A question about S&W internal locks

[SteadyD]

If you remove only the flag, can any of the other pieces of the internal lock interfere with the hammer and cause an issue?

I am considering having the lock removed since one of mine is malfunctioning, and as I keep any gun that isn’t being used safely locked up, the lock adds no additional safe storage for me.

I have contacted a company that can do an action job and remove the flag but they leave the rest of the lock parts in place. Will this create any chances of the remaining pieces interfering with the functionality?

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Nope, no problem. The flag is the lock and the rest is just the key-hole and its detent paraphernalia.

Why they do that is to most likely keep the key-hole filled rather than buy one of the plugs recently noted here.

Also, the flag can remain if the protruding portion pointed to in the first photo is removed. It engages where the second photo is pointing on the hammer.

Some like to leave the flag with the protrusion removed as well to avoid the left hammer-side gap it leaves once removed.

Todd.

 

[SteadyD]

So by removing the flag, none of the other parts can flop around and interfere with the hammer?

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

So by removing the flag, none of the other parts can flop around and interfere with the hammer?

Nope, no problem.

While they directly and indirectly interact with the flag, they are not retained by it.

Todd.

 

[jdavis123]

Good information provided by ApacheCoTod. If the remaining exterior lock parts bother you. You can order a filler plug to fill that will allow removal of the offending parts. Doing so will give your revolver a clean finished look.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

View attachment 896788 Good information provided by ApacheCoTod. If the remaining exterior lock parts bother you. You can order a filler plug to fill that will allow removal of the offending parts. Doing so will give your revolver a clean finished look.

Were you successful in removing the leftie-loosie *L* and arrow?

Todd.

 

[SteadyD]

View attachment 896788 Good information provided by ApacheCoTod. If the remaining exterior lock parts bother you. You can order a filler plug to fill that will allow removal of the offending parts. Doing so will give your revolver a clean finished look.

The aesthetics of the lock don’t bother me. I made a pair of custom rubber boot grips by hacking up a full size grip and they are beyond ugly. The lock seems minor in comparison! My one and only concern is that leaving the lock parts might allow some sort of interference with the hammer. I don’t recall where I read it, but someone said that a S&W rep said off the record that if you remove the lock, remove all of it to make sure everything functions properly. I am not learned enough in the mechanics of the internals to know whether the remaining pieces can somehow shift or move to cause a functional problem. My singular concern is proper function.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

The aesthetics of the lock don’t bother me. I made a pair of custom rubber boot grips by hacking up a full size grip and they are beyond ugly. The lock seems minor in comparison! My one and only concern is that leaving the lock parts might allow some sort of interference with the hammer. I don’t recall where I read it, but someone said that a S&W rep said off the record that if you remove the lock, remove all of it to make sure everything functions properly. I am not learned enough in the mechanics of the internals to know whether the remaining pieces can somehow shift or move to cause a functional problem. My singular concern is proper function.

I can completely see how some folk might, in a CYA way, note that there is a wildly extreme scenario in which otherwise unused parts might go flying willie-nillie about the interior once the flag portion is removed but I'm not seeing the opportunity - mechanically. In all truth, I'd be more concerned about the slot left open by fully removing the flag than about the remaining parts presenting a potential mechanical-failure of the pistol. And even at that the flag is but under a millimeter or .036 +/-.

I figure I'll go with no flag and a plug and put the original parts in the original box just in case. Or, just go back to buying a used flag and removing the lock-protrusion and that way, all is still filled as designed but there is ZERO chance of the added mechanism ever locking the guns. Either deliberately or accidentally.

One might argue that this latter is the way to go as the potential bearing surface of the flag is retained in the case of excessive lateral force being applied to the hammer; right to left while cocked or mid-stroke.

Todd.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

I would suggest sending it back to S&W to address the issue. Both for you now and future owners.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

I would suggest sending it back to S&W to address the issue. Both for you now and future owners.

He's already done that but this is all based upon having sent it back for a completely different issue and being returned with a lock malfunction rendering the pistol non-op.

I think he's once bitten on the issue and cares not to revisit the failure if possible.

Or, that's what I get from putting the two threads together.

OP's one of the people who has had the lock fail to non-op and it was in fact caused by a trip back to S&W.

Todd.

 

[jdavis123]

Were you successful in removing the leftie-loosie *L* and arrow?

Todd.

No, that photo doesn’t show a lot of detail. Here is a close-up.

 

[Pat Riot]

I haven’t had an internal lock malfunction. I hate to hear you are having problems, SteadyD.

It appears that the internal lock is sold separately at Numrich / Gun Parts Corp. If you wanted to buy one to experiment with they do sell them.
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/1398500A

Part number: 1398500A

 

[wagonburner]

So by removing the flag, none of the other parts can flop around and interfere with the hammer?

Yes

 

[sparkyv]

So just grind off the tab, Todd? That seems simple enough.

.
View attachment 896765

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

So just grind off the tab, Todd? That seems simple enough.

The little tab on the flag, yes. Not the hammer.

It's also the thing to do if an older *Target* hammer is installed and the lock parts are to remain - if inoperative.

But don't overheat the flag body. Easy enough to take it down with a file too. Of course, removed from the pistol first.

Todd.

 

[Rule3]

There is no need to grind anything. Just take the darn flag out.

 

[SteadyD]

Is there no chance that the little piece that moves to engage the flag can become loose and interrupt the movement of the hammer?

Also, what might happen if the flag is heated while grinding off the tab?

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Is there no chance that the little piece that moves to engage the flag can become loose and interrupt the movement of the hammer?

Also, what might happen if the flag is heated while grinding off the tab?

The flag has no retention value regarding the lock, detent or spring. They'll all stay in place.

As far as overheating it - I just wouldn't want to take a chance on warping it. Almost certainly won't but why risk it.

That little tab comes right off. No muss, no fuss. File it down to next to nothing and then either a dremel polishing bit or a stone to be dead certain.

It's a very small matter in the end and allows the flag to remain as a spacer for the frame and lateral bearing surface for the hammer.

Todd.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

You'll see here - to alleviate any concerns - that with the flag slid upwards and fully separated from the lock-work (as if it had been removed altogether) that the lock is held in place by a fork (pushed into place by the blue spring) and the fork is held in place by a slot in the frame.
All VERY secure. One must very deliberately push that fork back against the spring in order for the lock to be removed. Just is not going to happen accidentally in any scenario that I can figure.

But - I still like having it there with the tab removed for reasons stated above however, I like to remove the tab from a sacrificial flag and leave the original in a zip-lock with the pistol.


Todd.

 

[SteadyD]

I contacted the company and they said they can remove the flag entirely or just remove the tab on the flag. I am inclined to have them grind off the tab and leave the flag. Does anyone think the other option is better?

 

[wagonburner]

I contacted the company and they said they can remove the flag entirely or just remove the tab on the flag. I am inclined to have them grind off the tab and leave the flag. Does anyone think the other option is better?

Remove the flag. That way you can always revert to std if you sell.

While I haven’t tried it myself, I suspect that removing the tab will allow the flag rotate up an down during recoil. Not a good thing.

The S&W lockwork wasn’t designed to have that flag. It’s a quick and dirty “fix” to appease the anti gun crowd. It’s not there to improve the guns performance.

 

[SteadyD]

I hadn’t thought about the flag flopping around.

 

[straightshooterjake]

If i wanted to do anything with the flag or the lock, I would get one of the plugs that fills the lock hole. The presence of a plug makes it very clear that the lock has been disabled. The plug also looks better, but in this case, that is not the important part.

As silly as it sounds, the lock on S&W revolvers is a safety device that was included on the factory stock revolver. I would not make, or recommend, any modification where a factory safety feature appeared to work, but was in fact disabled.

I know many people will say "it's my gun, and no one will ever use that lock." But it is very difficult to say with certainty where the gun will be in 20 years, and what you, or anyone, will remember about the work that was done.

So plugging the lock hole looks better, and it also makes certain that no one will ever think the gun was locked when it really was not.

 

[SteadyD]

If i wanted to do anything with the flag or the lock, I would get one of the plugs that fills the lock hole. The presence of a plug makes it very clear that the lock has been disabled. The plug also looks better, but in this case, that is not the important part.

As silly as it sounds, the lock on S&W revolvers is a safety device that was included on the factory stock revolver. I would not make, or recommend, any modification where a factory safety feature appeared to work, but was in fact disabled.

I know many people will say "it's my gun, and no one will ever use that lock." But it is very difficult to say with certainty where the gun will be in 20 years, and what you, or anyone, will remember about the work that was done.

So plugging the lock hole looks better, and it also makes certain that no one will ever think the gun was locked when it really was not.

This is certainly a good point, but does the plug have the potential to move or shift and impede the hammer at all? Do you know of any pictures that show how it is sitting from the inside that could give me some help visualizing it?

 

[straightshooterjake]

This is certainly a good point, but does the plug have the potential to move or shift and impede the hammer at all? Do you know of any pictures that show how it is sitting from the inside that could give me some help visualizing it?

There are at least two or three small shops making plugs, and I believe the designs vary a bit. I have not tried any of them, but I probably will at some point. One thing I do know is that all of the plugs are favored by people who want to avoid problems with the lock.

I am sure google can provide some pictures of how the plugs fit in. Or you could contact one of the manufacturers. I am sure they will be happy to explain how the plug is firmly retained in place, and probably include pictures.