Internal Lock on S&W 44 mag.

[SunRunner]

Internal Lock on S&W

After reading through a number of threads and posts going back several years on this subject I became concerned as to the hard failure validity regarding the controversy over these internal locks failing at a very bad time. Not that anytime is a good time for a handgun to lockup.

With me, as I’m sure with many firearm owners, absolute reliability is paramount. After reading many opinions on both sides of this controversy and being the owner of two new S&W revolvers with the internal locks I really went through a bunch of Internet material. I was trying to find something solid that said, “I was shooting my gun and it lock up all by itself”. So far, to this, I’ve not been successful. It must be out there but I just haven’t found it.

Being a mechanical kind of person I fully understand mechanical things will fail. I also believe in the keep it simple method of design. I also think sharing information gained through hands on experience is valuable to all.

One of the new S&Ws is a 617-6, 4”, 22 long rifle. I’m really not too concerned about this one. The other, a 629, 6.5”, 44 mag. is the one I’m going to keep a close eye on.

I must also admit I purchased both of these revolvers prior to reading about the internal locks. Quite frankly at the time of purchase I paid them no mind basing my decision solely on the positive experience I had with pre-lock S&W.

Prior to reading about the locks I had only fired only about 100 rounds of 240 gr. SN Winchester through the 629. Most all of this was single action. What I did on Monday this week was fire 50 rounds of 180gr JHP High Velocity all in Double Action at a fairly quick rate of fire. Warmed up the gun pretty good.

What I notice during this range secession disturbed me. Although the gun did not lock up while in use I noticed the little indicator flag would sometimes be stuck part way up such that I could start to see the word LOCK on it. I didn’t fiddle with at the range but when I was cleaning the gun I discovered that after cocking the hammer I could quite easily pull the flag up with my fingernail and at that point the gun would lock up if I pulled the trigger.

I also notice that the side of the hammer is becoming scratched from rubbing against the internal locks flag. Also the flag will move a bit even when dry firing. Not enough to lock-up but enough for me to believe in the potential to lock, especially if the gun was hot and a little dirty with a fast rate of fire.

I’ve attached a couple pictures of the slight scratching on the side of the hammer. It’s not that I haven’t seen this type wear on my other S&Ws with out the locks, it’s the fact that this rubbing has a tendency to push the flag up as the hammer travels back.

This revolver only has 150 rounds through it so far. At this point in time I will continue to shoot it but I really don’t believe I trust it right now. In the past I carried my 29-2 a lot. At times it was rained on, snowed on, in freezing weather and a bit gritty when trail riding and I never worried about a built in safety devise locking it up. Maybe I’m being a little paranoid but after what I observed on Monday I believe that’s warranted.

 

[igorts]

I shot 400 rounds and never had any issue with the lock on my 629. I locked it only at home. unlocked equals to "no lock exist" in my case.
my $.02

 

[Shawn Michael]

OK

OK so what is the best way to disable/remove the thing? The recoil on my .50 could jar this thing if anything could.

I am sure this is a common gun smith task but if it is something you can take care of at home, I would like to know.

Looking at some old posts I see that a drop of locktite etc will be one way. Rather than having one more thing to worry about I'll just take if off if that can be done. I buy revolvers for the simplicty and reliablilty so I dont need this problem

 

[swbinak]

I've heard about the AirLite SC .357 & .44 Magnums having the possibility of locking up, but not the steel guns until this - kinda makes one reconsider buying a "new" S&W.

 

[Old Fuff]

SunRunner:

I am one of those who avoid the lock (which I consider to be an unnecessary risk) but I don't try to impose my opinion on others.

In your case, look at the hammer and see if it's centered in the frame's slot, or off to one side. If it's off to the left, Brownells (www.brownells.com) sells little washers or "bearings" that can be dropped on the hammer stud (pivot pin) that will push the hammer to the right and hopefully stop the hammer from rubbing against the safety and/or frame. Also it appears that there is a burr on the side of the flag, and I'd polish both sides of that part on a flat stone. This might, or might not cure your problem.

The High Road, as a matter of policy, does not recommend deactivating any safety device, but if I was to do such a thing I would remove the lock assembly, thread the hole, and install a plug for a better cosmetic appearance.

 

[dhoomonyou]

I am concerned...

I have a 66 with a lock.

After a range session with Magtech .357's the flag was "wiggly" AND I could NOT open the cylinder, I jiggled it till the flag went down and than was able to open.

This happened only once.

I saw a post on another board (dont remember which) about someones lock rusting.

I called S&W support and they said there is no "history" of such a happening.

BUT to be sure I could send it back in.

If it happens again that gun is GONE.

 

[18DAI]

Like you, I was concerned too. I joined here to get input on my purchase decision, after being away from handguns for some time. I went with pre lock revolvers, a 586 and 686 CS-1. For my brand new in the box itch, I bought a Ruger GP100. I think you are wise to be concerned.

 

[Zundfolge]

I was trying to find something solid that said, “I was shooting my gun and it lock up all by itself”. So far, to this, I’ve not been successful. It must be out there but I just haven’t found it.

The reason for that is that its not happened very often.

I wouldn't recommend removing the lock in you plan on using the gun as a self defense gun (because it might be difficult to explain to a jury why you disabled a "safety feature").

If you're concerned about the wear to the hammer, maybe put a little grease or something there.


If you really don't trust the lock and the gun is a self defense gun, consider buying a pre-lock gun.

 

[Smurfslayer]

That lock

is a storage safety feature. Any firearms expert would be happy to testify that in no way would that lock be intended to be in use while in a holster on a belt or on a nightstand because it would be impossible to unlock under pressure.

 

[SunRunner]

Thank You

I would like very much like to thank everybody for his or her input. After going back and double-checking everything that was suggested on my 629 I came up with the following.

The hammer is dead center in the frame and does not wiggle nor can it be moved sideways either way. The visible burr in the picture wound up being a tiny piece of my fingernail. But I still need to check the other side because of the scratches on the hammer.

The locking lever/flag does wiggle back and forth on the hammer stud and the spring that holds the locking lever/flag in its normally unlocked down position seams awful weak.

Defeating a safety devise on a handgun is really not advisable but because this specific lock was intended to be a storage safety devise vs. an operational safety it could be argued that the gun was not modified to be more lethal when in use. In checking in the safety and instruction manual it even specifically states; BIG RED LETTERS … WARNING; NEVER LOCK A LOADED HANDGUN. NEVER LOAD A LOCKED HANDGUN AND NEVER LOCK THE HANDGUN WITH THE HAMMER COCKED. (This is an interesting observation)

Taking this one step further, demonstrating any alternative accepted form of safe storage practice such as a gun safe could negate, from a professional point of view, any requirement for that specific lock to even be on the gun. Again not suggesting it be removed, just an observation.

IMHO this specific internal lock assembly, regardless of whether it is actually necessary or not, is a very poor design. If the locking lever/flag would have been designed to also be secured down in the unlock position, i.e. mechanically held firmly in place, as it is when in the lock position I believe the potential for failure during fire would be almost none existent.

I also think, IMO, during most single and double action firing that the chances of this locking lever just flipping up and locking the revolver for the next shot are also slim to none. But given the weak spring on the locking lever being the only thing holding it down I do believe that during rapid fire with magnum loads it’s possible for the recoil from one shot to suspend the lever such that it would be caught by the hammer during the subsequent cycle.

I’ve never had the side plate off an S&W but I wonder if just installing a much stronger spring on the lock lever is an option? I don’t even know what kind of spring is currently used. Does anybody have an opinion on doing this?

In the mean time I’ve already ordered 500 rounds of 240 gr. RNL 44 Special and 600 rounds of 240 gr SN .44 mag. and plan on giving it a good workout, lock in place, over the next month or so.

One side note; I now also agree with those that say the lock is ugly and serves no useful purpose on a revolver. I intend to tell that very point to S&W in writing. I believe they should have had many other options for providing secure storage without hacking up an otherwise tried and true handgun with a Band-Aid. Not that it’ll probably make any difference with them, I’m also going to let them know that my desire and plan to acquire a new 629 4” 44 mag and a 617 6” .22lr are on hold as long as that, IMO, worthless lock is on those handguns.

 

[Old Fuff]

Always keep in mind that the lock's real purpose is to protect Smith & Wesson from potential lawsuits, and insure they won't be frozen out of any markets if state (or federal) laws are passed or in place that require internal locks. What you want is unconsequental to them so long as they are selling product - which they are. They are well aware that they are losing some business over the lock, but they are willing to accept this as a necessary cost of doing business.

However as an individual, you have and can make other choices. Ultimately what you do is up to you.

 

[Taadski]

Sunrunner,

I'm a new forum member. I'm not interested in becoming involved in the lock vs no lock debate, but thought I'd share my experiences.

I currently own a model 617 4" as well as a 340pd. Both have the dreaded locks. I've put multiple thousands of rounds through the .22 and I'm pushing 1000 rounds through the pd also. The majority of shooting w/the 340 have been .38 jacketed 130 grain practice rounds. I've shot approximately 350 .38+Ps and about 200 .357 125 jhps using rapid strings of fire in which the weapon grew quite hot and I've observed no indications of problems w/the integral locks. I guess this goes w/out saying, but the recoil w/the pd w/magnum loads is considerable and probably approaches a "worst case scenario."

I realize this info doesn't rule out your concerns, but thought I'd pass it along for you to consider. Good luck with your deliberations.

Taadski.

 

[SunRunner]

Thank you and Apology

Taadski

Thanks for sharing your hands on experiences with your S&W. I too have about 3500 rounds through the 617 4”. Same as you I’ve experience no real functional problem what so ever with either of my new style S&W. However, it was not my imagination that was able to read the top of the word lock on the flag while firing 50 rounds double action last Monday. The lever was stuck part way up but did not create any functional problem. I was able to just push it down and no big deal I guess.

Basically, because this topic, overall, has become a point of contention I’m just going to drop it on this thread/forum for all time.

To satisfy myself I going to take a good friend and a very high-speed camera to the range to determine if that lever is jumping around like a toothpick in a hurricane as a result of the recoil because it’s secured only with a light spring. If it is jumping I will probably try a stiffer spring if that’s possible or eliminate it totally and the problem is solved. If not I’ll do nothing and leave it just like it is. Either way it’s an easy fix.

I would like to thank everyone who responded and basically would like to consider this thread closed to further input on this subject. I would also like to apologize if I’ve upset anyone by starting it.

 

[TexasRifleman]

The lever was stuck part way up but did not create any functional problem. I was able to just push it down and no big deal I guess.

Well, I know you wanted this to end, but this part I did have some experience with. I'm not entering the debate at all, just passing along what I was told.

This happened on my 629 too and I took it to a local 'smith.

He tells me that the movement of the indicator flag is not necessarily indicative of movement of the lock ie, the flag can move but the lock doesn't. They are not mechanically tied together directly.

The flag is pushed up by the locking mechanism being engaged but is not part of the lock itself so even if you managed to get the flag all the way up, the firearm would not be locked by that alone.

I have no way of verifying this since I am certainly not a gunsmith, just passing on what I was told by a long time 'smith here in Ft Worth.