Is 458 Win Mag Versus 458 Lott "Hype"?

[PolymathPioneer]

Ok; this is meant to stimulate discussion and I am not going to say anything to begin with to provide arguments either way so there is no bias to start the thread. I have DGRs chambered in both cartridges and am in the process of having a model 70 in 458 win mag re-chambered to 458 lott for my wife (see different THR thread regarding technical issues of conversion but this post is not about that). I like both chamberings and know PHs who do too. I saw the subject of the post briefly raised and debated on at least one other forum but would like THR to weigh in, so the question simply is:

Is today's 458 win mag conversion to 458 Lott (or just the 458 Lott versus the 458 win mag) motivated by gun magazine hype given the advancements in powder and bullet design that effectively remove historical 458 win mag issues (such as powder caking issues for example, perhaps velocity, etc.) specifically associated with dangerous game rifles? This question is specific to the 458 win mag versus 458 Lott rather than bringing in the diversity of other DGR chamberings.

 

[303tom]

Both built off the .375 H&H , the Lot is longer thus more power , that is like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Mike1234567]

Seems more like comparing apples to slightly larger apples to me.

 

[PolymathPioneer]

Both built off the .375 H&H , the Lot is longer thus more power , that is like comparing apples to oranges.

I understand where you are coming from however the recoil is also much greater and in a short barreled rifle the blast is too (blast can reduce hearing, which may make you susceptible to not detecting an attack by another animal for example). A dangerous game rifle must function to optimize all parameters, recoil, possible follow-up shots and several other parameters. The question is not just a linear comparison of velocity and energy, it is a DGR system comparison.

 

[Grumulkin]

1. I haven't seen that much 458 Lott gun magazine hype.

2. Considering the availability of the 458 Lott which is superior power wise to the 458 Winchester, I wouldn't even consider a 458 Win. Mag. It's plain and simple it's a better cartridge.

3. Everyone should be wearing hearing protection even when hunting. You aren't going to save your hearing by just using a 458 Win. Mag.

4. 458 Lott recoil ain't that bad if the gun is well designed. Felt recoil in my 458 Lott shooting 500 gr. bullets is less than in my 378 Weatherby shooting 270 gr. bullets.

 

[Art Eatman]

I've read a few comments from folks who've hunted the big African game. There have been some statements about inadequate penetration from the .458 Win. Whether this has more to do with the bullet design than the velocity, I don't know.

This is in no way an "everybody hates it" deal. And, as always, circumstances for the shot and shot placement make a difference.

 

[PolymathPioneer]

... It's plain and simple it's a better cartridge ...

Playing devils advocate: When presented with an opinion the great Finn Aagaard would succinctly and politely ask “How is it you know that to be true?" My question is in the context of close up dangerous game hunting. Finn used a 375 H&H and 458 win mag to take the big 5 and he certainly had access to the 458 lott even though it was a wildcat cartridge until 2002. (When Finn died in 2000 after a long battle with cancer, he passed on to his son Harald his .375 H&H and to his other son Erik, his .458 win mag. He left these two rifles as a legacy to pass on to the children and grandchildren.) While other gun writers were condemning one cartridge or another as totally useless Finn would objectively test them against measurable means. So why didn't Finn switch to the lott from the win mag if the lott is a better cartridge? Due to the lott not being a commercially available cartridge at the time? I wouldn't think that would be the sole criteria.

 

[H&Hhunter]

It's kind of like a .44 Spcl VS a .44 Mag you can fire .458 WM through a .458 Lott so why not get the Lott.

Here is my take on the Lott. To me the Lott is not about launching a 500 gr bullet @ 2300 FPS vs a .458 WM doing it at 2150. To me the signifigance of the Lott is the ability to launch a 500 gr pill @ 2150 without having to cram every last ounce of powder in the case. The Win Mag is MAXED OUT to get the magical 2150 out of it with a 500 gr pill the Lott does it without any issues at all, no compressed loads no thought of caked powder, no worries about heat, which makes it a more reliable and better cartridge IMO.

There never was any reason to build the .458 WM on a 2.5" case it should have been a 2.85" case all along and if it had it would have never suffered from it's early maladies. The only reason it was built on the 2.5" case is that length case was a fad in the day with the advent of the .338 the .264 and the .300 WM. It was the WSM of it's time and because of it suffers a severe lack of case capacity.

 

[Kachok]

I am no safari hunting expert, but I do know a thing or two about ballistics and I know for a fact that mass/SD/ bullet construction have much more to do with penatration then a hundred extra fps impact speed ever will. To make a blanket statement that the Lott is better is kinna narrow. Besides if it was all about the extra impact speed why are we not comparing the 458 Lott to the 460 Wby Mag? Last I checked the big Wby would smoke the Lott by about 300fps with a 500gr bullet!! That is over 10,000 J (7,500 ft/lbs) of energy, and if I was 7 foot tall with an iron shoulder I would own one in a heartbeat.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I am no safari hunting expert, but I do know a thing or two about ballistics and I know for a fact that mass/SD/ bullet construction have much more to do with penatration then a hundred extra fps impact speed ever will. To make a blanket statement that the Lott is better is kinna narrow.

The Lott is a better round. Not because of it's capability to launch a bullet faster.

 

[Mike1234567]

^^^ Please explain how the Lott is better. I know it has a slightly longer cartridge and, subsequently, will hold more charge but it doesn't look, to this noob anyway, all that significant.

 

[Art Eatman]

Don't quote me, but I vaguely recall some negative comments about chamber pressures in the .458 Win, needed in order to get the velocity. Maybe H&H recalls?

 

[PolymathPioneer]

The 458 win mag powder caking, bullet problems and shell extraction issues at high temperature (Africa 120 degrees etc) are no longer issues since circa 2006 with new primer, powder and bullet components. In my experience the Lott offers reloading flexibility, a little more velocity, higher recoil and the most important factor is my wife likes it as her DGR. At 50 yards there is no difference in Africa, at 150 yards the Lott wins (and as far as my wife is concerned and she likes her CZ 458 lott, further away is better when discussing what's for dinner with cape buffalo or other dangerous game). Note: At 150 yards a cape buffalo and a ground squirrel offer equal danger. That being said let the debate go on!

 

[303tom]

I am going to play the devils advocate also , why not just use the .375 H&H ?

 

[PolymathPioneer]

I am going to play the devils advocate also , why not just use the .375 H&H ?

Good point! 375 h&h can take anything on the planet IMO. My Winchester 375 h&h has a 24 inch barrel and a magnum action of course (like my wife's current CZ 458 lott). My Winchester 458 win mag has a medium action (shorter throw), has an 18" barrel and weighs 8 pounds. My 458 handles faster at close range (30-50 yards) and is better for suprises.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Please explain how the Lott is better.

Mike1234567,

Mike I did explain it in my first post. And for the reasons I explained there are very few experienced PH's who still use a .458 Wm most all have converted to the Lott or gone on to something else for those exact reasons. For those of you who missed my first post I'll paste it here in quotation boxes for clarification sake.

the Lott is not about launching a 500 gr bullet @ 2300 FPS vs a .458 WM doing it at 2150. To me the significance of the Lott is the ability to launch a 500 gr pill @ 2150 without having to cram every last ounce of powder in the case. The Win Mag is MAXED OUT to get the magical 2150 out of it with a 500 gr pill the Lott does it without any issues at all,

 

[H&Hhunter]

I've killed DG with a .458 Lott, a .375H&H, and a .470 NE. The .375H&H is a minimal round on elephant no two ways about it. The .375 and the .458 are different classes of rifles.

If a guy wants to shoot a .458 WM he's perfectly safe to do so with modern powders. All of the factory built .458's that I know of are built on magnum length actions. The Lott does everything the .458 WM does at lower pressure to me it just makes sense to use that extra action length. In any case with a Lott chamber you can load your WM bullets out quite a bit relaxing your case capacity issues somewhat.

There simply is no getting over the fact that the WM is hard pressed to get 2150 out of a 500 GR pill and the Lott isn't. Thus my choice is the Lott.

 

[PolymathPioneer]

I've killed DG with a .458 Lott, a .375H&H, and a .470 NE. The .375H&H is a minimal round on elephant no two ways about it. The .375 and the .458 are different classes of rifles.

If a guy wants to shoot a .458 WM he's perfectly safe to do so with modern powders. All of the factory built .458's that I know of are built on magnum length actions. The Lott does everything the .458 WM does at lower pressure to me it just makes sense to use that extra action length. In any case with a Lott chamber you can load your WM bullets out quite a bit relaxing your case capacity issues somewhat.

There simply is no getting over the fact that the WM is hard pressed to get 2150 out of a 500 GR pill and the Lott isn't. Thus my choice is the Lott.

Mileage may vary. My Winchester 458 win mag is a custom rifle that I had built to be a small, close quarters, fast handling bush rifle and I like it very much. I also like my custom 375 h&h model 70 (if I could only have one rifle that would be it). I am having a 458 win mag Winchester classic (minty and picked up for 550 dollars) re-chambered to 458 lott for my wife and primarily my daughter to use on her first hunt for buff in Africa next year. Re-chambering the rifle requires replacement of the magazine block, re-bedding, replacement of the rear flip-up sight, and some other work so the rifle converts to 458 lott well, i.e. its not just reaming a barrel. My wife has a CZ 458 lott with European stock (I don't like it, she does).

 

[PolymathPioneer]

Mike1234567,

... there are very few experienced PH's who still use a .458 Wm most all have converted to the Lott or gone on to something else for those exact reasons ...

Interesting, that is a very broad statement, can you provide some independent reference on that, i.e. a magazine article etc? Also as you know PHs have different requirements than their clients. PHs may need a rifle for the client to borrow (if something happens to the client rifle) and a PH needs a close range stopping rifle. Two rifles a PH might have is the great 375 h&h and something with a caliber with a 4 or a 5 for close up work (i.e. if the elephants butt doesn't drop).

 

[H&Hhunter]

Interesting, that is a very broad statement, can you provide some independent reference on that, i.e. a magazine article etc? Also as you know PHs have different requirements than their clients. PHs may need a rifle for the client to borrow (if something happens to the client rifle) and a PH needs a close range stopping rifle.

I am of course not speaking of a clients rifle or a rifle for a client to use. That is why I specifically said PH's. In all of my African hunts and of all the PH's I know only one was using a .458 WM and he was an apprentice who had bought the only heavy rifle he could afford and was waiting to have to reamed out to a Lott.

The .458's of any kind are stopping rifles I am not getting your drift towards a PH would have a Lott to loan to a client.

I've converted 4 rifles to .458 lott over the years. I've found it easier to simply re barrel a .375H&H to .458 Lott and I like the stainless action in .375's as platform to do so. I put a 22" or a 21" barrel on them and since Winchester uses a magnum length action on all of it's production .458 WM's your Lott's will be just as short and handy as your .458 WM's.

Craig Boddington did a survey of PH's and what rifle they carried but I can't find it and can not say for sure that it's results would back up my observations. I've hunted Tanzania, Zimbabwe, South Africa and know a bunch of PH's from the said countries as well as Zambia, Botswana and Mozambique. I've found that most all PH's have drifted away from the .458 WM but the ones who still use it, defend it vociferously.

Here is a guy who has the same take on the Wm vs Lott as I do you'll find quite a bit of this if you look into it.

http://www.africanhuntermag.com/458.html

Another GREAT article on the .458 WM

http://www.shakariconnection.com/458-caliber-rifle.html

 

[PolymathPioneer]

I am of course not speaking of a clients rifle or a rifle for a client to use. That is why I specifically said PH's. In all of my African hunts and of all the PH's I know only one was using a .458 WM and he was an apprentice who had bought the only heavy rifle he could afford and was waiting to have to reamed out to a Lott.

The .458's of any kind are stopping rifles I am not getting your drift towards a PH would have a Lott to loan to a client.

I've converted 4 rifles to .458 lott over the years. I've found it easier to simply re barrel a .375H&H to .458 Lott and I like the stainless action in .375's as platform to do so. I put a 22" or a 21" barrel on them and since Winchester uses a magnum length action on all of it's production .458 WM's your Lott's will be just as short and handy as your .458 WM's.

Craig Boddington did a survey of PH's and what rifle they carried but I can't find it and can not say for sure that it's results would back up my observations. I've hunted Tanzania, Zimbabwe, South Africa and know a bunch of PH's from the said countries as well as Zambia, Botswana and Mozambique. I've found that most all PH's have drifted away from the .458 WM but the ones who still use it, defend it vociferously.

Here is a guy who has the same take on the Wm vs Lott as I do you'll find quite a bit of this if you look into it.

http://www.africanhuntermag.com/458.html

Another GREAT article on the .458 WM

http://www.shakariconnection.com/458-caliber-rifle.html

Thanks for the references I will read them this evening. Regarding a PH client loaner I should have been more clear, I was only speaking of the 375 h&h that a PH might provide his client as a loaner and of course they check you out shooting it beforehand (notwithstanding, including with the rifle the client brought for the hunt) to see if there might be handling problems. As you know the PH is ready with his stopping rifle to shutdown mistakes made by the client.

 

[H&Hhunter]

As you know the PH is ready with his stopping rifle to shutdown mistakes made by the client.

In theory anyway..

I've experienced several situations where you'd better be able to handle your own business.

 

[PolymathPioneer]

In theory anyway..

I've experienced several situations where you'd better be able to handle your own business.

Touché my friend, well done! It is always best to be prepared. If you are ever in Montana, PM me before hand.

Cheers!

 

[H&Hhunter]

PP,

Thanks for the invite I'll do it next time I'm headed to Montana.

I am not trying to be a jerk here and quite coincidentally last night I happened upon the latest Rifle magazine at the grocery store.

Take a look at the Sept 2011 issue of Rifle magazine. Page 26, 5th paragraph. In an article entitled ".458 Winchester Magnum" part of the article interviews Don Heath. Don is the chief examiner for the Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association.

In which Don states;

"More recently the popularity of the .458 has declined quite a bit among African Professional Hunters. Most PHs have long ago reamed their .458s out to the slightly longer .458 Lott."


Don previous to that states that he's more tolerant of the round than in the past but warns to use only fresh ammo.

As I stated previously you'll almost never see a PH using a .458 WM in modern Africa and there are very few clients who use them either. The rifle has a deservedly bad reputation and has some serious design flaws that the Lott provides a very simple fix for.

 

[PolymathPioneer]

PP,

Thanks for the invite I'll do it next time I'm headed to Montana.

I am not trying to be a jerk here and quite coincidentally last night I happened upon the latest Rifle magazine at the grocery store.

Take a look at the Sept 2011 issue of Rifle magazine. Page 26, 5th paragraph. In an article entitled ".458 Winchester Magnum" part of the article interviews Don Heath. Don is the chief examiner for the Zimbabwe Professional Hunters and Guides Association.

In which Don states;

"More recently the popularity of the .458 has declined quite a bit among African Professional Hunters. Most PHs have long ago reamed their .458s out to the slightly longer .458 Lott."


Don previous to that states that he's more tolerant of the round than in the past but warns to use only fresh ammo.

As I stated previously you'll almost never see a PH using a .458 WM in modern Africa and there are very few clients who use them either. The rifle has a deservedly bad reputation and has some serious design flaws that the Lott provides a very simple fix for.

H&H, Thats very interesting thanks for the reference and I am glad you found that information, which I will track down to read. Once I followed up on the earlier links you provided I realized I had read the articles before but I am glad it is part of this thread now. My wife uses the lott and I mentioned we are spending about $550 (by the time it is done) to have Dennis Olsen in Plains MT convert a model 70 458 classic to the lott for my daughter's next years buff hunt. Col. Art Alphin will be visiting Montana before the end of the year and will be staying at our house as my guest when he visits here. I will be sure to discuss this with him when he arrives. Notwithstanding, I like my custom 458 bush rifle very much and I am sure I won't be changing it to lott. Its fast, light and very accurate for the caliber. Yet for all else I use one of my 375 h&h model 70s.

As I had in my THR signature for a while, if the 458 was good enough for Finn Aagaard, it is good enough for me.