Introduction and Mosin M91 ?`s

[SovietPirate]

I would like to start off with a "hello" and by saying I`m not a stranger to Milsurps as I`ve been on another forum. Since the other forum has been having problems (and just plain rude *senior* members) I have decided to try it here since I`ve lurked several times

Anyways my question comes about a 1916 Tula M91. I know alot of M91`s went to Finland, alot were sent to the Balkans and others wound up where ever. But every one has some kind of identifying marks of where it`s been. This one has NO "c" for Serbia, NO "sa" (or other Finn marks like "d" or lined out back sights), and isn`t in the usual HORRID shape Balkan Mosins are found in.

The eagle is gone on the barrel (scrubbed), all #`s match (no Finn Line outs/renumber), BUT at one point it does look as if the bolt/floorplate was renumbered. I know the finn`s didnt bother with floorplates or buttplates 99% of the time. The bands and backsight are Izhevsk bow and arrow marked. Blue is a nice 95% with a few scratches. The bore is dark but strong with muzzle wear. The stock is light blondish and one piece, almost oil looking.

Is it possible Russia overhauled the M91`s with the M91/30`s? Also I have pictures but I`m forced to login with my cellphone as my computer went ka-put. I can send the pics to anyone through email or pic message if they wish. Just Pm me for pics.

And as always, what are M91`s going for these days?

 

[Cosmoline]

As far as I know, the Soviets did not rearsenal M91's as M91's. They did turn a lot of Dragoons into 91/30's of course.

The M91's ended up all over the planet, but there's usually some kind of identifying mark. Have you disassembled and checked all stamps? It could have been a captured piece that was simply never restamped. Pics would be good when you get a chance.

Price wise, there's quite a bit of variability. Some of the American made ones, if intact, can fetch surprising sums. But most of the Russian and Finn ones go for $150 to $200.

 

[SovietPirate]

No, there are no marks other than Russian and the old style under the barrel "cai st. alb. vt. M91Russia 7.62x54r" import mark and the serial # on left side of receiver. I have pics but I can`t upload. All I can do is send them from my phone to email or someone`s phone

It really is a great looking old girl. A friend of mine has had it since he ordered them back in early 90`s I believe (he owns a shop and does ALOT of Milsurp). I had to beat him out of it. For $202.65 out the door, I couldn`t be happier!

I appreciate a quick response too Cosmoline!

 

[caribou]

The Finns had "CivilGuard" rifles, often as unchanged as when they were captured, and the gov sold them to Finnish civilians in the 20's.
Finnland rehabbled Mosins starting in 1925, and when a Mosin went into Finnish rehab, it was stripped and the parts went into bins if they needed refurb or replacement. When they fixxed the rifles, they just put on what fit, no matter the serial# changed the sight graduations, ect, untill it could shoot 5cm groups at 100M or it went back.
If it were needing repair, it went into rehab, but if not, often the Imperial eagals were the only change made by grinding them off or peening them....some were left alone. If it worked, they didnt 'fix it'
Some were so bad off when captured or bought by Finnland that they rebuilt the entire rifle into a new one.
Also, Many 91's went to Finnland with the Russians in the Winter war and were lost to the Finns to be issued "As is" if they were up to snuff, and the Finn unit need rifles........, the rest were sent to the rear and evaluated by the arsenal..
"SA" and the "D" stamp were added after 1941, IF the rifle was taken into the Finn Army as orderd, but LOTS were kept by those who brought them to the front.. Some just stayed at the owners house all through the war and a great many were hidden at the wars conclusion so as to be there for the fight they were sure was comming again. Quite a few 91's were kept by the owners when Soviet peace terms dictated that the Civil Guard be disbanded at the conclusion of the winter war.

I have two 91's in original condition, one is perfect 'cept the eagals are gone, and the other all there but very well used. No SA or D stamps, but bought from Finnland by Centurey back in the 90's, like your friend.
I have almost 40 Mosins in various forms 1/2 were bought back the when 40$ each was Expensive......~~LOL!!~~

Ya never know........."But" you have a great rifle!

 

[SovietPirate]

Thank you. I love the fact that it doesn`t have ANY non russian marks other than the import mark. As for the great groups the Finn`s required, well I dunno bout that! LOL. This old girl definately has the worn muzzle from cleaning! It will take a bullet till about 3/4 of the way to the case or maybe a little more. But I have been getting 3-4inch at 100yrds which is fine for what I want. I love 91/30`s, and my 1930 Tula ex-dragoon is "my rifle" but the old M91 just has the old world feel to me.


I wish I could have been old enough during the days of the $40 M91`s!

 

[Cosmoline]

Check your stock for marks as well. I've seen Austrian captures with distinct marks on the stock.

 

[SovietPirate]

Zero stock marks either. I also looked for the Finn screw just forward of the bands. None. Still got the original sight blade, not the stepped Finn. All internal parts (trigger, spring, extractor) are marked with the hammer and the trigger, trigger spring, and extractor are "in the white." Butt plate # matches and is likely a re-match as the font differs (like floorplate) but is hammer marked. The bolt body and cocking piece arent arsenal marked but have been polished at some point (not by me or friend). Back sight slide is Izhevsk like the bands.

 

[caribou]

You most likely know by now, from other forums, that the "Hammer" is Tula's arsenal mark.

Not having Finn add-ons is acceptable, but its been refurbished/repaired at sometime in its life, most likely after the first world war, in the country that had it then, most likely Russia, if there are no Finn mods.

Good call, as to being still "Russian" though the Finns could have captured it in the Winter War, after Russian rehab, and issued it "As is".

The main reason I still suspect Finn ownership is that if it were imported in the early 90's, then it came from Finnland.
The Russians(Soviets) rehabbed all Mosins into 91/30's or M44 configuratons after WWII and did not import to this country untill 1998.

Finnland and other countrys DID Import many Mosins from the 50's to the 90's to this country and after, but most all were marked as to that country in some way, 'cept the Finns.
Any rifle imported after 1968 had the import stamps. The Finns sold a few here in the US in the mid 80's, mostly M-27, M-28 versions and ALOT of '91's in the early 90's , all with imports stamps by the front sight.
Your Cai stamp and the years you mention for its import kinda lean it tward that way.

I bet it was a personal Rifle a Finn owned after fighting in the Finn break off from Russian during the 1917-1921 civil wars, and was turned over to the army after the end of hostilitys with Russia in 1944. The guy who had it could have been too old to serve at the front, hence no mods, no stamps.......but served none the less.......

Never know, but COOL nonethe less

 

[SovietPirate]

I just wish it could speak! Unless you look at the date/muzzle you would think it was made last week at Tula!.

I appreciate the responses and friendly way my questions have been answered. On the forums I came from, this would get 1000 views and no replies simply cause I openly admitted in one post I "don`t really do Finns". Not saying they aren`t great but I prefer Russian...

I promise to attempt to get pics up!