Is 458 Win Mag Versus 458 Lott "Hype"?

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Finn was a advocate of the .458 and I don't disagree with anything he said. Just keep that ammo fresh and you'll be fine.

Here are some buff pictures from the years.

I took this one with a .375H&H in the Zambezi valley. 300 gr Barnes TSX one shot kill through the top of the heart the buff went less than 30 yards and dropped stone cold dead. I have started shooting buff higher in the shoulder and hitting the top of the heart or the "spaghetti junction" above the heart. It really kills them fast. Faster than a lung shot or a heart muscle shot.
Buff20083.jpg

I took this one several years before with a .470 double rifle using .500 gr Barnes X and Barnes solids. This ended in a full blown close range charge. The bull took two shots through the lungs initially from my .470 then took four more before he stopped. The story was written up in African Hunter Magazine in the 2008 SCI show edition January 2008

Dagaboys2.jpg

I killed this one in the Kilombero of Tanzania in 2002 he took one frontal shot to the heart with from my .458 Lott with a 500 gr WLSP then I swatted him three more time as ran away. 10 minutes latter we found him lying in the long grass and he was able to get up on wobbly legs and act like he was going to charge but put a 500 gr solid through his neck which ceased all hostilities. When we opened him up he had a golf ball sized hole right through the bottom of his heart from the first shot. Apparently he hadn't read the manual where it says heart shots are fatal!@

Kilomberoday1buff2.jpg

Another bull that I killed in the Kilombero. This picture shows my first attempt at a Lott conversion. The rifle was a stainless M-70 that I re-barreled. The reason it's wearing that stock is that it shot itself out of two others right before the hunt. I put that el cheapo Houge on it and it held. It now wears a very well done Mc Millian and prototype set of protected ear sights My buddy Ashley Emerson has got it at the moment but I'll get some pictures of it up ASAP.

africa21.jpg
 
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H&Hhunter said:
Here are some buff pictures from the years.
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H&H, great information and pictures! Thanks for including them in the thread. I will get a copy of the 2008 African Hunter Magazine with your article to read. Was the model 70 you re-barrelled a former 375 h&h action? As I mentioned we are having the model 70 458 classic my wife picked up converted to 458 lott, primarily because she wants a smaller rifle than the CZ she has now. At first I was not convinced this was feasible however MT gunsmith Dennis Olsen has convinced us (he has done the conversion many times). There are several issues, non the lease of which is the floor plate, which I am convinced may drop on the first shot of a full charge lott round. A mercury recoil reducer is also needed, perhaps two. Alternatives I discussed with Arthur was one of his rifles (450-500 etc), but this would cut into the trip budget. Any thoughts on making a small sized 458 lott with a model 70 medium action would be appreciated. We plan to use A-Square manufactured ammo on this trip, have you any experience with A-Square ammo in the field?

Cheers!

Additional Note

Interesting, it appears as the OP I have meandered to hijack my own thread, (I hate thread hijacking)! Apologies to all.
 
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PP,

That gun was built off a stainless .375 H&H M-70 I've done three M-70's from a stainless .375's and one off a Montana action. I only have one left as people keep offering me more than I can stand for these things when they are done.

Back when you could buy a new M-70 .375H&H stainless gun for like $750.00 it was a no brainier conversion. Now that those have dried up it no longer economically feasible to do.

As far as A2 ammo. Art builds some very good ammo, however for the price he is no better than Barnes and defiantly not better than North Fork stuff. Once you get to that level of performance in a bullet the different brands are purely semantics as they all work great. A2 is a bit stoned on his prices.
 
H&Hhunter said:
PP,

That gun was built off a stainless .375 H&H M-70 I've done three M-70's from a stainless .375's and one off a Montana action. I only have one left as people keep offering me more than I can stand for these things when they are done.

Back when you could buy a new M-70 .375H&H stainless gun for like $750.00 it was a no brainier conversion. Now that those have dried up it no longer economically feasible to do.

As far as A2 ammo. Art builds some very good ammo, however for the price he is no better than Barnes and defiantly not better than North Fork stuff. Once you get to that level of performance in a bullet the different brands are purely semantics as they all work great. A2 is a bit stoned on his prices.
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H&H; have you tried the Hornady "super hi performance" DG ammo? I have but I don't have a chronograph to test their claims other than the recoil doesn't increase.
 
H&H; have you tried the Hornady "super hi performance" DG ammo? I have but I don't have a chronograph to test their claims other than the recoil doesn't increase.
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No I haven't I am strictly a roll your own kind of guy for DG stuff. I have used their Superformance in a .308 load and was very happy with it. I have heard very good reports about the Hornandy DG ammo from other hunters however.
 
Gus from time to time I run across GREAT deals on .375's. ... .470NEs, not so much!:)

A .375H&H is a very doable rifle for most folks and you'll find plenty of use for it right here in good old CO. There is nothing that I won't hunt with a .375H&H.
 
H&H what rifles do you recomend in 375 H&H? A good friend of mine is has family in Alaska and we are trying to put a hunt together. I thought about a 338 win, but it seems the 375 caliber has an even stronger reputation for large dangerous game and at least on peper the recoil is not really any more. Also have you tried the 375 Ruger? What are your thoughts on the newfangled 375? New and improved, just another fad, or outright blasphemy? I handload so availability of factory fodder would not be an issue for me.
 
Possible Issues with 458 win mag to Lott Conversion Using Medium Action Rifle

First off if the conversion is on a magnum large action rifle as with 375 h&h it is a straightforward conversion. That being said read the section entitled "Special Problems", on pages 56 through 58 of the great book by Art Alphin titled "Any Shot You Want" before you perform the conversion. This section has information on what is necessary to perform the conversion safely. Second, doing the conversion on a medium action rifle is not as clear as I once believed. Whereas with the large action rifle the "system" is already setup for the lott, i.e. feed ramp, magazine box, stock etc. In the medium action rifle it generally is not and there are several modifications required by a competent gunsmith to prevent a possible disaster. I chose the word disaster, considering the consequences of a possible total rifle system failure when converting for example a 458 win mag rifle implemented using a medium action (i.e. not a large action) to 458 lott. I am sure it can be done, (because people have done it), however if the rifle is regularly shot and the conversion was not done to optimize the medium action rifle as a system to deal with the 458 lott, the rifle may fail in the worse way. (This is particularly important to me since a Win M-70 458 I am having converted to 458 lott was built on a medium action.)
 
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Kachok said:
H&H what rifles do you recomend in 375 H&H? A good friend of mine is has family in Alaska and we are trying to put a hunt together. I thought about a 338 win, but it seems the 375 caliber has an even stronger reputation for large dangerous game and at least on peper the recoil is not really any more. Also have you tried the 375 Ruger? What are your thoughts on the newfangled 375? New and improved, just another fad, or outright blasphemy? I handload so availability of factory fodder would not be an issue for me.
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Kachok; my wife just purchased a new Winchester model 70 375 h&h, it is very reasonably priced and very nice. It has the new MOA trigger, which is set at 3 to 3.5 pounds, (what I like in a DGR), i.e. very light triggers are a no go in DGRs. I only use Winchester big bore DGRs and have several (including wife's new 375 h&h rifle with MOA trigger). Although the new Winchester MOA trigger adjustment limits would not work well for some hunting applications in a DGR its great.
 
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Yeah the Winchester has my eye, I like the CZ too (Brno 602). The CZ holds 5 rounds instead of the 3 that Ruger and Winchester hold. Best deal I have found on the Winchester and CZ are about a grand, the Ruger can be had in the high $800s. Any imput on the 375 Ruger? Will it last? Is it as good as advertised?(A beltless, standard length, 375 H&H with an extra 100 fps) I omited the Remington and Wby from the list bacase if I wanted 375 UM or 378 Wby mag recoil I would just get a .416.
 
Can't believe I've missed all the fun on this one!

First and foremost: great buff, H&H!

Now, as some of you know, I own a .458 Lott. There are lots of reasons I thought and think that's the way to go. For instance:

  • Depending on where you're hunting, a shorter (22-in) barrel makes a lot of sense to get through thickets or high grass. If you do that to a .458 Win Mag, have you just lowered the muzzle velocity "too much"?
  • A lot of folks (including me and apparently H&H) love the Barnes TSX bullet. Its (only!) weak point is that without the density of lead, you need a longer bullet to make weight. In a Lott case, who cares? But in a Win Mag case...hey, I ws going to put powder in there...:uhoh: So, you may have to sacrifice velocity for your favorite bullet, or vice versa.
  • Handloading. I hate to say it, but some factory loads are now surpassing what I can do as a handloader. I got some Federal Lott loaded with 500 TSXs and chrono'd them...and they made my handloads catch the next bus outta town (except for practice, which can be done with cheaper, shorter solids). Of course, YMMV. If that's the case with Lott, it's got to be even worse with Win Mag.
That last point speaks to the fact that current factory loads of .458 Win Mag (Federal, Norma...I haven't tested Hornady in .458 Win Mag yet) are achieving the 2050-2100 ballistics without the powder turning into compressed toothpaste.

So, you have a controlled-feed (pre-'64 extractor) Model 70 in .458 Win Mag? Probably walnut stock, which are usually good but some will split or crack (and will be weakened by placing a recoil reducer) even with the crossbolts, so figure on full glass-bedding at least and maybe eventually replacing the entire stock. If the bolt handle hits your hand in recoil, it can be straightened; if the magazine floorplate opens under recoil, might need another one of those...

Bottom line: might take a fair amount of smithing to make this rifle really work with .458 of any kind. Not sure you get a lot of "bang for the buck" by making the switch to .458 Lott, unless all that other stuff is taken care of already!
 
This may be a stupid question but... can a Browning X-Bolt Medallion .375 H&H Mag be converted to .458 Lott? If so, any idea regarding cost?
 
^^New barrel, probably changing of the stock inletting at the barrel. Not sure of the cost, but not too bad. But then, again, you'll have to perhaps deal with all the adjustments that would be needed for jumping up to .458 recoil, like stock crossbolts.

I'm a big fan of .375. I am told that it is the most popular client rifle in Africa for dangerous game, while .458 Lott is the most popular PH rifle for the same.

.375 H&H is a really rangy beast. It's only failing is it's not a real "stopper" of dangerous game bigger than lion. Still, in the right rifle (maybe an Ed Brown custom) it is a true 300 yard caliber, in a way that no .458 will ever be.

Add: A Browning X-bolt is a push-feed, which I think is fine for plains game. I would not use one for dangerous game.
 
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Thanks, LH. I asked because I already have the Browning I mentioned and, yes, I know it'll kill anything in the CONUS. But, for SD against a charging 400 pound feral hog or large brown bear, I want the quickest kill imaginable especially if my shot placement isn't perfect.
 
Have any of you experienced hunters ever seen/used the newer .416 Ruger? It looks interesting, and can be had in a rifle that isn't too expensive. With a good lower powered fixed scope it might work well for African buffalo?
 
Does anybody have any input on the 375 H&H vs 375 Ruger?
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The .375 Ruger is a great round IF you don't already have a .375H&H it's worth a look. It slightly outperforms the H&h but not enough to amount to any significant difference on game or range.

The problem is with Ruger rifles. They are seriously hit or miss. I love the platform and the styling but the QC on Ruger rifles SUCKS. If i ever had another one I'd be sure and work it over good and hard before dearning of hunting Dg with it.

it is a true 300 yard caliber
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With 270 gr bullets it's every bit the long range a caliber a .338 WM is. My longest range elk kill to date is with a .375H&H at 443 yards. The H&H will push a 270 gr bullet @ 2800 fps. A .338 does about the same with a 250 gr. They are just SOOO versatile.
 
Have any of you experienced hunters ever seen/used the newer .416 Ruger? It looks interesting, and can be had in a rifle that isn't too expensive. With a good lower powered fixed scope it might work well for African buffalo?
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As fine a buffalo caliber as ever existed, see above for my take on Ruger rifles.
 
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