Iraq war, Waco TX., anyone see a connection?

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I've read some really bizarre conspiracy theory and anti-government parallels, but linking Waco and Iraq in terms of how US Government authorities/forces operate(d) has got the be one of the most bizarre ones I have read.
 
Igor,
Your head is in the sand too … Nothing of what you said is on the mark.

Afghanistan was a haven for terrorists. NO MORE


What is THIS all about then?

1. Reducing the number of living breathing terrorist there by reducing the possibility of more attacks. If they’re dead they can’t plan anything else.

2. Elevating the cost of being a terrorist or supporting such to the point that NO government on earth will support such nor turn a blind eye.

3. Retribution so that others may fear our wrath when we are wronged. i.e. this is deterrence.

4. Minimizing the availability of Weapons of Mass Destruction that are available to would be terrorist.

5. US national sovereignty. It’s about a leader who with honor and integrity and courage is performing his sworn duty to protect our nation FIRST, above all else, against all enemies foreign or domestic.

The rest of you just benefit from it without cost.
 
Scott,

1. I'd think there is quite a significant number of alive and planning terrorists elsewhere than waiting to be decimated in Baghdad. Could you tell an Arab from a usual casual wanderer over your southern border? Not many needed.
2. This is a never-ending road as a principal. I'd say terrorist organizations have become independent enough from national governments and boundaries, much the same way as global businesses.
3. Having sensed the to us westerners crazy defiance inherent in these cultures, this could prove counterproductive.
4. Minimizing the availability of WMD in the world by leveling one rogue nation that could have some?
5. National sovereignty'r'us. But which nation's? Or which stakeholders' and where?

And, the rest of us benefit just what? :scrutiny:
 
Igor...

"But against whom? Wars are declared and waged between nations, with armies that can be fought. This War on Terrorism looks like the War on Drugs or... say... War on Surrealism. It's not a war, it should be something entirely different."

I disagree that wars are necessarily waged against nations, or are declared. The concept of war is so much more than just a struggle between nations, and that's the situation in which we're in.

Would you say that being under siege means only that your walled city is surrounded by Knights Templars?

The term War is used because it is an easy concept to understand for most people, as opposed to, say "A geopolitical, religiously based antagonism with moral, racial, and economic overtones."

I also disagree that "this is something else" completely.

While it doesn't "look" like a traditional war, it still has many of the same underpinnings and overtones.

Was World War II more a war because large armies were employed in the field?

Or was it less of a war because much more than just fighting your enemy in the field was considered, things such as political, economic, and social ramifications that were felt to be as important, if not more important in some cases, than actual combat operations?


"We can't get everyone to like us but we really should try to limit our international policies to what is best for America."

Uh... OK.

I suppose, then, that you think that America has actively and consciously pursued international policies that are seen to be in America's WORST interests?

Yow.

OK.

First off, I can't see how anyone could ever consider that removing Hussein/Iraq's ability to produce and distribute chemical, biological, or perhaps even nuclear weapons as anything OTHER than being in America's best interests.

Secondly, I would hope that no American leader has ever gotten up first thing in the morning and said "I think I'm going to float something today that I know to be absolutely counter to America's best interests. Who knows, maybe I can get lots of Americans killed just for my own amusement."

It's pure fantasy to believe that choosing the solutions that are most beneficial to America would generate anything other than animosity towards our nation.

For example...

It has long been seen to be in America's best interests to support the governments of Israel as well as those of numerous Arab nations.

An action in America's best interests, one that promotes parity, with just a little brinksmanship, as a means of promoting greater overall stability in the Middle East.

Stability in the Middle East is certainly a top notch candidate for something that is in America's best interests.

Yet, in the Arab world, we're hated for the support we give Israel.

In Israel, we're hated for the support we give to the Arabs.

Support no one? Just pull out? Now how is that in America's best interests? It will just engender MORE hatred, because we'll have "abandoned" our friends.

Diplomacy is nothing more than a series of Catch 22s that you balance as best you can.

But here's the ugly, ugly, truth.

It's not a question of IF there will ever be an NBC attack on American soil.

It's a question of when.

Definitive actions taken now to interdict rogue states that have the capability to supply these weapons and fund and recruit those who would use them, will go a long way toward reducing the probability of an attack in our life time, the severity of such and attack, and the cost in American lives.

Six months ago I was adamantly opposed to war in Iraq. You only need to go over to The Firing Line and search on some of my messages from the last half of last year to see where I stood on the issue.

I'm still conflicted about the necessity for war.

But I'm a LOT more comfortable with the concept now than I was 6 months ago.

The evidence exists, in my opinion, to support the forced disarmament of Iraq.

The potential consequences are simply too great to ignore.
 
Somebody made the analogy of Iraq as a guy with a gun pointed at our head. Let me take this further. Suppose there are three bad guys, one who has shot and irjured us (Al Quada), one with a cocked and loaded gun pointed right at our face (N. Korea) and one guy who doesn't have a gun yet but when he does get around to getting one, we are pretty sure he is going to use it on us (Iraq). Which one of these three guys should we go after? We are going after the guy that shot us so that is being taken care of, so who is next? Hmmm? I wonder. Lets go get the guy who is the smallest threat. That makes perfect sense to me. I am joking of course but I that is the logic we are useing.

On another point, lets face it, the War on Terrorism is a joke. Its like declaring a war on hate. At no point in time will we be able to say that we have won. We will never get them all. We will never be free of people that hate us and want to harm us via terrorist action. It is a war that we can never win and a war with no end.

I am not against the war on Iraq, I just think we have more pressing problems right now. I don't think it is the right time. If nothing else, we should at least try to get more countries behind us so we don't end up paying the entire bill. Bush is clearly not the diplomat that his father was. Still, I think we should not "misunderestimate" his people skills. :rolleyes:
 
Drjones, you forgot...

This is a transcript of an Iraqi defector that was also a captain at Salman Pak a secret terrorist training camp in Iraq.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/interviews/khodada.html

Perhaps hearing from one of the horses mouths will help.

"Somebody made the analogy of Iraq as a guy with a gun pointed at our head. Let me take this further. Suppose there are three bad guys, one who has shot and irjured us (Al Quada), one with a cocked and loaded gun pointed right at our face (N. Korea) and one guy who doesn't have a gun yet but when he does get around to getting one, we are pretty sure he is going to use it on us (Iraq). Which one of these three guys should we go after? We are going after the guy that shot us so that is being taken care of, so who is next? Hmmm? I wonder. Lets go get the guy who is the smallest threat. That makes perfect sense to me. I am joking of course but I that is the logic we are useing."

Your basing your arguement on an assumption with no fact attached. Most of the counterpoints on this thread have cited evidence after evidence and fact after fact. So to be fair let me ask some questions. If Iraq doesn't have a "gun" then why are they destroying them? If Iraq doesn't have chemical and biological components then why were they found? If Iraq has no intention of hurting the US then what is Salman Pak there for? If there is no link between Al Queda and Iraq then why did Usama say there was in the last video? Also why does Iraq train terrorists of all nationalities? If Iraq couldn't launch these weapons into the US then how did the fellas from 9/11 get here. No, they didn't have a rocket strapped to their backsides nor were they carrying a biological, chemical or nuclear payload but they certainly did a lot of damage, plus Saudi Arabia doesn't have the capabilities to launch missiles into the US but they sure did a good job with the hijackers. Saddam is better equipped than Saudi Arabia so just think of all the things he could do if given the chance besides training terrorists.

"On another point, lets face it, the War on Terrorism is a joke. Its like declaring a war on hate. At no point in time will we be able to say that we have won. We will never get them all. We will never be free of people that hate us and want to harm us via terrorist action. It is a war that we can never win and a war with no end."

First your implication is that by the War in Iraq we've given up on looking for Al Queda and Bin Ladin, but we haven't. We've capture at last count some 3,000 Al Queda and suspected Al Queda including a king pin all while this war planning has been going on. Can we do two things at once? Evidently we can and quite well I might add. Can we win the war on terroism? Yes. How long will it take? I don't know about you but I'll fight it for as long as I have to because I'm just that kind of guy :) A war with no end? Aren't they all?

"I am not against the war on Iraq, I just think we have more pressing problems right now. I don't think it is the right time. If nothing else, we should at least try to get more countries behind us so we don't end up paying the entire bill. Bush is clearly not the diplomat that his father was. Still, I think we should not "misunderestimate" his people skills."

GW is an intresting conundrum "because" of his father not "despite" his father. Basically Bush 41 was a softer spoken easier going person and thus was seen as being very diplomatic and good at putting others at ease where GW is seen as more brash, blunt and direct. The one thing taken out of the equation and so often over looked by people such as yourself is the times and circumstances that present themselves. During GW's fathers presidency we had not been attached on our own soil and liberating Kuwait was done for our allies. Today we face attacks on our own soil, attacks on our allies and the proliferation of weapons for indiscriminant purposes. All of this amid an air that has been poisoning this country for some time now called pasivity. Being passive is a weakness not a strength when using it to deal with people such as Saddam and his ilk.

For people such as Saddam if you want to sit for a hunger strike not only will he let you but he'll even take your food away so you can't change your mind in the future. Think of it this way, if I were Saddam and you decided to stand unarmed in front of my tank, I would run you over, but if you moved out of the way I would shoot you. Why? Because you came to fight a battle unarmed. So what you have are two people fighting for the same goal but fighting two completely different battles. Diplomacy with Saddam won't work. 12 years plus of diplomacy haven't worked with Saddam. Another problem that GW faces because Saddam expects us to be weak and expects the president to back down because that is what has happened for so many years. Now that we're not backing down it's a whole new ball game. No one except us knows what to do so, caos and confusion are what's guiding some of our allies presently. They talked tough but once it came down to it they weren't prepared for actually having to do anything and never expected to have to honestly.

Well, that's about all I can add for now but don't worry about not having the necessary information to make an educated assessment of the situation. Unless you spend as much time as some of us do looking at news and current events or perusing politics you might not ever be privy to this information.

Take care,

DRC.
 
Can we win the war on terroism? Yes. How long will it take? I don't know about you but I'll fight it for as long as I have to because I'm just that kind of guy A war with no end? Aren't they all?

When I wrote that we could never win the war on terrorism, I never thought ANYONE could possibly question that statment. Apparently you found a way.:rolleyes: I'm just curious, how exactly are we ever going to win the war on terrorism? When will there be no more terrorist to threaten us? Bush said it might take as much as 50 years to win it. I would be VERY surprised if sometime in the next 50 years we can say we have finally won.

Well thats the last of em. Got them all, everybody loves us now. No more terrorists. Yeeeehaaaw! :rolleyes: Come on! You can't seriously believe that crap.
 
igor, you said: “Could President Bush possibly be this a) stupid b) altruistic c) helpless?â€

Other than being insulting and condescending towards our President, you omitted the correct choice- d) right on target and backed by the best advisors and military in the world.

I didn’t care for your term “ragheads†either. Is that how people in Scandinavia refer to anyone without blonde hair and blue eyes? Sounds hauntingly familiar. Auslanders?

Ask the Afghanis how they feel about liberation from Taliban rule.

I was going to do an a, b, c, analogy regarding people from Scandinavia but I’ll refrain, High Road, don’tcha know…
 
firestar, you seem to disagree with quite a few of our current administration’s policies. Please render a few of your salient points in dealing with the evil that faces us if you were leading our country. How do YOU deal with people who are trying to kill you and your loved ones?
 
It's obvious, intune...he'd leave them alone so they wouldn't hurt him anymore....

It's not cowardice... :barf:

Seriously...it's starting now...the only thing firestar can possibly do is undermine support for those in harm's way.

Speaking as a guy who was in the sand last time, I'm absolutely sickened..and more than a little angry.

I'm guessing he's about twelve and just doesn't know any better.

Peter Arnett is saying he's hearing sirens and seeing anti aircraft fire.

God bless our pilots and navigators.
 
firestar....

"Well thats the last of em. Got them all, everybody loves us now. No more terrorists. Yeeeehaaaw! Come on! You can't seriously believe that crap."
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Well, no, that's YOUR 'crap'.

"Everybody loves us now"? What the heck does that have to do with winning the WoT?

If the enemy is dead and/or is too terrified to attack us, we've won:D
 
fallingblock,
So your solution is to kill everyone that disagrees with us? When we have either killed eveyone or scared them into hiding then we have won? Think about what you are saying! Come on man, thats just nuts! I bet you wish you were in charge right now. You could kill me because I have a different opinion than you do. :rolleyes: What a wonderful society you could make.

:uhoh:
 
"On another point, lets face it, the War on Terrorism is a joke. Its like declaring a war on hate. At no point in time will we be able to say that we have won. We will never get them all."

Incredible. You've missed the point of the entire War on Terrorism.

You're correct, we never will be able to root out every terrorist.

That's not feasible.

But that's also NOT the point of the War on Terrorism.

What is feasible, and what the point of the War on Terrorism is, though, is to break the organized groups that are able to plan, finance, coordinate, and carryout the kind of attacks that we saw on September 11 and the bombings of the embassies in Africa.

Those attacks required a high degree of planning, large sums of money, centralized control, and a well defined, quasi-military heirarchy in order to operate.

You kill that organization, you chase its operatives down, you cut off its funding, and you go a LONG way toward crushing its ability to strike out.

How can anyone not understand that concept?
 
firestar....

You are misquoting-again;)

"So your solution is to kill everyone that disagrees with us? When we have either killed eveyone or scared them into hiding then we have won? Think about what you are saying! Come on man, thats just nuts! I bet you wish you were in charge right now. You could kill me because I have a different opinion than you do. What a wonderful society you could make."
****************************************************
I wrote:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If the enemy is dead and/or is too terrified to attack us, we've won.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

See the difference?

No mention of any "wonderful society", that is an irrelevant term in this discussion.

Nothing about "scared them into hiding"...nope, I want them to realize that if they attack us, we'll get them...period! They can be out in the open, as long as they know to be terrified of the consequences of an attack on us.

You may say "that's just nuts", but it is the way of the world...check your history if you doubt it. Wanting it to be otherwise makes not a whit of difference.

Your opinion is yours, firestar...why would I want to harm you for it? Is it just possible that you frequently harbor such feelings for the opinion of others and choose to 'project' it this way?:scrutiny:
 
Firestar,

Opinions and actions are two different things. You have your opinions, as does everyone else here on this board... BUT no one on here is opinionated to the point that were busy hijacking planes, blowing up night clubs, and/or martyring ourselfs. Think about what YOUR saying, because drawing that inference is JUST NUTS.

Consider this a conditioning of the terrorist mind. If we can show them that every time they rear their ugly heads and take innocent lives, we will come back at them with a vengance with everything we've got, they might, just might think twice. If that prevents them from acting, great, if it doesn't at least well have our revenge. We are a freedom loving people, and Ill be damned if I'm gonna let some two-bit, cave-dwelling, bitter, jealous terrorist hold this nation in the grip of fear.

God bless this great country, and God damn those who would do us harm.
 
quote by firestar:
When I wrote that we could never win the war on terrorism, I never thought ANYONE could possibly question that statment.

let's see ...

5000 hate crazed, arrogant, well funded terrorist with little intervention from the US, who are well organized, well trained and in constant communication = much in the way of the damage they can do and this encourages others to join their numbers.

As oppose to …

3000 already dead, 2000 intimated, on the run, in deep hiding, actively pursued, little funded, unorganized, rarely able to risk communication, 24 hours a day in fear of their now miserable hate filled less and less significant lives = not much time or capability to actively engage in destructive efforts or in the recruitment or training of would be new members.

We can, and will, significantly reduce their impact to the point of near irrelevance.

Connect the dots … will-ya please!?
 
Hello Firestar.

"When I wrote that we could never win the war on terrorism, I never thought ANYONE could possibly question that statment. Apparently you found a way. I'm just curious, how exactly are we ever going to win the war on terrorism? When will there be no more terrorist to threaten us? Bush said it might take as much as 50 years to win it. I would be VERY surprised if sometime in the next 50 years we can say we have finally won."

Bush didn't commit to a set number of years. What he said was it could take years, 50 or even longer. I too would be surprised if we could say that as well, but then lets wait and see if there is a Democrat or a Republican in office first. If its a Republican they won't say it, but if it's a Democrat they would probably plaster it all over the place.

Yup I found a way to argue it. Just as many have said, an ongoing deterant will win the war on terrorism. I never said it would rid the world of terrorists. Think of it this way, why do terrorists not hijack planes in Isreal? Because Isreal does not negotiate with hijackers, they blow the plane up. The intresting thing is that the first and last time a hijacker took over a plane in Isreal they thought that isreal was bluffing when they said there would be no negotiations. The hijacker was given ample time to relenquish command of the plane and come out with his hands in the air to be arrested. He did not do as order and the plane was blown up with passengers aboard when the Isaid it would be. Now, did this rid the world of terrorists or hijackers? No, but guess what it did do? It eliminated the threat of it being done again because a wouldbe hijacker or terrorist knows they would die before accomplishing their goal. In otherwords there is a consequence to their action that they cannot get around. Isreal is still terrorised but when a bomb goes off and kills Isrealis the Isrealis kill some of theirs.

"Well thats the last of em. Got them all, everybody loves us now. No more terrorists. Yeeeehaaaw! Come on! You can't seriously believe that crap."

Why can't I? You believe yours. :)

To be fair lets take a hypothetical situation for a minute, if you walked up to a stranger and pulled a knife on them but didn't know how to use it as well as the stranger and the stranger managed to get the knife away from you and stabbed you with it, would you try it again if you lived? I would seriously doubt you would, plus you proabably wouldn't try it again on anyone because you would then understand that you don't know what the other party is capable of. Risks become too great at that point and yes, even terrorists sworn to allegence with promises of vestal virgins will still use judgement inorder to accomplish their goals.

If you, me and everyone else is always on the lookout for possible problems then it makes it harder for things like 9/11 to happen. It was easy for those on 9/11 because we were too compacent and weren't watching for these things because we never thought it could happen to us. Now we know it can and we will fight to the death to make sure it doesn't happen again. I'll keep my eyes and ears open, you do the same and we will win the war on terrorism. If they can't get it by you without you seeing it or saying and doing something about it they cannot succeed and lives are saved.

Keep up the good work even though you may not know you're doing any.

DRC
 
________________________________________
quote:
"The U.N. weapons inspectors have not found anything that violates the mandates. If there is some evidence that contradicts this, I would love to hear it."
________________________________________

I guess you loved the news about the Scud launch into Kuwait last night. Especially since Scuds are one of those "violates the mandates" weapons that Iraq is not allowed to have and that the inspectors somehow couldn't find.:rolleyes:
Of course, we are ignoring the other three launches, because they were the type of short range rockets that they "were destroying" last week or two. While they kept the assembly line running, making more.)
Nope, no evidence here, keep moving...
 
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