Intresting.... Glock Tested thread
- Thread starter Runningman
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Lone_Gunman
Member
What do you mean exactly by "everyone of them shot better"?
If what you mean is that their groups tightened up a little bit while shooting at static targets, are you really sure that even matters in a real world situation?
Does it help if I say "every one" of them shot better with my M&P? That is pretty self explanatory. Same shooter, better groups, the convention methods of determining better shooting were applied and the shooters themselves remarked they did in fact shoot better with the M&P. Its not so hard to believe for me, I shot their Glocks and while I found the trigger crisper and shorter it took a lot more concentration to shoot as well with the Glock as my M&P.
Lone_Gunman
Member
Is there any way to quantitate "better"? Thats all am I asking. For example, if they were shooting 3" groups with a Glock, and then 2" groups with your M&P, I would say that although that is better, it might be of no practical concern in an actual confrontation.
This is before he buried it,
http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Item
You say in a confrontation it MIGHT not be important but there are a lot of other things that MIGHT not be important either. Do you ignore them also? If so, what are those things? I want to know if I'm wasting all my time practicing and doing drills on the range when you seem to know what will be more important in a confrontation. Personally, I think proficiency with your weapon and the ability to shoot naturally and accurately are valuable traits and worthy of note. Recently I have started to transition to a HK P7 as my carry gun. It points naturally and shoots even more accurately than my M&P. Is it likely I will NEED that extra accuracy? Maybe not but why would I not seek every advantage I can? What if I miss my target by an inch? Wouldn't have the weapon I shoot more accurately have given me an advantage?
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JohnBT
Member
This is great info. Now I know what to buy if I ever decide to bury a gun in the dirt and leave it for a year or two. You know, or freeze one in water in the refrigerator. Maybe I should freeze it in Kool-Aid. 
John
John
Lone_Gunman
Member
I agree that I want an accurate gun too, but my point is that in a fight, I don't think it is going to matter much whether your gun shoots a 1" or a 2" group at 25 yds. There are much more important factors involved that slight differences in accuracy.
It sounds like you have a very accurate gun, but that does not mean all M&Ps are that accurate, and I suspect I could find a Glock that shoots just as well as any one particular M&P. I know I have shot Glocks that would shoot 1-2" groups at 25 yds, and some that would only do 3-4" groups. It is difficult if not impossible to draw conclusions about the accuracy of a particular model based on examination of one specimen.
"I am not sure I understand what top secret information you are giving away just by stating the name of the agency that allows that much shooting. Is it one we have heard of? Or something unknown to simple civilians?"
I'm not allowed. It is what it is. It is more and more prevalent, policy wise, at the federal level; and at the state and local levels, from what my peers there have indicated. Sorry. I can confirm, however, that it is an agency most everyone would recognize.
I'm not allowed. It is what it is. It is more and more prevalent, policy wise, at the federal level; and at the state and local levels, from what my peers there have indicated. Sorry. I can confirm, however, that it is an agency most everyone would recognize.
Lone_Gunman
Member
Not allowed to do what exactly? State the name of the agency you work for? Are you a covert operator?
"Not allowed to do what exactly?"
Not allowed to confirm who I work for online. Besides, really, it is not important. I shoot a given number of rounds, and have an understanding of the standard government contract for Glock, Sig, and HK, which somewhere along the lines I thought might have been of interest to folks. Take nothing more or less from it.
Not allowed to confirm who I work for online. Besides, really, it is not important. I shoot a given number of rounds, and have an understanding of the standard government contract for Glock, Sig, and HK, which somewhere along the lines I thought might have been of interest to folks. Take nothing more or less from it.
Lone_Gunman
Member
I would have to disagree that its not important. I think a fair number of people might suspect you don't have the credentials you claim. I think the problem is that no one has ever heard of a job where you would likely shoot as much as you claim. I guess its because its so secret.
Another interesting tidbit:
There are two government owned ISO 9000 rated (I believe that is what they are- could be mistaken) firearms laboratories, both who which further verify their results with a third independent ISO 9000 rated laboratory. One has declared several Glocks their favored pistols for general issue, the other several HK and several Sigs their favored pistoled for general issue. Which is why the majority of federal holsters are filled by those three.
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LG,
Then we will have to disagree, and I do not care what you think about my credentials or what you think I've claimed. My claim: I'm a federal LEO who shoots an amount most don't consider "a lot." Funny, many folks love to point out how LEOs don't shoot enough, despite shooting more than most gun owners if not enthusiasts, but when a LEO comes along who shoots more than many enthusiasts it is some kind of suspect event. Questions are raised, fair enough, but the response is not accepted so therefor it must not be true. After all, nobody tells you what you can say about yourself, right? Good for you. Someone tells me what I can say about myself. Again, it is what it is.
There are two government owned ISO 9000 rated (I believe that is what they are- could be mistaken) firearms laboratories, both who which further verify their results with a third independent ISO 9000 rated laboratory. One has declared several Glocks their favored pistols for general issue, the other several HK and several Sigs their favored pistoled for general issue. Which is why the majority of federal holsters are filled by those three.
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LG,
Then we will have to disagree, and I do not care what you think about my credentials or what you think I've claimed. My claim: I'm a federal LEO who shoots an amount most don't consider "a lot." Funny, many folks love to point out how LEOs don't shoot enough, despite shooting more than most gun owners if not enthusiasts, but when a LEO comes along who shoots more than many enthusiasts it is some kind of suspect event. Questions are raised, fair enough, but the response is not accepted so therefor it must not be true. After all, nobody tells you what you can say about yourself, right? Good for you. Someone tells me what I can say about myself. Again, it is what it is.
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Lone_Gunman
Member
No problem Erik, I guess my point is that no one takes you seriously.
Oh, and everybody at my office shoots through their primary pistols at least 1500 rounds a year, 400 of which are for purposes of qualification and the remainder in training, or they don't carry them. Their firearms instructor won't certify them otherwise; that would be me.
Most have secondary pistols, mostly j-frames, and average approximately 500 rounds through them; same rules as above. The guy with the semi-auto's round count is a bit higher, in that he opts to switch between in and his primary for general training; good for him.
And then there are the long guns...
They can ask for approximately 200 rounds of pistol ammunition per quarter for additional practice. Most opt for that option, practice, and it shows. They make it easy to be their firearms instructor.
I'll let them know some folks don't believe it; they won't care either.
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Hey! We shoot less than the state and local SWAT teams we integrate with on occasions. A lot less. And come to think of it, a few of our federal counterparts, too. Does that fit better with your idea of how much we should shoot?
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OH NO! No one takes me seriously! What ever will I do?
Most have secondary pistols, mostly j-frames, and average approximately 500 rounds through them; same rules as above. The guy with the semi-auto's round count is a bit higher, in that he opts to switch between in and his primary for general training; good for him.
And then there are the long guns...
They can ask for approximately 200 rounds of pistol ammunition per quarter for additional practice. Most opt for that option, practice, and it shows. They make it easy to be their firearms instructor.
I'll let them know some folks don't believe it; they won't care either.
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Hey! We shoot less than the state and local SWAT teams we integrate with on occasions. A lot less. And come to think of it, a few of our federal counterparts, too. Does that fit better with your idea of how much we should shoot?
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OH NO! No one takes me seriously! What ever will I do?
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Lone_Gunman
Member
Wont you get in trouble with your coworkers for posting this on the internet?
unless
I am wrong most allthe glocks tests of torture and burying are by private people not glocks.
I don't see sigs, hks. smith or other "proud" owners doing this to their guns. Not that they will not survive it but why hasn't someone come forward with their torture test on their hk's sigs, smiths etc. Prove it guys.....
Not sure these torture tests are closed only to glocks .
Course I will not bury my good guns to prove a point but some have and they have certainly proven some points of durability.
Doesn't make a glock any better gun than a sig, hk or any other gun if they are all taken care of but no doubt they are the gun that all are compared to and that to me is big kuddos to glocks...
I am wrong most allthe glocks tests of torture and burying are by private people not glocks.
I don't see sigs, hks. smith or other "proud" owners doing this to their guns. Not that they will not survive it but why hasn't someone come forward with their torture test on their hk's sigs, smiths etc. Prove it guys.....
Not sure these torture tests are closed only to glocks .
Course I will not bury my good guns to prove a point but some have and they have certainly proven some points of durability.
Doesn't make a glock any better gun than a sig, hk or any other gun if they are all taken care of but no doubt they are the gun that all are compared to and that to me is big kuddos to glocks...
It doesn't count if you have to replace parts. Any gun can sit in the ground for a few year, but you still are going to replace springs and stuff. I'm unimpressed to say the least ive seen many guns in worse shape become usable again after a good cleaning and springs replaced.
Ill gladly torture test my S&W if someone wants to fund it.
Ill gladly torture test my S&W if someone wants to fund it.
I have a M& P completly reworked by Dave bowie and it is dead nuts accurate. At first out of the box, it was the most horrible trigger system one could imagine. He made this gun dance for me.
Then I bought a G19, just because I like um. Sent it off to Accurate-Iron for a complete work over including dawson fiber optic adjustable sites . Never thinking this gun could compare to the M & P (which is basicaly a single action semi) but this G19 is just drop dead accurate as hell. I shoot it better than my M& P, and I am 65 and I never claim to be a good shooter but this G19 makes a liar out of me.
so my point is both are dead accurate but one for me is more accurate.
Then I bought a G19, just because I like um. Sent it off to Accurate-Iron for a complete work over including dawson fiber optic adjustable sites . Never thinking this gun could compare to the M & P (which is basicaly a single action semi) but this G19 is just drop dead accurate as hell. I shoot it better than my M& P, and I am 65 and I never claim to be a good shooter but this G19 makes a liar out of me.
so my point is both are dead accurate but one for me is more accurate.
lol. it is amusing you say "not that they will not survive" but then you imply they wont.. by challenging people to prove it. okay then
http://web.me.com/timetravelfoundat...1/6_The_beginning_of_the_end_for_a_P2000.html
http://web.me.com/timetravelfoundat.../17_Where_Have_All_the_Good_Writers_Gone.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpl0ZJkikNA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgjmtj9TgX8&feature=related
thats with, oh i dunno, 45 seconds worth of searching.
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damn I just love it when glocks owners knock sig, and vice versa or hk owner do the same thing. almost like "my dad can beat up ur dad" type stuff.
Just goes to show for me anyway that glock, sig, hk owners will defend their turf and for that kudos to all of you'se. I feel that way about certain brand myself.
I won't bury any gun to prove a point, all I want is dead bang reliability..
Just goes to show for me anyway that glock, sig, hk owners will defend their turf and for that kudos to all of you'se. I feel that way about certain brand myself.
I won't bury any gun to prove a point, all I want is dead bang reliability..
"Wont you get in trouble with your coworkers for posting this on the internet?"
No, because after all I have not and will not confirm mine and their employer.
Look, you don't buy my line of reasoning. Fine. You seem to reject it outright, as if I'm the only LEO on this forum and the net who posts vagueries about the details of their positions and employers. Fine. (There's a reason for that, but you reject it.) You've gone so far as to disparage me for whatever reason. Fine. I'll not thread drift further on the subject.
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As for why Glock one one ISO 9000 rated round of tests and Sig and HK tied to win the other, I cannot say, as those facts are closely guarded for whatever reason(s). I submit they should not be because of how many agencies and people rely on the conclusions of test criteria they know little if nothing about.
For example, if you insist on hammer fired pistols, fine, but explain why. Better yet, conduct comparisons against striker fired pistols regardless and put the information out there, having to justify the decision making process. And vise versa, etc, whatever the criteria and scenario might be.
No, because after all I have not and will not confirm mine and their employer.
Look, you don't buy my line of reasoning. Fine. You seem to reject it outright, as if I'm the only LEO on this forum and the net who posts vagueries about the details of their positions and employers. Fine. (There's a reason for that, but you reject it.) You've gone so far as to disparage me for whatever reason. Fine. I'll not thread drift further on the subject.
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As for why Glock one one ISO 9000 rated round of tests and Sig and HK tied to win the other, I cannot say, as those facts are closely guarded for whatever reason(s). I submit they should not be because of how many agencies and people rely on the conclusions of test criteria they know little if nothing about.
For example, if you insist on hammer fired pistols, fine, but explain why. Better yet, conduct comparisons against striker fired pistols regardless and put the information out there, having to justify the decision making process. And vise versa, etc, whatever the criteria and scenario might be.
listen guys as a government worker myself I understand completely why Erik doesn't want to identify who he works for. Its not about some childish secret squirrel nonsense its the simple fact that if you are posting on these boards using you credentials as a government employee to give yourself credibility than you are in fact acting as a spokesman for your company. Its like showing up in uniform for a campaign rally. It may not seem like a big deal to you guys but the Feds can and will discipline you for misuse of your position for things like that. Erik is just another member of the board and I think his opinion should be respected just like the opinion of anyone else. Its funny that usually the people screaming for others credentials likely don't have any of their own. SOOO why don't we just take each others opinions for what it is worth and show each other a little respect.
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