or worse.

But sure, we are all adults here. Take your chances if you like to save a few bucks.

 

[792mauser]

I'd pull the projectiles and have fun.
I wouldn't think they'd be much of a market for ammunition whose projos foul that bad. So I'd pull 'em and have pre primed cases.

 

[Kaeto]

My dad has a case of that ammo. Still in the original boxes. He bought it when he got his Obendorf made Mauser back in the late 50s.

 

[gsbuickman]

My dad has a case of that ammo. Still in the original boxes. He bought it when he got his Obendorf made Mauser back in the late 50s.

Kool, if he wouldn't mind selling a little of it please let me know .

 

[Slamfire]

I've shot 1900 7x57 without any issues. There's no specific date when ammo goes bad, still lots of WWII ammo going BANG on ranges. It all depends on the storage practices.
That "HA" 6.5 ammo is pretty common and not really worth much to collectors. I would shoot most of it up and just clean the barrel with proper solvents to reduce/eliminate any fouling problems.

Sometimes that old ammunition does more than go bang, it will go Kaboom!

When that 1900 ammunition was new, seventeen years later, the HMS Vanguard blew up, in harbor, due to cordite deterioration in the powder magazine. I only found out recently about the number of warship blowups due to deteriorated gunpowder. Worth a read:

Disaster in Harbour: The Loss of HMS Vanguard https://www.cnrs-scrn.org/northern_mariner/vol10/tnm_10_3_57-89.pdf

Gunpowder lasts forever, right, like this powder?







For those that think old ammo is still ok....
http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/powder-keg/38539-those-think-old-ammo-still-ok-print.html

A buddy of mine took his Sig p220 .45 down the range with us the other weekend. He had some old winchester hollowpoints that looked like they had been buried for 30 years. With myself still being new to guns and shooting, i didnt think anything about it.

Well he took one shot and it blow up in his hand. Now he has shot numerous rounds through this gun without a problem, of course they were new. Anyway, noone was hurt but the sig. This is hte way the gun is stuck in. It will not budge. Id say its a nice new paperweight

Remington 700 Overpressure with 20 year old factory ammunition


http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527519

I'm sighting in my Remington 700 BDL .270 / Nikon 3X9 BDC today, and I decided to rotate old stock ammo. In this case, brand new (20 years ago), 130 grain ammo by a well known US ammunition Company. I bought several boxes of this brand, same lot, back in the early 90's after I discovered how wonderful they worked on woodchucks.


So I'm firing my 2nd round... WHAM! My mild .270 rifle bellows and whacks me in the glasses, odd I thought, as my .270's never kick like that.


The bolt won't open. I mean it is JAMMED. So after 5 min of banging on the bolt with my hand (HARD),it opens Ok, now the bolt draws back hard and the brass feels like its WELDED to the bolt face. I had to use a leatherman tool to pry it out. Rim was damaged, blackened, primer floating around, etc. Bolt appeared ok (Thank the Good Lord for Remington's 3 rings of steel protecting me!), and after switching ammo and using newer stock, the rifle functioned and sighted in 100% perfect. Scared the hell out of me though! This was factory ammo too, not reloads.




Ok, so I called Remington (ammo was early 90's vintage 130 grain Rem bronze point). They only back their ammo for 10 years (expected shelf life according to Remington). Note* I kept this ammo in a cool, dry place, sealed in a US Military ammo can for the past 2 decades. I have ammo from the 50's and 60's that still shoots fine. I guess with gunpowder, it's like rolling dice.

So, I'm glad the rifle is a Remington, as it was strong enough to take the hit without any damage, otherwise it would be my dime (and hide). I had our armorer (LEO), check it out as well. The bolt face appears ok, and I pulled the firing pin, ok as well. Damn strong rifle.

That brass was warped near the rim, I hate to guess what the PSI was, I'm betting well over 80,000 PSI, given how stiff that bolt was to open.

If I can get a photo posted, I will. Now I have several boxes of old .270 ammo to dispose of, as I'm not going to shoot it through my cherished 700 BDL anymore. At least the brass is still good and my right hand is still attached to my arm!
Time to go out and stock up on .270's!!!


Picher; Yes, bore was / is like a mirror. The rifle is a MINT early 80's BDL 700. No rust or pitting. She is one sexy rifle, it was love at first sight...

The high gloss wood and rich, deep blue steel.... MMmmmmm!!!!


It was close to 90 on Sunday in Maine, and humid. The ammo has been stored correctly, but, after all, it HAS been 20 years or so. I know my knees are not the same as they were 2 decades ago, so I guess I can't expect the ammo to fair any better. It just caught me off guard, as I stock up on (and shoot), old ammo, and NEVER had any issue. I guess I need to rotate my supply more often...

HK Blown up with Brazilian Surplus


http://www.jerzeedevil.com/forums/showthread.php/90285-Gun-Blown-up

Hello gang i was just wondering if any of you guys have ever blown up a gun while shooting. I had the unfortunate luck of blowing up an HK-91 back around 1989. Me and a buddy of mine were buying cases of mil surplus from a company in ohio at the time in 1000 rd. cases. We had gotten a few cases from said company and never had any issues. Well the last case we got from them was from brazil cbc i believe it was. He called me and said he was having jamming issues with this ammo in his sar-48 bush gun. I told him well i'll go out with you and run some through my 91 it'll eat anything. Well the third round out of the 91 "BOOM" pretty scary it was.

I think you can have or get a bad round or lot of ammo with any manufacturer. That being said the ammo that blew my 91 up was military surplus from brazil. Thats the problem with mil surplus its put onto the market because its deemed not worthy of use for the military of said country.

So you get some good some bad you take your chances. But when your setting off small explosions with each trigger pull in your weapon anything can happen at any time with any manufacturers product.

Just be sure to wear eye and e

ar protection and good gloves are'nt a bad idea either. "**** HAPPENS" you know, don't you just love that saying.

Be safe and have a great weekend.

http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21886

Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:29 PM


'Tailgunner', on 17 Jul 2012 - 13:16, said:

I picked up some surplus ammo a couple of years ago and had a couple of hang fires. The hammer would drop and a second later the rifle would discharge.

After that happened a couple of times, I decided I wasn't going to shoot that stuff any more. So I took the ammo apart, thinking I'd at least salvage the brass. After I'd pulled all of the bullets and dumped the powder, I tried chucking the primed cases in a vice and then hit the primers with a pin punch and a hammer. I found that some of the primers would "pop" but others would just sizzle and smoke. I'm pretty sure those were my hang fires. It was an interesting experiment.


The last surplus ammo I had looked so bad that I never fired any of it. Like you, I took it apart. The powder was clumped together. The base of the bullet was green with corrosion. I decapped all the brass, burned the primers and powder outside when burning rubbish, and sold the brass and bullets to a scrap company. Recouped a very small amount of initial price. That was the last time I got fooled on surplus ammo crap.

My guess is that most of the foreign countries that are selling surplus goods to the USA, don't care much about how they handle or store the items, as long as it gets on the shipping container and they pocket the purchase price, they are happy. Caveat emptor is Latin for "Let the buyer beware." It especially applies to surplus goods that have a shelf life. Where was it stored? How was it stored? What temperature? Subjected to water or salt air? Exposed to a structure fire? How was it transported? Etc. etc...too many unanswered questions. A deal that is too good to be true, usually is too good to be true.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7756780&postcount=6

Although it's remotely possible that a defective load (very unlikely if factory ammo) or poorly stored ammo that had deterioated. I had some H450 go bad and an "accuracy" load from a .30/06 w/180gr bullet locked up the bolt and removed case looked like a belted magnum...... but gun was unharmed.... primer was blown however and pitted the bolt face...... I pulled down the rest of the ammo and powder "stunk" like vinegar and inside of cases were turning green from acid corrosion..... Ammo had only been loaded 6mos earlier... and powder looked and smelled "ok" then.

Garand Blowup with WWII ball


http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7870113&postcount=13

I have an old shooting buddy who some years ago was shooting some WWII ball (don’t know whose) but his M-1 was disassembled in a rather rapid fashion. He was lucky only his pride was hurt. He said he took a round apart and found rust looking dust along with the powder. Bad powder. Just sayin…..The op rod can be rebuilt which might be a good way to go. Op Rods are getting harder to find and when you find one a premium price is required so it seems. Garands require grease. I’m not sure if you are aware of this. If you are, please no offence taken.

Garand Blowup with old US ammunition.


http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?p=1344088

There was a thread on another forum titeled “What’s in your ammo can” and many guys had old surpluss ammo so I told this story. Ty (arizonaguide) asked that I come put it here also so here it is boys, draw your own conclutions.

Back in the mid 80s my Dad and a bunch of us went shooting in Arizona. Dad had a couple thousand rounds of WWII surplus .30M1 (30-06) ammo that looked great on the outside cut his M1 in half in his hands. He was kneeling with elbow on knee when the first round of this ammo went BOOM! We were all pelted with sand and M1 shrapnel.

When the dust cleared Dad was rolling around on his back with buttstock in one hand, for stock in the other, barrel and receiver hanging by the sling around his arm trying to yell “mortar” thinking he was back on Okinawa in battle. The blast had removed his ear muffs, hat, glasses, and broke the headlight in my truck 15 feet away but Dad was only shook up and scratched a bit once he got his wits back. It sheared off the bolt lugs, blew open the receiver front ring, pushed all the guts out the bottom of the magazine, and turned the middle of the stock to splinters.

After a couple hours of picking up M1 shrapnel we headed to the loading bench and started pulling bullets. Some of the powder was fine, some was stuck together in clumps, and some had to be dug out with a stick. It didn’t smell and was not dusty like powder usuley is when it’s gone bad. Put it in a pie tin and light it and it seemed a tad fast but not so you would think it could do that, wasent like lighting a pistol powder even. He had 2000 rounds of this stuff and nun of us were in any mood to play with it much after what we watched so it all went onto a very entertaining desert bon fire. I got the M1 splinters when Dad died last year and will post pix here below for your parousal and entertainment.

Anyway, I no longer play with any ammo I am not 100% sure has always been stored properly . . . cheap shooting ain’t worth the risk to me anymore! I still buy surpluss if the price in right but I unload and reload it with powder I am sure of or just use the brass.

She was a good shooting servasable Winchester M1 before this.

Catastrophic Failure

http://www.jouster.com/forums/showthread.php?43897-Catastrophic-Failure

Had a bad experience a week ago. Went to the range to test fire some handloads through a Springfield M1 and ultimately it blew up.

Details: Rifle - M1 Garand, Springfield manufacture receiver (1942) rebarreled in1947.
Ammo: 3-rounds. Reloaded - full-length sized once fired Federal brass, 163 grain mechanically pulled surplus bullet, Winchester Large Rifle primers, 46.5 grains of IMR4895 powder. Powder was dispensed/weighed using RCBS Chargemaster system calibrated immediately before use. Brass was checked for OA length and was within specs. prior to loading. Bullets were seated to crimping groove but not crimped.

Third round fired and rifle disintegrated through magazine well area.

Later analysis of rifle indicates bolt face fracture and case head failure. Lower front of bolt face sheared off around ejector hole causing passageway for hot gases and fragments to enter magazine well area and blow out stock and triggerguard floorplate. Receiver held and bolt frozen in place. Bolt has been removed and shows fracturing of both locking lugs as well as longitudinal fracture back from ejector hole. Extractor has backed out. Last round/fractured brass still stuck in chamber.

Post 151

Original loads were:

1) Primer seating depth was checked by visual and finger feel.
2) The original powder was old - still in metal can and starting to show brown dust (on retrospect).
3) Pulled bullets were GI AP.

HXP at Perry . . .

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=115939

HXP 77 was the culprit. I won't shoot that stuff. A whole bunch of heavy bolt handle lifts in the 03 matches when it was issued at Perry. I have fired a lot of HXP 70, 72 & 73 with no issues at all, 03's and M1's.


Tombguard, What Ceresco is implying is that while HXP 77 ammo exhibited frequent and sometimes severe issues (excessive bolt lift force, dismounted op rods, duds, hangfires, etc.) there is the concern that other lots will have the same issues but with perhaps lesser frequency. If a manufacturing process doesn't have robust QC practices, more issues are lurking out there like snakes in the grass. I am not saying that you should avoid HXP ammo - I'm just saying that one should be aware that systemically the issues might extend beyond HXP 77 ammo


In the 2007 Perry matches it was '88 dated ammo that gave a lot of 03A3 fits on opening. I keep the saved round I had in rapids beside the silver medal I earned with 29 rounds. Believe me when I tell you it was locking those bolts up TIGHT. (As in roll out of position and beat them open.)

Stiff Bolt Handle on SC 03a3

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=92269&highlight=high+pressure+greek

Took my SC 03a3 to the range a week ago, shooting fairly good groups at 100yds (~2MOA) with unsorted HXP. Had a problem though - occasionally the bolt handle would be VERY difficult to lift open. Never had that before with new production ammo, other sessions with HXP, and never had a problem when dry-firing (snap caps, etc). Didn't break anything evident, and everything APPEARS to function correctly. The brass all looks like I expect (There is some minor pitting in the chamber which shows on the brass, but does not effect extraction), it just felt like I needed a hammer or a crow bar to lift the bolt handle sometimes (but not always). Any ideas as to what is going wrong


Typical HXP problem. It will often be hard to chamber some rounds as well. I had 3 saved rounds in 2006 at the Western Games 1903 match when round 7 could not be extracted from the chamber and no one had a BFH handy. A wooden mallet later helped extract the round. That was in a pristine M1903 Remington with a perfect chamber. All other ammo I feed it functions perfectly. I have a 1903A3 that also has issues with HXP. About 10-20% of some lots are very long in the shoulder. I have a couple rounds that won't chamber in a 1903 at all. It almost looks like I put a No-Go gage in the chamber.


If it is only when you shoot HXP new ammo that is your problem and your answer. It's a problem that has existed with a great many bolt guns since the very first day that CMP began selling HXP ammo and has been much discussed in this forum and others for several years (and see, even today). It was a common complaint among shooters for years at the regional CMP Games and the Nationals when CMP was issuing HXP as the required ammo to use. As I stated before, in 2006, if you walked the line in every relay of the 1903 match you would see shooters having to slap bolts closed and struggle to get bolts open. Many saved rounds in rapid fire were the result and the reason for the many complaints for several years.

I doubt there is a single thing wrong with your rifle or anyone's rifle that is experiencing this problem with HXP in bolt guns. If other ammo feeds and extracts without problems you have the answer already. The long and short of it

.....no pun intended....is the ammo, not the rifle. HXP brass is some of the greatest re-loadable brass out there but, it often sucks the first time around through a bolt gun. Nature of the beast.

Chilean 75 kaboom on IMBEL


http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=142685

Jeter's right,.....****ty brass. '75 Chilean is notorious for blowing up rifles. This one was freshly built, in spec and headspaced(fortunately not mine). It took approximately 60 rounds to find the 'bad' one. Shooter was relatively unharmed; just a few nicks and cuts. Probably has a world class flinch now. Barrel and bolt looked OK, carrier was not recovered(as in 'no one could find it'). I would not want to be in the way of a carrier that was departing the area at such a speed as to become lost.

*Note* Do not fire Chilean '75.


I wasn't present at the festivities, so I don't have pics of the barrel, etc. I was told by my gunsmith that the barrel was used in the rebuild on another new receiver, as was the bolt, so those parts were undamaged. The extractor was gone of course.

The Chilean '75 has brittle brass that tends to let go, dumping full pressure into the action. I've seen several FALs, HK91's and MG42's destroyed by this ammunition. The picture below(bad as it is)is of a different case,......not the case that destroyed the Imbel pictured above. It did destroy an FAL and I was present at this event. Pretty much the same but without the destruction of the receiver ring; receiver was bulged open at the magwell and the magazine bulged and blown out. Bolt and carrier remained in the rifle, but the topcover was blown off along with the extractor. Again, barrel

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4702804#post4702804


Bad Bad 7.62x25 Ammo

http://www.ramanon.com/forum/showthread.php?57650-Bad-7-62x25-Ammo

You have probably read my recent thread on a CZ-52 and FTF problems. I expected it was the pistol that had the problem. A few days ago I took it to the range again with the same can of mil-surp ammo after polishing suspect surfaces in the pistol as the possible cause of its problem.

Right away I had the same FTF problem. The slide would not quite close all the way on a round. I had to nudge the slide fully into battery all too often.

So I began to think of other possible causes of the FTF and examined the ammo I was firing. I might have the answer. The surplus 7.62x25 ammo had cracks in the brass of unfired ammo! Often right where a dimple was is in the case that held the bullet head into the case. Sometimes sizeable cracks between the dimples.

Take a look at these unfired cartridges and the cracks. This defective ammo could explain my feeding problem

Has anyone else had Vihtavuori N140 corrode in loaded ammo?

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3745264

I pulled two boxes (100 rounds total) of .308 ammo out of the safe I loaded about ten years ago and found some of them had blue powdery stuff coming out of the necks. I pulled a few rounds down and the inside case walls were powdery blue. The base of the bullets were corroded and blue. None of the other .308 ammo in the safe loaded with Varget has this problem. None of my pistol ammo looks to have anything wrong, but I haven't unloaded any of them. None of my blued guns have any rust. It's not a moist environment issue.

I've never had this happen before. Spent a lot of money loading this ammo for my AR-10 and used new brass, CCI BR2 primers, and N140 powder. It's all junk now.

What made me check it was I shot my AR-10 that's been sitting idle for about 8 years. Same ammo as what's in the boxes I checked. Out of the first ten rounds from the mag that was in the gun three blew primer pockets. I unloaded the rest of the cartridges and they were corroded.

I googled it and found one instance where someone else had the same thing happen

With old ammunition, and I mean stuff more than 20 years old, it is smart to pull a few bullets and inspect for signs of powder deterioration, which would be evidenced by corrosion, clumpy gunpowder, etc.

 

[jonnyc]

"looked like they had been buried for 30 years"
"found some of them had blue powdery stuff coming out of the necks"
"said he was having jamming issues with this ammo in his sar-48 bush gun"
"he took a round apart and found rust looking dust along with the powder"
"I pulled down the rest of the ammo and powder "stunk" like vinegar and inside of cases were turning green from acid corrosion"
"Ammo: 3-rounds. Reloaded"
"I expected it was the pistol that had the problem" It was.
"ammo out of the safe I loaded about ten years ago and found some of them had blue powdery stuff coming out of the necks"

"With old ammunition, and I mean stuff more than 20 years old, it is smart to pull a few bullets and inspect for signs of powder deterioration, which would be evidenced by corrosion, clumpy gunpowder, etc."

Last point is true and good advice, but there are many reasons, beyond the age of ammo, that can cause a gun to KB. And not shooting ammo older than 20 years is nothing more than a waste of good ammo.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Every Surplus Firearms Collector should have a few rounds of this 6.5 Swede ammo. Not that it’s worth shooting, but just to have.
And if you shoot surplus ammo, you should always inspect it before shooting it.

 

[Slamfire]

Last point is true and good advice, but there are many reasons, beyond the age of ammo, that can cause a gun to KB. And not shooting ammo older than 20 years is nothing more than a waste of good ammo.

Twenty years is not a bad rule of thumb for deciding to pull some bullets and inspect. Ammunition companies claim a 10 year shelf life, not a 100 year shelf life. What I have been doing is a public service announcement, to contradict the narrative , created within the in print press, that ammunition and gunpowder lasts forever. It does not. Gunpowder does follow the second law of thermodynamics, the lifetime of gunpowder is indefinite, which means, "unknowable". I have read every Arms and the Man, American Rifleman, back to 1906, and have been reading Guns and Ammo, Shooting Times, Rifles, Handloader, for decades. Which ones I read depend on how cheap they are willing to sell!. But the fact of the matter, particularly in Rifle/Handloader, the popular in print press has explicitly promoted the idea that gunpowder and ammunition lasts "almost" forever, and when it does deteriorate, gunpowder deteriorates to a "benign state". Not only is this nonsense, gunpowder can, it will, and it has, blown up firearms. It has also caused house fires. Bulk supplies need to be inspected for signs of deterioration before it auto combusts and burns your house down. Or blows up your Battleship. Gunpowder does not get any better with age, as it breaks down, and it is breaking down from a high energy molecule to a low energy molecule the day it leaves the factory. And as it breaks down, the burn rate changes. It gets very bad at the end of its lifetime. The powder grains deteriorate irregularly and that creates conflicting and unpredictable pressure waves, the simple term is "burn rate instability" and that will blow your firearm into teeny tiny pieces.

Now, if you self educate, you can search the web, starting with the term "Insensitive Munitions" and find all sorts of information about munitions, which include grenades, artillery shells, missiles, anything that uses a smokeless propellant, and if anyone is half clever, they will figure out, this stuff does not last forever.

If I had know this years ago, I would not have bought so much surplus gunpowder, about 80% of which I had to dump. I did not know and the sellers sure did not tell me, that the stuff was surplus because the military had inspected the stuff, determined that it was beyond its shelf life, was dangerous to keep in stores, was going to be dangerous to shoot soon, and then sold it to morons, like myself. This includes the loaded surplus ammunition on the market. The military keeps stuff in inventory till it has to get rid of it, not before. Luckily I ran into an Insenstive Munitions expert and found out about the thermochemistry of nitrocellulose and was able to self educate once I was pointed in the right direction. But I sure wasted a lot of money before then. This is an example, I loaded this stuff up with new IMR powder, did not shoot it till recently, and that gunpowder outgassed NOx, which ruined the case. If I had known, I would have sized the case, trimmed the case, primed the case, and not loaded any gunpowder in the case, till I planned to shoot the stuff.



Shooters as a class don't know that old ammunition has problems, and one machine gunner I talked to, had "blown the top cover" twice with 1950's 8mm Yugo. After he got educated, he understood why he had experienced severe pressure problems. It was old damn ammunition. And this is a caution for those with machine guns. By legislative design, the number of machine guns in the hands of civilians has been capped. You know how much you paid for your machine gun, and you know, a replacement will cost more tomorrow. You blow your $100,000 machine gun up, destroy the registered part, a host of anti gun Democrats are clapping their hands, because, that is one less machine gun out there in civilian hands. Yippie! And don't forget, you are out, $100,000. I recommend that if the old surplus ammunition you have ever shows any indications of pressure problems, pull the bullets, dump the powder, and inspect the cases and bullets for signs of corrosion. If nothing is corroded, load the stuff up with new gunpowder. If you get case cracking, such as I experienced, it is up to you to decide whether or not to shoot the brass. If it splits through the case head, things can go wrong very quickly. Neck splits cause problems if the case neck is left in the chamber. That is why, I carry a cleaning rod with an old brass bristle brush on the end, to knock case necks out. Sometimes the neck comes out jammed on the next round.



Sometimes they don't



You decide for yourself what you want to do with your old ammunition.

 

[boom boom]

Twenty years is not a bad rule of thumb for deciding to pull some bullets and inspect. Ammunition companies claim a 10 year shelf life, not a 100 year shelf life. What I have been doing is a public service announcement, to contradict the narrative , created within the in print press, that ammunition and gunpowder lasts forever. It does not. . . .

You decide for yourself what you want to do with your old ammunition.

Thanks. Generally speaking, you get what you paid for and there is a reason that militaries dispose of this stuff over time. Ordnance has an expiration date. Chemicals in smokeless powder deteriorate over time and that can be accelerated by poor storage conditions. As far as powder goes, when the stabilizers fail, then the powder is unsafe to store or to fire.

The bright side is that you can pull the bullets and often times re use the primed brass from this ammo. And the rare stuff, sell to ammo collectors.

Think about it from an investment standpoint, would you use that old gas in the storage shed kept over winter without a fuel stabilizer in your car as a common practice?

Thus, in a similar fashion using cheap ammo of dubious quality and uncertain storage that risks damaging an expensive firearm or medical expenses to life and limb if something goes south generally does not make sense.

 

[Bwana John]

Here you go, 4800 rounds of 6.5 Swede for $96 !!!
http://www.jgsales.com/6.5x55-swedish-m14-blank,-wooden-projectile,-4800rds.-p-92711.html

 

[Kaeto]

I have a few of those in my ammo collection. I tell people they are for killing Vampires. I also have a 5.56 round that the projectile is a translucent green stone. I say it's for killing Superman. I want to get a .45 Long Colt round with a Silver projectile. Both for it's Werewolf killing traits as well as it's association with a certain 'Masked Rider of the Plains'.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

Well heck, I guess those stripper clips of black tip Lake City 06 are all junk now... what a waste.

 

[boom boom]

Well heck, I guess those stripper clips of black tip Lake City 06 are all junk now... what a waste.

Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not but the AP bullets are not waste nor the primed brass (potentially although its life may be shortened to brittleness). You don't really want to fire black tip through a good bore anyway under normal conditions. Ammo collectors also pay a premium for black tip ammo as well.

To save what you have, pull the bullets, check the brass for deterioration (bad powder turns acidic due to stabilizers being used up), dump the powder, put new smokeless powder in, reseat bullets, and fire.

At the very least, pull the bullets on some of your old ammo (if from the same lot) and check for powder deterioration. Bonus bag mystery ammo with all sorts, pull the bullets and dump the powder.

In milsurp circles, it is often quite common to pull bullets, throw out the bad powder, and reuse the primed cases reloaded with smokeless powder with the original bullets with light loads (due to the uncertainty of primer id). I prefer to just buy the pulled bullets for a few oddball rounds such as the 8mm Lebel or 8x56r loads when I actually had the time and ability to reload.

For posterity's sake and other THR readers of this thread,

"As smokeless powders deteriorate, they generate small amounts of nitric acid. Stabilizers are added to these powders to absorb acid byproduct. Most powders have fifty or more years of life before the stabilizers are used up and nitric acid begins to leach out of the nitrocellulose, leaving plain cellulose and reducing the efficiency of the powder. Occasionally powder will deteriorate owing to acid residue that was not properly washed out in the manufacturing process. Such powder will take on an unpleasant acidic smell and a brown dust looking very like rust will appear in the powder."

https://gundigest.com/more/how-to/the-basics-of-powder-selection-for-reloaders

Poor storage conditions, especially heat and high humidity, can speed the deterioration of powder. FWIW, my father was an ordnance officer and disposing of old munitions and checking the status of the same was a major part of the workload of his units.

 

[Slamfire]

"As smokeless powders deteriorate, they generate small amounts of nitric acid. Stabilizers are added to these powders to absorb acid byproduct. Most powders have fifty or more years of life before the stabilizers are used up and nitric acid begins to leach out of the nitrocellulose, leaving plain cellulose and reducing the efficiency of the powder. Occasionally powder will deteriorate owing to acid residue that was not properly washed out in the manufacturing process. Such powder will take on an unpleasant acidic smell and a brown dust looking very like rust will appear in the powder."

Boom Boom, I know you mean well. Overall, the guy is correct about stabilizers and what deteriorated gunpowder looks like. However, he has no basis for stating that gunpowder has a 50 or more years shelf life. These gunwriters have an explicit bias to minimize issues over gunpowder deterioration. Notice no warning about old gunpowder spiking pressures or autocombusting. I believe the 50 year was offered so we won't worry our pretty little heads about the lifetime of the old ammunition on the gunstore shelf. Gunwriters are such shills. I would rather read the lifetime estimates from someone who actually has an ammunition stockpile to over see:


Army Not Producing Enough Ammunition

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2003/May/Pages/Army_Not3866.aspx


Regardless of what the Army decides to do with its industrial base, the fundamental issue does not change: the Army needs to produce more war reserve ammunition, Naughton said. Time is running out, he said. “Most of the ammunition in the stockpile today was built 20 years ago during the Cold War buildup.” Most rounds are designed to have a shelf life of 20 years. “We are outside the envelope of the shelf life on 40 percent or more of our existing ammunition. The rest is rapidly approaching the end of its shelf life.”

Ammunition does not “go bad” overnight, after it reaches a certain age, but “once it’s over 20 years old, the reliability rapidly degrades,” said Naughton. Within a few years, it will become increasingly difficult to shoot it. “You can predict that you’ll lose 7-8 percent of the ammo after the 20-year mark.”*

To replace the obsolete rounds, the Army would have to produce 100,000 tons of war reserve ammunition a year for the next seven years. Past that point, it would need 50,000 tons to 60,000 tons a year to sustain the stockpile. That represents about “half the level of the Cold War buildup,” he said.

* I think what is meant, 7-8 percent per year after 20 years.

Did anyone notice the 100,000 tons a year statement. The amount of old munitions that are dumped every year is staggering. And invisible to the shooting community.

One of the best sources of information on ammunition stockpiles ironically turns out to be an anti gun, and anti war web site: Small Arms Survey. www.smallarmssurvey.org They are always changing their links, so these won't last long, but if you look at the information they have collected, they are a valuable resource.

State Stockpiles

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/weapons-and-markets/stockpiles/state-stockpiles.html

Unplanned Explosions at Munitions Sites

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/weap.../unplanned-explosions-at-munitions-sites.html

Unplanned explosions at munitions sites (UEMS) are a global problem. The Small Arms Survey defines UEMS as the accidental explosion of stockpiles of ammunition and explosives at storage sites, whether the stockpiles are properly stored or are abandoned, damaged, or improperly stored.

A single UEMS incident often results in dozens of casualties and millions of dollars in damages to nearby buildings, infrastructure, and homes. Recent research conducted by the Survey reveals that these incidents are widespread and increasingly common. The Survey’s research recorded 579 incidents in more than 100 countries and territories between 1979 and February 2018—meaning that UEMS incidents take place on every continent save Antarctica, and affect more than half of UN member states. The number of events recorded by the Survey ranges from zero (for example, Botswana or New Zealand) to 71 (in the Russian Federation).

Here are some UEMS's on video:







These explosions are primarily due to old gunpowder in old ammunition autocombusting . And the stuff is not necessarily over 50 years old. For a time Talon was able to buy discarded US military ammunition and demill the stuff. Not only were they selling the bullets and brass, but they were selling the old gunpowder:

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=3&t=248538


I run a long range shooting club here in NM. Yesterday a member approached me with a question about a powder he is using. He said " it's fuming" ........What?
I walked down and sure enough the powder was outgassing a very heavy oder of ammonia and Nitric Acid fumes. The powder was slowly turning sticky and had,from over night, corroded the brass cases and the projectiles.
This powder is milsurp pull down IMR-5010 powder that was sold in bulk from the long gone Talon company. Weidners and Pats reloading sells this powder in black plastic 8 pound jugs. There are no lot numbers or dates on the label.
I have been reloading since 1964 and have never seen this happen before. As you know nitro-cellulose uses Nitric Acid to make the propellant. Some how the acid was not neutralized correctly. When the acid is not removed from the powder grains, the deterent coating will break down and uncontrolled burning will happen. The powder may detonate rather than burn


If any of you have any powder that was OK a few months ago you may want to check it again. This powder was normal just last winter. Now it is breaking down. It was stored in a cool room. It was not left in the sunlight.


Chris at Weiders has been notified.


This was purely a PULLDOWN powder issue. NOT a Virgin IMR-5010 issue. I know the guy this allegedly happened to (Paul A. of Albuquerque). I suggested he post the source, acquisition date, etc but to date he has not. He told me the powder was PULLDOWN IMR-5010 from www.wideners.com. Wideners allegedly told him they would not replace the powder as his storage of it was beyond their control. Also, he had no direct status with them as he obtained this particular jug from another guy that had bought it from wideners.

I personally know the guy this happened to and unless you see some sort of acrid fumes coming off your powder, I wouldn't worry about it. Paul is a real cheap skate. He was loading $2.00 Lehigh 800 grainers with surplus powder. Silly way to save $0.25.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?52892-Warning-surplus-IMR-5010-powder-users


1. 10-02-2009, 11:02 AM#6

Cincinnati Kid

That IMR 5010 powder that came from Talon has caused several large fires here in Ohio, two of them locally to a friend of mine, and one large fire in Northern Ohio that I know of. Anyone who has any of that 5010 powder that came from Talon needs to dispose of it if it shows any signs of breaking down. I wouldn't trust any of it.

I talked to Jeff Bartlett of GIbrass, the rules for buyers of surplus ammunition were changed. The Government had not expected that Talon would sell the propellant, they were supposed to burn the stuff, like everyone else had done before. Instead, they sold it to shooters who thought the stuff was immortal. Guess who told them that? Houses burnt down, probably people killed. Any way, future bids on demilled ammunition required that the winning bidder not sell the old propellant, but demill that.

Anybody remember this?

http://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015/9/2/product-recall-notice-imr-4007-ssc-powder/

by SSUSA Staff - Wednesday, September 2, 2015

Product Recall Notice: IMR 4007 SSC Powder

IMR Legendary Powders has announced a product safety warning and recall notice for IMR 4007 SSC on the six lot numbers listed below. Find your lot number on the side of your bottle as in the below photo.

•10130139
•10131139
•10429139
•10430139
•80425139
•80426139

IMR has received reports that this particular powder in 1 lb. and 8 lb. containers may have become unstable due to possible rapid deterioration. Use of this product from these lot numbers shown on the enclosed label may result in spontaneous combustion, fire damage or possible serious injury. IMR suggests that anyone who has this product should cease using it immediately! Fill the powder container with water which will render the product inert and safe for disposal.

Contact IMR directly for more information:

IMR Powder Company, 6430 Vista Drive, Shawnee, KS 66218, email [email protected], imrpowder.com, call 1-800-622-4366 or 913-362-9455 and fax 913-362-1307.

The powder auto combusting in the can could not have been more than eight years old.IMR 4007 came out in 2007. The stuff this poster was having high pressure problems, was 38 years old:


.http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?230264-When-milsurp-ammo-goes-bad

1. When milsurp ammo goes bad........

Have had a lot of 7.65 Argentine for several years; SF 80. I have shot about half of it but hadn't shot any for a couple years. Took some out this last summer and loaded 5 into the mag of my M1909, took up a good sitting position and set the sights at 600m for a sage brush on a hillside about that far away. Fired the first shot and smack into the sage, worked the bolt and fired the second shot and smacked the sage again. worked the bolt and the third shot wen high right and away.......dropped the but of the rifle out of the shoulder and immediately noticed smoke curling up out of the receiver........not good

Opened the bolt and the case came out minus the primer

Checked the other 2 shots and they all had high pressure signs. Stopped shooting.

I finally got around to pulling the rest of the bullets and about 2/3 had severe corrosion inside the cases and on the bases of the bullets. Picture shows 2 of the fired cases including the blown primer. Middle case shows corrosion inside the cases. Bullet on right shows corrosion on the base. Other 2 bullets cleaned up nice with polishing. Powder looks good with no discoloration and smells good but will make good fertilizer any

 

[Englishmn]

Just pulled some old mixed 243 that was showing blue around the slug. With a collet puller every bad round was very hard to pull bullet out and corroded on base and inside case, some had powder clumped in case and had to scrape it out, im tossing the cases. A couple good looking ones had no corrosion and just slid right out. I just set collet down on top of neck and pull bullet if it's good just push bullet back in and use them next time for practice.
If they showed any sign of corrosion around primer or bullet it turned out bad when I pulled it even if it had just one tiny speck on one side of neck it pulled hard and was blue inside.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I’ve been shooting Surplus ammo since 1984 and even back then you could get bad ammo. For people that have been shooting Surplus ammo, we know that it should be inspected first.
Among Collector that shoot their rifles word gets around about ammo that should be avoided such as the OP’s ammo. There was some South Korean 30-06 that came in a few years ago the ended the life of a few Garands. The Iranian 30-06 manufactured in the 60’s was nothing but garbage. The only thing salvageable was the bullet and the crates it was shipped in. A lot of ammo out of South America has always been questionable.

I will admit that the military is not always on its toes with mustering out old ammo. In the late 80’s I was doing some training at Fort Chaffee in Arkansas. I was the Platoon Sgt. for a Heavy Machine-gun platoon. I singed for 10000 rounds of 50 cal ammo for a day at the range. While shooting one of the guns made a much louder report every fifth round but no tracers was seen going down range. We checked the ammo, it all looked fine a and was dated mid 60’s. We checked the rest of the ammo and found five more cans with the same lot number and headstamp. We tried another can and the same thing happened. The tracers rounds were exploding as the extended the muzzle of the M2.
I returned the six cans of ammo to the ASP. Filled out enough paperwork to choke a horse and got six hundred rounds of good ammo. I don’t know if all that paperwork was necessary, or the Army just liked screwing with Marines.
Now not all mishaps are due to ammo. Like the guy that messed up his thumb shooting POF 303 ammo. It has been known for years that POF 303 British ammo will hang fire, unless set out in the sun to warm up. But if you read the article you will see that the shooter opened the bolt without waiting a minimum of 30 second . That mishap was the shooters fault.

 

[Slamfire]

Now not all mishaps are due to ammo. Like the guy that messed up his thumb shooting POF 303 ammo. It has been known for years that POF 303 British ammo will hang fire, unless set out in the sun to warm up. But if you read the article you will see that the shooter opened the bolt without waiting a minimum of 30 second . That mishap was the shooters fault.

Is that on the box? "Warm this ammunition in the sun, or in a toaster oven before shooting"? According to the article the shooter had a lot of dud's, and misfires. He had waited 15 seconds before opening the bolt, and then it went off. Maybe he should not have been shooting that stuff at all, that is my conclusion. Something with a lot of misfires is just going to cause problems.

The idea that everyone knows that PF303 should be warmed in the sun or a toaster oven, well I did not know that. And I think it is unreasonable to think that everyone should know that. I think this incident shows an ammunition problem. Not a toaster oven problem.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Is that on the box? "Warm this ammunition in the sun, or in a toaster oven before shooting"? According to the article the shooter had a lot of dud's, and misfires. He had waited 15 seconds before opening the bolt, and then it went off. Maybe he should not have been shooting that stuff at all, that is my conclusion. Something with a lot of misfires is just going to cause problems.

The idea that everyone knows that PF303 should be warmed in the sun or a toaster oven, well I did not know that. And I think it is unreasonable to think that everyone should know that. I think this incident shows an ammunition problem. Not a toaster oven problem.

Now I said nothing about a toaster oven. How stupid is that. You should know that when you have a dud, be it old, new or reloaded ammo, you wait 30 seconds before removing it from the chamber. Make the stupid mistake like that guy did and you can see how things can go wrong.
If I’m shouting Surplus ammo and have a batch that has a few duds, I stop shooting it. It’s not worth the trouble it could cause. And you’re right that guy shouldn’t have been shooting that ammo.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not but the AP bullets are not waste nor the primed brass (potentially although its life may be shortened to brittleness). You don't really want to fire black tip through a good bore anyway under normal conditions. Ammo collectors also pay a premium for black tip ammo as well.

To save what you have, pull the bullets, check the brass for deterioration (bad powder turns acidic due to stabilizers being used up), dump the powder, put new smokeless powder in, reseat bullets, and fire.
.

Nope, wasn't being sarcastic this time. Thanks for the info. Guess I need to find an ammo collector..?

 

[jonnyc]

Sorry to disappoint you, but ammo collectors have all the .30-06 AP ammo they need. Unless it's some never-before-seen experimental variation, it is a VERY common item, worth less than a buck.............if you can find someone who still needs one. Why does everyone think "collectors" want their junk? "Ammo collectors also pay a premium for black tip ammo as well." Nope, just not true. The only guys I see hot for black-tip '06 are shooters and reloaders.

 

[Slamfire]

You should know that when you have a dud, be it old, new or reloaded ammo, you wait 30 seconds before removing it from the chamber.

I think this is hindsight bias. You know that the accident happened, you know the time claimed (15 seconds) and therefore, 30 seconds is a better number. If the post had said the unfortunate had waited 30 seconds, would the correct time to wait be 1 min? And if one minute was claimed, would the correct number be 3 minutes? I doubt the shooter waited exactly 15 seconds, I don't keep a timer on the bench, I doubt the shooter does either, could have been more or less.

The fact of the matter is, old ammunition has problems, and thinking that there is some number, or a rabbit's foot somewhere that will prevent an accident, is wishful thinking. Instead of a hangfire, that shooter could have had a squib, next round down the barrel could have blown the barrel and action. The fact that the original owner of that ammunition, the Pakistani military, decided that ammunition was too dangerous to store, or issue, to its own troops, ought to be pointed out to potential buyers of surplus ammunition. But, it is not. I have never read anything in the popular in print press educating the shooting public about what "not to buy".