4 more years in Iraq

[RealGun]

We ... have established a democracy in Iraq. - Lone_Gunman

You are way ahead of the curve on that assertion. It hasn't happened and may never happen. I don't think helping them establish a theocracy, rights and high court decisions decided by clerics, is what we had in mind, certainly not something to die for. We definitely don't want to help to the extent we have and turn right around and put them on the list of countries that abuse human rights. As in Afghanistan, the role and rights of women is a central issue. Having that controlled by religious doctrine written by men just doesn't work.

Speaking of guns , it remains to be seen whether an Iraqi citizen can legally own a gun. Requiring a government license might sound like it's covered, but our founding fathers would never have bought into that notion.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

RealGun, the democracy may not last any longer than we are there, but the appropriate seeds have been planted, an election has been held, and a constitution is being written. That's close enough for me.

It is not our job, or our right, to ensure that democracy continues in Iraq.

 

[Didorian]

Before I start up again, I just want to reiterate something. STOP CALLING THIS A WAR! :banghead: The actual "War" was called to an end 3 years ago. Our men and women are over there dying in a peacekeeping role.
Now with that said:

YOu know.... I had given this issue plenty of thought before I left, while I was there, and since my return from Iraq. And no matter how many people tell me that we have things to gain from being in Iraq, I have yet to hear ANYONE TELL ME EXACTLY WHAT IT IS THAT WE HAVE TO GAIN FROM BEING IN IRAQ! We went, we ousted Suddam, we have given them the tools and the foundations to create a free and democratic society. We've done more for them than anyone else... in history.
But right now, Our soldiers are over there, trying to be nice to everyone, and it's leaving them open to attacks. Leaving many of them dead.
I do understand what we have to lose. We will lose face if we pull out...
But you know what? I knew that would happen if we went over there in the first place. I had thought that it was common sense.
Logically. We. Are. Loosing.
People here are worried about loosing face. But what about how stupid it must look to be leaving our people, and sending MORE of our people over there to die.
Yea, Yea, Yea.... You're thinking "Oh he's just another bleeding heart."
But here's the thing......
Tell me what it is that we have to gain. And then ask yourself if it's worth what we're losing. And I don't just mean in people. Folks here in the US are losing something just as important as pride. We're losing moral. Our military is hitting some of it's lowest numbers in decades. With no sign of recovering.
Saying to the american people that we are going to "stay the course", may sound strong to politicians..... But to the people out here in the real world, it sounds like our president, the man that put us in this mess (And no, I'm not saying that we shouldn't have gone to Iraq to do something, but Bush did it in a way that left us no exit without loosing face.) is saying that he's gonna just keep on sending our men and women over there to die because he refuses to pull out. This is a part of the world that has been at war since recorded history began..... And Bush is basically saying that until it is like America, Until their government is like ours, or close enough for his standards, then he's gonna keep on sending soldiers there...... And if that's the case, then you can forget about there EVER being an end to this "Operation Iraqi Freedom".


Now Please tell me, if I'm being too emotional to see the truth, then please show me what I'm missing.



Former soldier. Served 10 months in Iraq.

 

[Cosmoline]

Simple. The WMD issue was never anything more than a pretense to placate foggy bottom and the UN. The real reason we are there is to create an oil-rich democratic state with friendly ties to the US in a strategic position between Syria and Iran. It is hoped the Iraqi example will help spur democratic movements in Iran and break up the power of the fundamentalists across the region. With Afghanistan in the mix we own spaces on the board on both sides of Iran.

A lot of people really hate thinking about the world in these terms. But that's the way it has always been. We can either play the game or let our enemies take the board.

 

[Monkeyleg]

Cosmoline, you just nailed in a couple of sentences what I had tried to say in two long posts.

It may seem distasteful, but in the long term it's good "strategery." That assumes, of course, that the American public will allow our troops to remain as long as necessary. And that's looking less likely every day.

Didorian, you were over there, you were fighting. You have every right to say and feel what you please.

The cynical side of me says that, if it wasn't Iraq we invaded, we would have found a reason to invade another Middle Eastern country. It just so happened that Iraq fit the bill the best: violations of 17 UN sanctions, violations of the no-fly zone, (flawed) intelligence on WMD's, and systematic genocide.

 

[longhorngunman]

Cosmoline, you hit the nail on the head. To the individual like Didorian and others, the world is seen in emotion, and yes there are some very bad things that happen in Iraq and to our soldiers. But for those who must lead, just like it has always been done in the history of the world, individual emotions must be put aside for what is the best strategic action to take. So that the nation as a whole is safe and our interests are still viable. I'm sorry you feel the way you do, but I have family and friends who have served in Iraq and none of them feel the way you do. As for lowering morale, I think what the left is doing here in the states, trying to lower public support for the war is what could lower the morale of the forces as a whole(on a individual basis is a different story). Re-ups are incredibly high right now, which tells me a lot of soldiers obviously believe in what they are doing.

 

[Sleeping Dog]

create an oil-rich democratic state with friendly ties to the US

That's quite a goal.

There is no tradition of democracy in Iraq or in most of the area. If there's an election, the shiites win, the kurds and sunnis lose, Iraq becomes an islamic fundamental state, and only shiites can run in future elections, if they occur at all.

The newly-elected shiite fundamental govt will have friendly ties to Iran. Sunnis will rebel and get support from Syria and Saudi Arabia. Big civil war. Turkey will get nervous and seize the Kurdish area.

Sometimes I think the only way to stabilize the country is to find some leader that's ruthless and tough enough to keep every faction in line, and greedy enough to keep pumping oil into the world's supply. In other words, re-install Saddam as head of the country.

I'd bet the U.S. Army has that planned out, too, along with all the other alternate plans.



Regards.

 

[Malice]

In regards to those who think the absolutely unjust and ridiculous violations of the soverignty of foreign nations was just "the Cold War" and that its over now, I say this.

What the Cold War did was set the precedent that the US could intervene using sabotage, assassinations, regime change, or all-out war on any country whos policies and attitudes were deemed a threat to the US or its allies. Many of these actions were basicaly to undermine the spread of communism, but as many times as that was the truth, there were just as many times that was just a front.

Just because the Cold War, which was charactarized by being cold with the Soviet Union but hot with our client states, is over, does not mean this precedent suddenly dissapears.

The US will continue to carry out these actions against the innocent people of soverign states indefinatly. The Cold War being over has got nothing to do with it. The mindset the US has today began with the days of US Imperialism and was cemented by the Cold War. We now act like we have the right to carry out such actions, and to question it is unpatriotic, when it should be exactly the opposite.

The excuse "the Cold War is over," rings hollow.

 

[Monkeyleg]

"What the Cold War did was set the precedent that the US could intervene using sabotage, assassinations, regime change, or all-out war on any country whos policies and attitudes were deemed a threat to the US or its allies."

Joe, the guy down the block, tells me he's going to go after my wife, my father, and my mother, and kill them all.

He buys the house next door, and convinces the new neighbors that it would be in their best interests to kill my wife, father, and mother.

I'm not waiting long for an excuse to take Joe out, nor my new neighbors.

Sleeping Dog, the Sunnis went from abstaining from elections to saying they would abstain from the writing of a constitution to now wanting a role in the writing of that constitution.

It's only been a few short months, yet we want to click the remote and get instant good news.

Imagine if CNN had 24/7 coverage of our Declaration of Independence, and the war that followed. My guess is that the US would still be a Royal Colony today.

 

[Harve Curry]

Here's some insight from 72 years ago:

Smedley Butler on Interventionism
-- Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933, by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC.

War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.

I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

 

[Waitone]

Great quote! Sources please.

 

[Harve Curry]

Waitone,
I had read of Butler before. Just typed in Marine Corp (Google search), then "searched within results" for Smedley Butler. Twice he recieved the Medal of Honor.
Here's some links:
http://www.medalofhonor.com/SmedleyButler.htm

http://www.anti-sheep.com/articles/smedley_butler.php , has more of Butler's text, he had alot to say.

Gen. Butler said there are ony two things we should fight for, invasion of our shores and the Bill of Rights.
I wonder if he would think we are doing enough to protect the Bill of Rights.

 

[DRZinn]

So he was brave. That doesn't mean he was right.

 

[Derby FALs]

Flying into their soverign airspace? Uh, a ceasefire was declared and Saddam agreed to our conditions, which included the no fly zones among many others. Well Saddam broke this among 17, not two or three but SEVENTEEN U.N. resolutions.

The No-Fly Zones were imposed by the US, not the UN. There is still a question to the legality of them.