Probably common knowledge to most on this forum but this old man was amazed at the internet pricing of a rifle/ scope/ base, rings purchase I was researching. With sales tax included, I saved (about) $383.00 on a Model 70 Extreme Weather, Leupold V3i 3.5-10x40 and Leupold base/ rings. I spoke with my LGS buddy about a purchase thru his shop; he stated that the rifle and components were all below his cost - he advised that I make the purchase from the net - several bucks variance I can understand but several hundred dollars is amazing - a very different retail world than I grew up in! Good shooting.
Internet Gun Purchase
- Thread starter Steve S.
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Riomouse911
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That's why Amazon, et al. are killing brick and mortar retail. Easy to have a warehouse, internet ads/auction pages, a few warehousemen and just ship. It's much harder to own or rent space for a store, pay decent (knowledgeable) salespeople, have display inventory, pay tax on everything, insurance, etc.
DDDWho
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I've had similar experiences. My local FFL has a gun shop in his garage. (He kept his day job). I deal with him because he only charges $10 for a transfer. I've only bought 1 gun from him because he can't match prices I find online. I always give him a chance tho by telling him the price I found and telling him "If you can do it for that let's deal". He's a good guy and understands his limitations.... I like him
The last gun I bought from Grabagun. I emailed him the price to which is responded "I can't buy them for that wholesale". Also a disadvantage for him is sales tax of over 8%. Although he only charges $10 I usually give him $20.
The last gun I bought from Grabagun. I emailed him the price to which is responded "I can't buy them for that wholesale". Also a disadvantage for him is sales tax of over 8%. Although he only charges $10 I usually give him $20.
Of course, if everyone chases the lowest price regardless of the consequences, what's going to happen to that LGS you were talking to? Are they going to be around the next time you need something right now? Or something out of the ordinary?
I can buy things on-line that are at prices below what the distributors are charging my LGS, but I still pay the extra amount to keep my LGS alive so that it will be there when I need it.
I understand the business side of brick and mortar and supporting the local LGS; what I do not understand is that if I can get on the web as a “civilian” nobody and buy below my LGS’s cost of everything I just purchased, then why can’t he (the LGS) do the same thing?
il.bill
Member
I can "do the same thing" but to what avail. By the time you add on my profit (even a miserly 10%) and the sales tax (7.35%) I am 20% or so higher than what you would pay. I get online sellers that do not even stock things and simply 'drop ship' from my local distributor. When I ask the transfer customer what he paid for the firearm it is usually less than my dealer cost from that same distributor. It seems silly at times to invest $500 on a firearm just to 'make' $50 on the sale when I can 'make' $25 doing a transfer.
I have had more than one customer buy online because he could save $20 on a $500 gun! It would not surprise me to see the small LGS dry up and blow away in the next couple of decades. The internet has definitely changed things, but there are opportunities for 'kitchen table' dealers to do a brisk business in firearm transfers, I suppose.
iL.bill above noted part of what I was going to post before I posted it.
I have no idea about the gun business wholesalers personally other than what I read or been told by dealers but do know that it is common in retail where many companies require that you buy a certain amount from them or their approved wholesalers if you want to be a dealer, get accessories, spare parts, etc. and often they will drop you if you don't sell enough. The internet has disrupted this model--for example, if you need a Ford part--you can now check Ford prices on that part everywhere and buy the cheapest. Thus, some dealers become big online, get volume discounts, and can now sell the parts even cheaper, etc. However, this also deprives your local Ford dealer of income from parts which either results in higher service/labor costs on repairs, higher car prices off of the lot, or the dealer loses money and closes its door or sells to another dealer. Look at how shopping malls are dying except for things that aren't as easy to sell online--clothes, shoes, drug stores, and cheapo dollar stores, and services such as haircuts/restaurants/jewelry and so on.
Second, how would you have felt if the gun dealer got that same rifle and added his markup for his overhead, inventory expenses, and time. A lot of posters seem to think that a LGS can sell at the same price as online and is cheating the customer if they don't. No win for the dealer. The internet would still be cheaper and the dealer now has a gun in inventory that might not sell. Some LGS's will order the stuff for you if you pay up front at a fixed percentage or dollar amount but the rifle ordered is "yours" at that point and forgo the transfer fee--they can get stuff shipped cheaper in ways that average joe cannot.
I suspect that the best LGS's make most of their money off of used guns and accessories nowadays and that might not cut it in a small market much more.
I have no idea about the gun business wholesalers personally other than what I read or been told by dealers but do know that it is common in retail where many companies require that you buy a certain amount from them or their approved wholesalers if you want to be a dealer, get accessories, spare parts, etc. and often they will drop you if you don't sell enough. The internet has disrupted this model--for example, if you need a Ford part--you can now check Ford prices on that part everywhere and buy the cheapest. Thus, some dealers become big online, get volume discounts, and can now sell the parts even cheaper, etc. However, this also deprives your local Ford dealer of income from parts which either results in higher service/labor costs on repairs, higher car prices off of the lot, or the dealer loses money and closes its door or sells to another dealer. Look at how shopping malls are dying except for things that aren't as easy to sell online--clothes, shoes, drug stores, and cheapo dollar stores, and services such as haircuts/restaurants/jewelry and so on.
Second, how would you have felt if the gun dealer got that same rifle and added his markup for his overhead, inventory expenses, and time. A lot of posters seem to think that a LGS can sell at the same price as online and is cheating the customer if they don't. No win for the dealer. The internet would still be cheaper and the dealer now has a gun in inventory that might not sell. Some LGS's will order the stuff for you if you pay up front at a fixed percentage or dollar amount but the rifle ordered is "yours" at that point and forgo the transfer fee--they can get stuff shipped cheaper in ways that average joe cannot.
I suspect that the best LGS's make most of their money off of used guns and accessories nowadays and that might not cut it in a small market much more.
ColtPythonElite
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I have a friend with a very successful gun store. He welcomes internet purchases. First, he gets a transfer fee. Second he might sell some ammo, case or other accessories. Third, he says the sale just puts another gun the area that he might take in on trade later down the road.
milemaker13
Member
That's a great attitude. Unfortunately, no amount of complaining and whining is going to change things.
Sounds like your guy has adapted to thrive in the new market place. Good for him.
The LGS I visit does a lot of transfers, but they also have a lot of used guns. Ive done several transfers thru them, but was very happy when I found a rifle I liked it their used rack.
The other LGS in my area has a range with maybe 40 lanes. They also do classroom stuff, tactical shoots, CCW, etc. Their store has a lot of new and used guns.
A brand new range near work has a monthly pass that costs less than 2 regular visits. I wish the place close to home offered something similar but they don't. I would visit several times a week if they did, buying targets, maybe ammo, maybe rent a few guns...
I guess I just do not understand brick and mortar and the internet influence as much as I thought - I made my internet purchase of a new rifle, scope and base/ rings from a “store front” operation (they sell brick/ mortar retail and internet - they are a family operation) - thus my question. Why can’t my LGS exercise the same model - none in my locale that I know of - he could be the first.
Captcurt
Member
I would be happy to make 10% on a new gun. Lucky to get 5%. That is why I turned to online consignment sales. I can make more on someone's used guns that I can on a new one and I don't have the overhead of a store, plus I don't have to run background checks. Just ship it to a dealer and log it in your book.
Can't say the same for accessories. Used scopes, slings, mounts and etc, do good to bring half price, but by buying discontinued scopes on clearance I can profit 30%+.
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$50 difference and I go thru my LGS. But really, my LGS will order me anything +10%, skip transfer fee, and throw in a cheap box of ammunition. That’s good enough. Don’t really even shop around anymore. They’re a dealer on most things I generally shop for so they have good deals. If they’re not a dealer then the price can be high and they’ll even tell me where to find it cheaper. I need them to stay in business and a lot of people around here feel the same way. They’re usually busy.
I've only bought a couple guns online. Both times were at a place a coworker recommended for $15 a transfer. The transfer went through a place that specialized in self defense handguns.neither was a self defense handgun. One was a military surplus handgun and the other was a surplus rifle. Nothing the store carried in stock.
I bought a mix of expensive ammo and cheap ammo to test for the two guns. Not sure how long they spent with whatever carried delivered the guns, but I only interacted with the clerk's for about 15 minutes for a background check each time and they probably got about $110 in transfer fees and ammo markup on the transfer.
I prefer to buy at stores in person, but I don't think brick and mortar stores are at much risk if they can turn over guns that quick ordered online. They probably waste more time with guys asking if they can handle a certain gun.
I bought a mix of expensive ammo and cheap ammo to test for the two guns. Not sure how long they spent with whatever carried delivered the guns, but I only interacted with the clerk's for about 15 minutes for a background check each time and they probably got about $110 in transfer fees and ammo markup on the transfer.
I prefer to buy at stores in person, but I don't think brick and mortar stores are at much risk if they can turn over guns that quick ordered online. They probably waste more time with guys asking if they can handle a certain gun.
CLP
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Much of this is the evolution of the economy. LGS's have to adapt and find new ways to be relevant in their local economy other than strictly being a gun/ammo supplier. I agree it sucks that this causes businesses to shut down but I also think it spurs innovation and there will be smart ones that adapt and find a niche that the Bud's, CTD's, etc cannot compete with. Gunsmithing services, indoor ranges, etc are a couple of things a local LGS here in Bham does and it's worked well for them. One thing that won't help LGS's is to have uninformed or haughty employees that turn people off from returning. LGS's have to start thinking outside the box-store and become more service-oriented.
And this other aspect isn't really so much a disadvantage of your LGS as it is more of a case where the consumer simply isn't paying tax on items purchased online. Unless you're state has no sales tax, most every state requires you to pay a sales or usage tax, but there's no way for them to know that it's not being paid and I imagine few people actually pay taxes on items bought online (though many more retailers like Amazon are now charging tax). However, there often is a difference between what the state expects to be paid in tax and the additional amount that local sales taxes would cost (which is why high sales taxes often drives businesses out of these areas, leaving the area short of jobs and tax revenue). I have a medical practice along a highway- on my side the sales tax is 5% and across the street it's 11% (and I think it's supposed to go to 12% this year so I've been told). That's a hefty difference. Local governments can do more to keep businesses thriving. God knows they do everything to make it hard enough. You know I pay a business privilege tax?? A tax for the privilege of creating a business that generates a butt-load of income tax, has created four full time jobs, and provides a needed service to the community- and I need to pay an additional tax for the privilege of doing that...
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There's a factor being missed. An internet site retailing to the public has the ability to purchase at lower discounts due to higher volumes. The manufacturers create this issue - if you want to be a dealer with the lowest discounts you then are required to buy the "package" which includes the majority of product they make. With the internet and 50 states + as a market, you can sell them all. As a single location in a medium sized town the assortment and quantity are simply too large to turn over in a reasonable time factor. You wind up losing money on them when two years down the road your market still refuses to by the odd models and the maker is demanding you buy more to keep your discount.
This is why the internet is doing ok but your local LGS? He's having to buy from one of them and then mark it up, add shipping, then his profit. If the maker would offer, say, a single AR lower to him for $29 it would be ok, nope, you have to buy 25 or 50 and then you are stuck with all the others.
Chain franchise stores get around it as shipping one each to the other stores then spreads the merchandise over a larger territory and you get the one guy who will buy the lower at each location.
The point is that with volume buying discounts the product maker holds the cards. He sells to the buyers who will take a lot of his product off his hands and they in turn get a market advantage buy selling at lower prices than the onesy twosy Mom and Pop location. If you intend to buy at the lowest possible price - you have no choice but to patronize internet sources until such time the chain stores can pick up that line of goods.
The business model really hasn't changed at all - we just have perceived a change. What we used to do looking for that lowest price was scan trade magazines, read classifieds in the back of sporting publications, or pick up a copy of Shotgun News. Now we go to the internet to purchase just as directly and have it shipped to our door step. Remember Conetrol rings? Nothing has really changed for them. Cabela's used to work thru catalog sales only - I well remember the days they were one of the few outlets for hunting Goretex. Nobody in 50 miles had it - until Bass Pro started selling it in the next metro.
If you want exotic or new bleeding edge stuff, the local LGS never carried it in the first place. We always went out to a national level marketer who had the goods,
This is why the internet is doing ok but your local LGS? He's having to buy from one of them and then mark it up, add shipping, then his profit. If the maker would offer, say, a single AR lower to him for $29 it would be ok, nope, you have to buy 25 or 50 and then you are stuck with all the others.
Chain franchise stores get around it as shipping one each to the other stores then spreads the merchandise over a larger territory and you get the one guy who will buy the lower at each location.
The point is that with volume buying discounts the product maker holds the cards. He sells to the buyers who will take a lot of his product off his hands and they in turn get a market advantage buy selling at lower prices than the onesy twosy Mom and Pop location. If you intend to buy at the lowest possible price - you have no choice but to patronize internet sources until such time the chain stores can pick up that line of goods.
The business model really hasn't changed at all - we just have perceived a change. What we used to do looking for that lowest price was scan trade magazines, read classifieds in the back of sporting publications, or pick up a copy of Shotgun News. Now we go to the internet to purchase just as directly and have it shipped to our door step. Remember Conetrol rings? Nothing has really changed for them. Cabela's used to work thru catalog sales only - I well remember the days they were one of the few outlets for hunting Goretex. Nobody in 50 miles had it - until Bass Pro started selling it in the next metro.
If you want exotic or new bleeding edge stuff, the local LGS never carried it in the first place. We always went out to a national level marketer who had the goods,
Lowest cost for the same product gets my money. True capitalism. Look at a Sears and Roebuck catalog from say the 1890's. It will become apparent that Amazon is doing with Internet sales what Sears did with a mail catalog 120 years ago.
Local stores survived Sears back then because a good portion of people had to try before they would buy. That 120 year old need is mostly gone now, except for cars, etc.
A good portion of us have a need to talk, touch and feel before we buy. I don't have this need for most purchases, but because there is a need by many, local stores will likely survive Amazon.
Local stores survived Sears back then because a good portion of people had to try before they would buy. That 120 year old need is mostly gone now, except for cars, etc.
A good portion of us have a need to talk, touch and feel before we buy. I don't have this need for most purchases, but because there is a need by many, local stores will likely survive Amazon.
CLP
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Again, LGS's have to think differently now. I don't know why there's not an association of local gun store owners that join together for purchasing power (something akin to a co-op). Many businesses in other professions. This is how independent pharmacists are able to obtain drugs at prices which allow them to compete with retain chains. Why not LGS's too? If they did that, then I can imagine you'd see some real deals in your LGS- no to mention some occasional cool exclusives.
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chicharrones
needs more ammo
Many small dealers out there are also retailers of a web based distribution company such as Gallery of Guns or Gearfire. Due to this, a buyer can go to that small dealer's web store and purchase what they want, but the dealer didn't do anything other than get an electronic notice that a purchase is coming to their store via an internet sale.
I've done it a few times myself through the years.
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CLP
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Yes, but this isn't quite what I was talking about.
jonnyc
Member
You can't handle/fondle 7 different Glock 17s or 19s on-line, not to mention side-x-side comparisons between 4 or 5 different brands. I sometimes spend up to an hour with a customer trying to help them make up their mind..........and sometimes they actually buy one!
I guess a quick plea is due here.......please don't waste the salesman's time too much; we aren't there for your entertainment, or to occupy you while your wife is at the pet shop next door. You're costing us money if we can't get to a customer who is ready to buy. Be understanding and willing to let go.
Thank you.
I guess a quick plea is due here.......please don't waste the salesman's time too much; we aren't there for your entertainment, or to occupy you while your wife is at the pet shop next door. You're costing us money if we can't get to a customer who is ready to buy. Be understanding and willing to let go.
Thank you.
CapnMac
Member
All retailers are in a bad way, as we, the buying public, have become accustomed to being able to get nearly bespoke versions of most of the things we want. Even things like phones, where we "buy off the shelf" get all sorts of custom features (our contact and messaging lists, etc.), and we fully expect to customize those after the fact.
Manufacturers are meeting those demands, too, offering all sorts of versions for their products.
Which creates a retail dilemma--there's almost no way you can stock every variation of every product simply. But, they can have a catalog front that can. The catalog front also takes up no floor space, and has no shipping tare to put "floor models" on display. So, items in the catalog are, by definition, cheaper than touchable stock on a sales floor.
Firearms are no different.
Brick-and-mortar LGS is barely going to be able to have more than 3-4 variant of a given arm from a given manufacturer. Which then multiplies with the number of manufacturers. And, naturally, if you leave one out, that's the exact thing a "walk in" actually wants to see. Which means your not having it a potential lost sale. Far easier for a web-based seller to get 5 of a kind of thing and get a discount for the "volume buy" and then let national marketing sell off the other four, than for a store to do the same.
Manufacturers are meeting those demands, too, offering all sorts of versions for their products.
Which creates a retail dilemma--there's almost no way you can stock every variation of every product simply. But, they can have a catalog front that can. The catalog front also takes up no floor space, and has no shipping tare to put "floor models" on display. So, items in the catalog are, by definition, cheaper than touchable stock on a sales floor.
Firearms are no different.
Brick-and-mortar LGS is barely going to be able to have more than 3-4 variant of a given arm from a given manufacturer. Which then multiplies with the number of manufacturers. And, naturally, if you leave one out, that's the exact thing a "walk in" actually wants to see. Which means your not having it a potential lost sale. Far easier for a web-based seller to get 5 of a kind of thing and get a discount for the "volume buy" and then let national marketing sell off the other four, than for a store to do the same.
I support my LGS with transfers, and I have consigned about 20 guns for him to sell at 10% commission. I haven't bought a NEW gun since 1977, and almost all of my purchases are from auctions. But, I know from looking that he's not close to the on-line prices. He DOES have decent business with first time gun buyers who need advice.
NIGHTLORD40K
Member
My LGS doesn't do new guns at all- but he does a brisk business nonetheless. His store front is on the main drag here and he turns over product rapidly. Locals know this is the place to see something different every day and he's always buying high quality used guns the big guys won't touch. No Hi-points here.
Want a pinned and recessed S&W? Drop by a couple times a week, you'll find a nice one. Need a Mauser? He's got 11 lined up right now from every country in South America. How 'bout a Winchester Mod.12 or vintage Ruger Standard? In stock and ready to rock. German paratrooper Gravity Knife? No problem.
Milsurps and collectibles may a niche market, but it works for him.
This is MY happy place!
Want a pinned and recessed S&W? Drop by a couple times a week, you'll find a nice one. Need a Mauser? He's got 11 lined up right now from every country in South America. How 'bout a Winchester Mod.12 or vintage Ruger Standard? In stock and ready to rock. German paratrooper Gravity Knife? No problem.
Milsurps and collectibles may a niche market, but it works for him.
This is MY happy place!
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