Internet sales of ammo, guns and components

[rajb123]

Much has been made recently about the illeged violent criminal suspect in Colorado who, apparently, purchased guns, ammo and components (powder, caps etc.) legally from the Net.

The media is focusing on Interent sales and it seems like a huge push is underway to get new legislation that restricts Internet sales passed through Congress.

My local gun store is 40 miles away, so I make use of the Net often.

Consequently, any new restrictions on Interenet sales would have a major impact on my rights.

How often do you buy on the Internet and do you care if this is prohibited by new gun legislation?

 

[hso]

You're incorrect.

Guns were purchased legally and locally. So no guns were purchased from the net. Make pains to point this out to anyone who claims otherwise.

So far only the "tactical" web gear has been show to have come from an internet source. A tac vest, mag pouches, and a knife. That's all that's been confirmed. Where any armor came from hasn't been revealed.

The fixation on ammunition sales are purely misleading. There 6 cases of ammo couldn't be carried by a single person, weren't in the car stashed out back, and no trips to the car to resupply were made. How much ammunition was purchased is a purely irrelevant to the crime since it appears that only a tiny fraction of it was taken out of the apartment and there was no reload of the AR and the 870 couldn't carry more than 9.

 

[holdencm9]

I buy ammo off the internet a lot because they usually have better prices.

The nearest Cabela's is an hour away and Gander Mountain and Dick's have terrible prices usually. Sometimes Fleet Farm has good deals, (they are about a half hour away) but their selection is hit or miss.

The sad thing is when I buy at a store, the purchases usually aren't too big, but when I buy online I usually "stock up" because it seems like the shipping doesn't always increase proportional to the amount you buy (so for $50 worth of ammo the shipping may be $10, but for $200 worth of ammo the shipping is only $20) so I try to take advantage of that, and will subsequently be eyed with suspicion from now on?!?!?

 

[Sig Bill]

Well, they can go ahead and restrict internet sales on cars, baseball bats, tobacco, etc etc etc.

They kill people too.

 

[CDW4ME]

I use the internet to get specific ammunition that is not locally available, for example: 10mm and .223 bullets that are designed for deer hunting.

I could drive to Gander Mt. and buy several 420 round ammo cans full of .223 FMJ, (without using the internet) but that's not what I want.

I could buy SD ammo in little 20 round boxes, if I wanted to pay too much.

Likewise, I could go to Wal-Mart and pay the same price for white box HP (assuming the caliber I want is available) as I can get premium ammo for.

Restriction of internet sales on ammo would be an inconvenience and add unnecessary expense for me.

 

[Texan Scott]

Also, a lot of people who've never even SEEN gunbroker.com et al. seem to think people actually "buy guns over the internet" the way people buy baby booties... and it's just not so.
Please explain to people you know that guns are not "purchased" over the internet... sales are brokered, and sometimes payments made, electronically... but the actual POINT OF PURCHASE is in the office of a FEDERALLY LICENSED FIREARMS DEALER, who is required to comply with ALL applicable federal, state, and local laws regarding background checks, legal restrictions, waiting periods, etc, etc, etc.
Please stress this to your momentarily hoplophobic friends... have them put their heads between their knees and breathe into a paper bag if they have to... the internet is NOT making an 'end run' around the law.

 

[silicosys4]

I can go to Wal-Mart and buy enough smokeless powder to make one hell of a media racket, and all I have to do is not shave, and go through the self-checkout line. The teller see's from her register that I'm over 18 and approves from her till 20 feet away, no ID shown, out the door I go. Somehow that's safer and more idiot proof than paying shipping, and hazardous materials fee's, and having my name and mailing address on record as having accepted shipments of ammunition components? Some people really get caught up in a fervor without thinking things through at all.

 

[Sig Bill]

Hmm... good points guys.

 

[Dreamliner787]

Those that are anti will always be anti regardless of the facts. In most carbine training classes especially if it's multi-days the amount of ammo needed would be about 1000 rounds or more. So having 1000 rounds of 223/556 ammo is not that big of a deal. The anti-gun crowd would freak out for anyone who has more than one box of ammo.

 

[Nico Testosteros]

The main fallout I fear from this tragedy on sales of internet ammo is that it'll be harder to find it in stock. I think the CO shooting just jumpstarted the ammo hoarding.

 

[Texan Scott]

Those that are anti will always be anti regardless of the facts.

Go to any university with a medical program... watch outside the medical building and notice how the nursing students pour out every 50 to 75 minutes (hour to hour-na-half academic time) and bolt 50 feet to the inch from the front door to light up cigarettes.
Knowing a thing to be true... even being SHOWN IN GRUESOME DETAIL that a thing is true, does not have a lot to do with how (even intelligent) people think or behave much of the time.
Guns are not the cause of violent crime. Gun control does not stop violent crime. These things are not only statistically demonstrable, they are EVIDENT AND OBSERVABLE, if one cares to look. Facts may help an open-minded person, but hardened antis will never allow fact to 'confuse' them.
We can try to educate, but if that fails, there's no point ARGUING with them... just vote them down.

 

[barnbwt]

purchased guns, ammo and components (powder, caps etc.) legally from the Net.

I wasn't aware he had components at his place, I suppose that's what the "unidentified chemical containers" were... Not that that isn't hazardous in a fire situation, but they made it sound like he had bathtub Anthrax in there, or something. I did read he had home-made "Napalm" in his fire bombs, so I guess they'll be banning REDACTED and REDACTED going forward

TCB

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

He likely would had killed more people had he used some IEDs in the theater. Trying to correct these things after the fact, by putting more restrictions on the law-abiding is just idiotic.
Everything you can do to harm another person or property with a firearm is already illegal. Maybe we should make it "double dog illegal!" That'll do it.
The only thing that will stop these crazy people is good people present to physically stop them before they can do much damage. Emotional responses about "how easy it is" to get this or that does nothing. And that's all the anti-gun crowd has.

 

[Sam1911]

Not sure how much traction this would really get. If he can't purchase A GUN via the internet & shipped to his home, how does how many rounds of ammo he could buy matter even a little bit?

So, rajb123, where is this big push? Who is writing this legislation?

 

[Fishslayer]

Everything you can do to harm another person or property with a firearm is already illegal. Maybe we should make it "double dog illegal!" That'll do it.

They should make theaters gun free safe zones...

...oh wait...

 

[btg3]

IMO, the shipping regulations/policies for handguns have already crossed the line and infringe on RKBA.

 

[Mobuck]

The purchase of such a large amount of ammo and then the passive way he gave up tells me he was just "following orders". I'm not an expert on any of this but it seems very strange. Then again, you can't determine the action of a really crazy person.
Facts are fuzzy and there are many factors that I find strange (if true).
It does point to one outstanding truism=you need to be prepared to protect yourself because in the real time of response a lot of people can get hurt.

 

[rajb123]

Texan Scott said:
Also, a lot of people who've never even SEEN gunbroker.com et al. seem to think people actually "buy guns over the internet" the way people buy baby booties... and it's just not so.
Please explain to people you know that guns are not "purchased" over the internet... sales are brokered, and sometimes payments made, electronically... but the actual POINT OF PURCHASE is in the office of a FEDERALLY LICENSED FIREARMS DEALER, who is required to comply with ALL applicable federal, state, and local laws regarding background checks, legal restrictions, waiting periods, etc, etc, etc.
Please stress this to your momentarily hoplophobic friends... have them put their heads between their knees and breathe into a paper bag if they have to... the internet is NOT making an 'end run' around the law.


Legally, I believe the title to a gun purchased on the Net changes hands at the point in time that the seller ships the gun to the buyer. If title changed hands at the local FFL location, the FFL would be required to collect state and local sales tax which does not ocurr; right?

So the guns from gunbroker.com are in fact sold over the Internet but there is nothing inherently wrong, illegal or evil about this arrangement.

 

[rajb123]

Who is trying to pursuade Congress to restrict Internet sales?

Mayor Bloomberg, CNN, CNBC, MSNBC, the NY Times and several other media outlets have strongly stated that Internet sales should be banned.

 

[slow944]

My wife and I had this argument last night at dinner. Her side: More Gun Control.
My Side: We already have more than enough gun laws on the books and gun laws are only OBEYED by law abidding citizens, not criminals. I asked why there were no CHL people in the theater that could have possibly stopped him from killing and injuring so many after he started shooting.

 

[Blue Line]

good point Slow, i wish this board had a like button for posts because several folks make some excellent points

 

[medalguy]

The theater already had signs posted banning carrying a firearm into the theatre. THAT alone should have been enough to stop Mr. Holmes from bringing all those evil black guns inside. What, that didn't work? Well clearly he didn't stop to read the signs, because everyone else did and left their defensive guns at home.

 

[Remllez]

Slow944 is on the right track.....this guy in Colorado may have legally bought everything he used in this crime....What the antis and politicians are skipping over is the fact that this guy was " NUTS ".....

A SANE person could have and does buy guns and ammo off the Internet just like this guy, but we go to the range, or hunting for our sport not to a theater and KILL PEOPLE!! The media, antis and politicians are conveniently skipping over the fact that Insane people do irrational acts everyday.

We can't allow as law abiding citizens let certain people include us in the same category as this fellow in Colorado, simply by association. It's akin to saying, every person that owns an airplane will crash it into a building and kill as many people as he can!!

Their flawed logic is being gobbled up like chocolate pudding by people that are ill informed by the media et al. I am of the opinion that I have a duty to help inform people that this guy is the exception not the rule in the gun owning community.

A million gun owners may well have gone to a range and shot a million rounds at nothing but paper targets the same day this guy killed those innocent people, because we are sane law abiding people!

So don't allow yourself to be drawn into illogical arguments with people that can't accept the fact this guy wasn't normal. And our community proves that everyday off the week by not killing innocent people with OUR GUNS.

 

[k-frame]

Mayor Bloomberg, CNN, CNBC, MSNBC, the NY Times and several other media outlets have strongly stated that Internet sales should be banned.

True, but except for Bloomberg himself, none of those organizations can actually cast a ballot. And the voters seem to have said - via the majority of representatives they elect and/or support - that current restrictions are adequate.

Which isn't to say that a congress critter couldn't introduce a bill tomorrow to block e-sales of firearms and associated products. But it would likely die in committee. More likely is legislation to require e-tailers to collect sales tax for all 50 states. That would be (probably) a boon for every LGS but might hurt those who make a business out of FFL transfers.