I disagree with your assessment. Since this is a bit off topic and has been discussed at length in other threads, I'll leave it at that.
Is 6 Shots Really Enough?
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I disagree with your assessment. Since this is a bit off topic and has been discussed at length in other threads, I'll leave it at that.
Gentlemen,
It is nice to see that barnbwt is reiterating what I posted earlier, hopefully guiding the discussion to a timeline issue that is highly relevant. As he and I noted, if you posit attackers that are merely going to stand still like paper plates on boards, rather than move laterally, forward or backward, a person may lean toward 'round count' as opposed to 'miliseconds count'. As we noted, if the attackers stand still, time is on our side to an extent. However, if they move forward, distance to contact is likely covered in too little time to engage before we are being beaten. If they are firing at us, barnbwt's averages (and mine) indicated we will be shot in half the time they are. If they are moving rearward (retiring or retreating) this changes the legal equation, and may also give us more time for assessment or even 'topping off'. If they are moving laterally, side - to - side, in an envelopment, this also reduces our ability to engage, but may reduce theirs as well, to the extent that 'distance is our friend', and may elongate the timeline to our advantage.
No one is arguing, I believe, that we should accept governmental fiat or dictate, and situations can range from 'common' assault by thugs to other situations.
Golden's experience of self defense mirrors the most common, that most street thugs are lazy cowards. In his situation, as well as mine and many others, having the gun, not necessarily it's caliber, weight, size, capacity, etc, made all the difference. One of many reasons to suggest smaller pistols and revolvers, despite their relative lack of number of rounds, is that they are more often present when needed; to use the old saw, the .22 in hand beats the .44 at home.
It is a highly relevant question of how many rounds can a defender fire accurately in a very compressed time. I will cite again the two incidents that I know of from reading in the local paper of multiple gang members overcoming defenders with 'high capacity' weapons' from the uses of overwhelming numbers and speed of assault. If one is being charged by 8 attackers, how soon will they be upon the defender? One second? Two seconds? Maybe three?
Food for thought...
It is nice to see that barnbwt is reiterating what I posted earlier, hopefully guiding the discussion to a timeline issue that is highly relevant. As he and I noted, if you posit attackers that are merely going to stand still like paper plates on boards, rather than move laterally, forward or backward, a person may lean toward 'round count' as opposed to 'miliseconds count'. As we noted, if the attackers stand still, time is on our side to an extent. However, if they move forward, distance to contact is likely covered in too little time to engage before we are being beaten. If they are firing at us, barnbwt's averages (and mine) indicated we will be shot in half the time they are. If they are moving rearward (retiring or retreating) this changes the legal equation, and may also give us more time for assessment or even 'topping off'. If they are moving laterally, side - to - side, in an envelopment, this also reduces our ability to engage, but may reduce theirs as well, to the extent that 'distance is our friend', and may elongate the timeline to our advantage.
No one is arguing, I believe, that we should accept governmental fiat or dictate, and situations can range from 'common' assault by thugs to other situations.
Golden's experience of self defense mirrors the most common, that most street thugs are lazy cowards. In his situation, as well as mine and many others, having the gun, not necessarily it's caliber, weight, size, capacity, etc, made all the difference. One of many reasons to suggest smaller pistols and revolvers, despite their relative lack of number of rounds, is that they are more often present when needed; to use the old saw, the .22 in hand beats the .44 at home.
It is a highly relevant question of how many rounds can a defender fire accurately in a very compressed time. I will cite again the two incidents that I know of from reading in the local paper of multiple gang members overcoming defenders with 'high capacity' weapons' from the uses of overwhelming numbers and speed of assault. If one is being charged by 8 attackers, how soon will they be upon the defender? One second? Two seconds? Maybe three?
Food for thought...
You cannot assume that a mugging or gunfight will be well planned and rational
smle41,
My own experience and observations of others convince me that a gun fight or even just a unarmed mugging will probably go as NO ONE ANTICIPATED.
The mugger wants money, jewelry and credit cards. If a rapist, they may also see an opportunity. I doubt that most muggers want to hurt you, much less kill you.
On the other hand, some of the really brutal gangs that have emerged take pride in a "FIRST KILL". Do you really want to plan on the itelligence or forethought of someone who decides to become a robber?
Also, I doubt that many ccw using victims will use their gun as planned. I know that the police rarely do! A bizarre incident that took place many years ago involved an armed robber who got stopped by a uniformed officer in BROWARD County, Florida.
Bad guy bails and shoots at cop. Cop gets out and empties his 14 shot 9m.m. at the bad gun ducking down behind his car, a Chevette I think. End result, a riddled car and ONE hit in the bad guy. Right behind the bad guy was another plate glass window on the front of a hotel!
Another incident in BROWARD was much more tragic. A monster posing as a human being and working at the POMPANO Harness Track was walking up the road, late at night.
The police were looking for an attempted rape suspect who matched this guy's description. An off duty K-9 officer, working guard duty had been alerted and pulled up next to the guy.
The officer questioned the suspect and they got into a struggle. The badguy got hold of the officer's gun and shot him. The officer died later that night.
Afterwards, it turned out that the suspect was a possible serial rapist-murdered who had escaped from a mental asylum in WASHINGTON, D.C.
He then went to work at horse tracks where woman working with him were terrified of him. Some of those woman were later found dead!
The point is that YOU CANNOT PREDICT WHO YOU WILL MEET. Sure, this was a case of an LEO confronting a suspect, but in that neighborhood, the badguy would not have stood out at all.
Last night I was not able to eat in the RUBY TUESDAY restaurant in TAMPA because it was late and they wanted to seat me in the bar. As a rule, I will not go into a bar, especially when I am carrying a gun. It would probably be legal under Florida law as this is a restaurant, not strictly a bar serving liqour, but I like to avoid problems and staying out of bars is one way.
Not being flashy in dress or car is another. So is carrying concealed.
I know this is off the track a little, but if you plan how things are going to go, you have to understand they may not go that way. I interupted a domestic argument one night on the way home and thought it was a kidnapping.
A large male, dragging a petite female who was screaming, "let me go, I won't go with you".
I stopped and orderd the male to release the "GIRL".
It turned out to be newlyweds having their first fight with him drunk and irrational.
GUESS WHAT! He was an off duty cop. You can bet that I sweated that one for a few minutes, never taking my eyes of him and watching were his hands went. After 10 minutes, they made up and SHE drove them away.
I had drawn my gun, but kept it in the ready position, not pointed at the male.
Like I said, you can never plan on how things are going to go.
My advice is to carry as powerful gun as you can with as many rounds, at least 15, so you have a reload. YOU WILL WANT THAT IF YOU HAVE TO CLEAR A JAM.
If you want to carry a 5 shot J-frame, practice, practice and then practice some with RELOADING ONLY FROM SPEEDLOADERS.
Jim
smle41,
My own experience and observations of others convince me that a gun fight or even just a unarmed mugging will probably go as NO ONE ANTICIPATED.
The mugger wants money, jewelry and credit cards. If a rapist, they may also see an opportunity. I doubt that most muggers want to hurt you, much less kill you.
On the other hand, some of the really brutal gangs that have emerged take pride in a "FIRST KILL". Do you really want to plan on the itelligence or forethought of someone who decides to become a robber?
Also, I doubt that many ccw using victims will use their gun as planned. I know that the police rarely do! A bizarre incident that took place many years ago involved an armed robber who got stopped by a uniformed officer in BROWARD County, Florida.
Bad guy bails and shoots at cop. Cop gets out and empties his 14 shot 9m.m. at the bad gun ducking down behind his car, a Chevette I think. End result, a riddled car and ONE hit in the bad guy. Right behind the bad guy was another plate glass window on the front of a hotel!
Another incident in BROWARD was much more tragic. A monster posing as a human being and working at the POMPANO Harness Track was walking up the road, late at night.
The police were looking for an attempted rape suspect who matched this guy's description. An off duty K-9 officer, working guard duty had been alerted and pulled up next to the guy.
The officer questioned the suspect and they got into a struggle. The badguy got hold of the officer's gun and shot him. The officer died later that night.
Afterwards, it turned out that the suspect was a possible serial rapist-murdered who had escaped from a mental asylum in WASHINGTON, D.C.
He then went to work at horse tracks where woman working with him were terrified of him. Some of those woman were later found dead!
The point is that YOU CANNOT PREDICT WHO YOU WILL MEET. Sure, this was a case of an LEO confronting a suspect, but in that neighborhood, the badguy would not have stood out at all.
Last night I was not able to eat in the RUBY TUESDAY restaurant in TAMPA because it was late and they wanted to seat me in the bar. As a rule, I will not go into a bar, especially when I am carrying a gun. It would probably be legal under Florida law as this is a restaurant, not strictly a bar serving liqour, but I like to avoid problems and staying out of bars is one way.
Not being flashy in dress or car is another. So is carrying concealed.
I know this is off the track a little, but if you plan how things are going to go, you have to understand they may not go that way. I interupted a domestic argument one night on the way home and thought it was a kidnapping.
A large male, dragging a petite female who was screaming, "let me go, I won't go with you".
I stopped and orderd the male to release the "GIRL".
It turned out to be newlyweds having their first fight with him drunk and irrational.
GUESS WHAT! He was an off duty cop. You can bet that I sweated that one for a few minutes, never taking my eyes of him and watching were his hands went. After 10 minutes, they made up and SHE drove them away.
I had drawn my gun, but kept it in the ready position, not pointed at the male.
Like I said, you can never plan on how things are going to go.
My advice is to carry as powerful gun as you can with as many rounds, at least 15, so you have a reload. YOU WILL WANT THAT IF YOU HAVE TO CLEAR A JAM.
If you want to carry a 5 shot J-frame, practice, practice and then practice some with RELOADING ONLY FROM SPEEDLOADERS.
Jim
barnbwt
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Perhaps no so much "food for thought" as "food for feeling" which is what actually drives many of our self defense choices 
. Even a brief glance at the factors involved in an SD scenario show the astronomically small likelihood of obtaining significant benefit from more than 6. But anyone who thinks that means there's something wrong with carrying more isn't reading carefully. The point is, no one with 6 shots they can use proficiently is under gunned in any SD scenario where survival is likely and possible, SO STOP BAGGING ON THE WHEELGUNS
If I'm approached by 8 Russian mafia hitmen I'm going to drop my gun, because the odds of winning a shootout are worse than surviving being beaten and escaping. Some fights you can't win (and don't say "not with that attitude")
TCB
. Even a brief glance at the factors involved in an SD scenario show the astronomically small likelihood of obtaining significant benefit from more than 6. But anyone who thinks that means there's something wrong with carrying more isn't reading carefully. The point is, no one with 6 shots they can use proficiently is under gunned in any SD scenario where survival is likely and possible, SO STOP BAGGING ON THE WHEELGUNS If I'm approached by 8 Russian mafia hitmen I'm going to drop my gun, because the odds of winning a shootout are worse than surviving being beaten and escaping. Some fights you can't win (and don't say "not with that attitude"
)TCB
David E
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. I knew I'd get some wise-ass answer for that scenario; "Before beating me down, perhaps you gents would care to line up for just a moment and introduce yourselves..." marcclarke
Member
Would you please be so kind as to cite some documented real-life instances wherein law-abiding, non-LEO U.S. civilians used their handgun to fight their way to their carbine and then subsequently won the gunfight using their carbine? U.S. states only, please, no foreign countries.
I respectfully assert that there are no such cases. Please prove me wrong by citing a dozen or so documented cases.
marcclarke
Member
How many cases have you heard of wherein the good guy lost the gunfight without running out of ammunition?
R.W.Dale
Member
You dug up a month old necrothread to say that?
Heck while we're on the subject I'm doubtful an instance could be cited where a civilian engaging in self defense actually needed to reload BEFORE neutralizing the threat.
Heck while we're on the subject I'm doubtful an instance could be cited where a civilian engaging in self defense actually needed to reload BEFORE neutralizing the threat.
S.B.
Member
I understand you are eluding to defense but, for hunting you do know some guns ofter are only safe carrying 5. They're often carried for dangerous game. IE, Freedom Arms for example.
Steve
Steve
marcclarke
Member
Gabe Suarez posed that very question over on the Warrior Talk forum several years ago when that forum had about 10,000 members, IIRC. As far as I know, no one in the WT member base was able to provide a citation or even a first-hand account of such a case. The conclusion was that a non-LEO, non-military civilian finishes the gunfight with no more ammunition than what was in the civilian's handgun when the fight began, win or lose. Reloading just doesn't happen. That in turn drove Gabe's thinking toward a high capacity magazine, as the forum members' many experiments with running off the X showed that one tends to miss one's also running attacker far more frequently than when one stands still and one's attacker cooperatively stands still and waits to be shot. Then add in the rising percentage of attacks involving multiple attackers.
Thus I found this thread to be of great interest.
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The thread was only one month old. That is NOT a necro.
I hate it when people say "handgun to fight their way to a long gun" thing.
As was demonstrated above, for regular private citizens...that just doesn't happen. It just doesn't. Either the problem, or you, get solved with the firearm(s) you started with/had on your person.
Of course there's no guarantee of that, but to talk about concealed (or open) carry and throw out that pistols are for fighting to a long gun is completely irrelevant.
I hate it when people say "handgun to fight their way to a long gun" thing.
As was demonstrated above, for regular private citizens...that just doesn't happen. It just doesn't. Either the problem, or you, get solved with the firearm(s) you started with/had on your person.
Of course there's no guarantee of that, but to talk about concealed (or open) carry and throw out that pistols are for fighting to a long gun is completely irrelevant.
SharpsDressedMan
member
Geez, for crying out loud! Maybe you always have luck on your side. Since variety is the spice of life, and this is still a RELATIVELY free country, let the other guy do his thing. Some days I pack a six shot revolver, and other days a 15 shot auto with a spare magazine, and OTHER days something in between. I sure as hell don't rely on any OTHER armchair commando dictating my needs OR wants. And by the way, there is often a folding stock AKM with several magazines in the trunk of my car that I will probably never need, but it makes me better armed than the police, should I ever need to bail THEM out of a bad situation.
None of the LEA's in your area issue or allow rifles?
PS: I might argue that a few police officers with shotguns and vests are better armed than one person with a rifle.
But yes, to each their own. It's all of our own personal decisions what to carry. Or whether to carry at all.
David E
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No one was postulating the merits of reloading during the fight. (Reload after, in case it's not over)
The question was, is six shots enough to PREVAIL?
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tomrkba
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Exactly, because it's BS. It'll be long drive for most people. As much as we'd love for Americans to man up and actually carry any handgun, it's not going to happen until the vast majority of Americans change their mentality.
If six is not enough, then carry something else.
beatledog7
Member
For 99.99% of us on 99.99% of days, zero rounds would be enough. The same can be said for automobile or homeowners' insurance--most days we don't need it.
But what rational man or woman doesn't carry care and fire insurance?
I have carried only as few five rounds many, many times and never felt frightened that I'd run out of bullets before ending the fight. I've also carried 38 rounds for my primary and another seven in a BUG. Frankly, that felt weird.
But what rational man or woman doesn't carry care and fire insurance?
I have carried only as few five rounds many, many times and never felt frightened that I'd run out of bullets before ending the fight. I've also carried 38 rounds for my primary and another seven in a BUG. Frankly, that felt weird.
marcclarke
Member
That would depend very strongly on the distance between the rifleman and the police officers. Buckshot is only effective to 25 yards or so (have you patterned your shotgun at 25 yards with 00 buckshot?).
Also, most rifles will easily shoot through standard issue police bullet resistant vests, which are only rated to stop handgun bullets.
An SKS or a semiautomatic AKM with the 7.62 x 39 cartridge will easily shoot through both sides of a vehicle and both sides of a handgun rated vest such as those typically worn by police officers.
So no I would not agree that a few police officers with shotguns and vests are better armed than one person with a rifle. The rifleman's rifle significantly outranges the police officers' shotguns and the rifleman's rifle will shoot through the policemens' vests.
That would depend very strongly on the distance between the rifleman and the police officers. Buckshot is only effective to 25 yards or so (have you patterned your shotgun at 25 yards with 00 buckshot?).
Also, most rifles will easily shoot through standard issue police bullet resistant vests, which are only rated to stop handgun bullets.
An SKS or a semiautomatic AKM with the 7.62 x 39 cartridge will easily shoot through both sides of a vehicle and both sides of a handgun rated vest such as those typically worn by police officers.
So no I would not agree that a few police officers with shotguns and vests are better armed than one person with a rifle. The rifleman's rifle significantly outranges the police officers' shotguns and the rifleman's rifle will shoot through the policemens' vests.
I prefer #1 buck.
Here is one shot of #1 buck at 25 yards. If need be, I think I could put effective rounds/pellets on target well beyond 25 yards. (and I have plenty of 00 buck that will pattern just as tightly)
But then the officers may well have slugs on hand, and the officer's shotguns will go right through the Rifleman's unarmoured body.
POA = POI
Additionally, and more to the point, I wasn't talking about you with a rifle in a gunfight against 3 police officers. I was actually thinking about either you with a rifle OR 3 police officers in a gunfight with a criminal. Very few armed criminals are Rifleman with a rifle. And I'm probably putting my money on the three police officers.
Marcclark, You are speaking as if policemen aren't using slugs at all. We carry both 000 buck and 1 oz. slugs. At my agency we train to make a torso-size hit from prone at 100 yards. Granted, it is unlikely to penetrate a vest, but it will as minimum knock the breath out of him and is likely to cause a broken rib or two. At that range I do prefer my AR, but if the shotgun is in my hands already, I am competent with it.
I've taken whitetail with a Winchester model 12 at 100 yards. It's not that difficult with the correct sights.
I've taken whitetail with a Winchester model 12 at 100 yards. It's not that difficult with the correct sights.
Screw it.
Carry what makes you feel warm and fuzzy. That's what I do.
A buddy of mine sold his GP100(STUPID!!) and got a Block 23, because he's been convinced by gun salesman that 6 rounds of 125 grain HP aren't enough.
I carry what I feel comfortable carrying.
Sometimes I carry a nunya, and other times I carry a nunya or two.
I may even carry a nunya spray and a telescopic nunya.
Carry what makes you feel warm and fuzzy. That's what I do.
A buddy of mine sold his GP100(STUPID!!) and got a Block 23, because he's been convinced by gun salesman that 6 rounds of 125 grain HP aren't enough.
I carry what I feel comfortable carrying.
Sometimes I carry a nunya, and other times I carry a nunya or two.
I may even carry a nunya spray and a telescopic nunya.
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