Is a J frame enough?

[Gun Master]

Total Untimed Assured Gunfight At Some Time

It would most definitely be my rifle - but since carrying it concealed is a bit out of the question. It would still be one of my J frames.

I second the motion ! Make mine a S&W Model 38 Airweight Bodyguard.

 

[shooting time]

I carried a J frame(model 60) for over 30 yrs but lately been carrying a kel-tec or ruger LC9 I like the auto's because they conceal better in the summer but the J frame works great in the winter in a jacket pocket if needed you can shoot from inside your jacket pocket without it jamming.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Gun Master: I second the motion [ It would still be one of my J frames.] !

I can certainly see opting to stake everything on having two of them, but why one?

With what proportion of your very rapidly fired shots at a charging target do you expect to hit in a quickly unfolding, stressful situation? How many hits do you expect to need to put into each target to stop him before he has run past you? For how many perps do you want to be prepared? Do you want to be left standing with an empty gun? Do you like the idea of a reserve?

 

[Schwing]

I am not an LEO but work for a county LE agency. I personally don't know any officers who don't carry off duty. Just a few miles north of us, it was an Ogden City off-duty officer carrying that stopped the Trolley Square mall massacre a few years back.

When I am in business casual attire, I almost always carry a J frame or my LCR. I am not a tremendous shot but, with it, even I can hit a man sized silhouette on center mass at 100 yards with a ton of effort. At 50 yards it takes a lot of effort and at 25 yards it takes a little effort. At 12-15 yards it is very nearly an autonomic response. At 5 or less feet (which is where most SD situations occur), it is as challenging as pulling the trigger whilst making sure it is pointing in the right direction. In this situation, my greatest concerns are probably going to be more about my mental state, my judgement as to whether it really is a SD situation and how fast I can get the gun in my hands.
I know all of us ponder and try to prepare mentally for these situations but I don't believe you really know how you will react unless the situation actually occurs.

Even so, I shoot it at least 2-3 sessions per month to make sure I can hit with it. When I first bought the thing, I couldn't hit the side of a barn with it unless I was aiming at the target next to it.

 

[snooperman]

For up-close encounters the snub nose 38 special is an excellent choice providing you are proficient with it. It's proven reliability is second to none for conceal carry.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Schwing: I am not a tremendous shot but, with it, even I can hit a man sized silhouette on center mass at 100 yards with a ton of effort. At 50 yards it takes a lot of effort and at 25 yards it takes a little effort. At 12-15 yards it is very nearly an autonomic response. At 5 or less feet (which is where most SD situations occur), it is as challenging as pulling the trigger whilst making sure it is pointing in the right direction.

So--how well do you do when the target is moving in changing directions at a speed of 5 to 7 yards per second?

How quickly can you do that...

...while you are attempting to get behind something or out of his way?

If you are shooting him for the first time at 5 feet, how do you expect to stop him before he does you in...

..and how many shots do you think you will have to put into him?

In this situation, my greatest concerns are probably going to be more about my mental state, my judgement as to whether it really is a SD situation and how fast I can get the gun in my hands.

Good thinking.

I know all of us ponder and try to prepare mentally for these situations but I don't believe you really know how you will react unless the situation actually occurs.

I agree.

Some good FoF training should give you an idea, though.

 

[mavracer]

It's been more than enough up til now, odds are it'll continue that way unless it isn't.

 

[Gun Master]

What Gun? J Frame, of Course!

I can certainly see opting to stake everything on having two of them, but why one?

With what proportion of your very rapidly fired shots at a charging target do you expect to hit in a quickly unfolding, stressful situation? How many hits do you expect to need to put into each target to stop him before he has run past you? For how many perps do you want to be prepared? Do you want to be left standing with an empty gun? Do you like the idea of a reserve?

You certainly ask a lot of questions in rapid succession.

I think the title and # 1 posting of the thread should be re-read. "Is (a) J frame enough?" for starters.

In post #51, I was seconding posting # 49 ....."what gun"...,which was a re-quote of post # 48 ...."100% chance....what gun"... You will notice gun is singular in both. Also in the thread title.

I have no objections to back-up carry, which I have done myself on occasion. In # 47, I also express some of my carry options.

To be clear, "what gun" would be J frame, and "yes" it is enough for me.

 

[mugsie]

Depends on where I'm going, time of year, and what I'm wearing. I'm 5'11", 230 lbs, and it varies between a Sig P250, a S&W 642 or a Ruger LCP. It all depends.

.... And I feel safe and comfortable with all of them because if I am ever called upon to pull one of them, and I hope that never happens, I know I will do my part and the round will do it's job.

 

[Doug S]

Lifestyle will dictate much of this. If you are a person who has the freedom to dress however you want, and only go in and out of the places of your choosing, on your decided upon schedule, well then you can carry pretty much anything that you want. If on the other hand, you are an individual whose job, and/or other lifestyle factors dictate that you must wear certain types of clothing, and/or frequent places that are "unfriendly" toward firearms (or places where firearms are illegal), then you will have to make decisions accordingly. For many a small J-Frame in their pocket will have to suffice, regardless of what might be "ideal", and I for one am happy to have one.

 

[Gun Master]

J Frame Liker's Club

Lifestyle will dictate much of this. If you are a person who has the freedom to dress however you want, and only go in and out of the places of your choosing, on your decided upon schedule, well then you can carry pretty much anything that you want. If on the other hand, you are an individual whose job, and/or other lifestyle factors dictate that you must wear certain types of clothing, and/or frequent places that are "unfriendly" toward firearms (or places where firearms are illegal), then you will have to make decisions accordingly. For many a small J-Frame in their pocket will have to suffice, regardless of what might be "ideal", and I for one am happy to have one.

I'm with you ! Nobody "has to" or "is made to" carry a J frame. Those who do, know and reap the benefits. And I ,for one, am glad to tote one (or more).

 

[Barkoff]

.38+p is about perfect for self defense, by "not enough", were you asking about capacity?

 

[kilibreaux]

The thing about small, LIGHT guns is they get dropped into a pocket when the bigger, heavier stuff gets left at home.
I have one of everything...but the gun I carry most is my Beretta Tomcat .32ACP, and second to that is my Kahr P380. I've got an S&W 642 PRO coming and it will almost certainly become part of my everyday carry.
I own bigger guns...which I carry in my car as a "backup" so to speak.
IF I want to get "strapped" I carry my S&W M500 with four spare speed loaders. I have supreme confidence in both my ability to shoot the .500 Magnum VERY WELL, and the ability of a bullet delivering the equivalent of a .308 rifle to provide an immediate cessation of hostilities.

 

[2ndamd]

Gun writer Walt Rauch said it best
"We all preach .45
Shoot 9mm
and carry a .38"
(We refers to gun writers and instructors)

Ed Lovette has a book called the
"The Snubby Revolver"

In the real world situation, you will not be fighting bank robbers with automatic weapons. And if you are in that scenario a 15 shot 9mm vs a 5 shot .38 is not going to make or break you.

Real world looks like 1-2 assailants
You are the law abiding citizen.........so guess what? You have already been hit, shot or stabbed in all likelihood. Because you are the law abiding citizen, in a lethal force fight, you are ALREADY Behind. Some threat has come at you and you need to react quickly. Situational awareness and a .38 are all you need.

One nice thing about a snub nose .38 is that they will shoot through a pocket. So, you can keep your hand on the gun and gun can stay concealed and pointing at any person trying to talk to you or threaten you. If they attack? Just pull the trigger. Saving time of a draw.

I have tried this with an old jacket that did not fit too well any longer. Both pockets were tried and it really does a number on the jacket where the muzzle and where the cylinder gap are located. One forum member was mad that I ruined a jacket. In a deadly force situation you are worried about if the jacket was ruined? Okay? Not me. I'll take my life over the jacket. (if you try this at home be sure to push the jacket straight out, away from your body, as the flame cutting will burn your side)

Just some thoughts

 

[blue32]

delete

 

[Fiv3r]

I would say that in skilled hands, 99.8% of the time a 5 shot .38 special J frame will do the trick if you play statistics.

I carry several guns depending on the time of year and what I am wearing. Today, it's polymer 9mm with a 17 round magazine under an over-shirt. When it warms up, I might only be able to tuck an LCP in my back pocket. Not ideal, but 7 rounds of .380 is better than nothing.

That said, if you absolutely forced me to pick my favorite carry piece and made me forsake all others, it would be my 2.25" SP101 in .357. Now, I know it's bigger than a J-frame, but I don't shoot a J as well as the heavier SP. I generally prefer to wear it on an OWB holster in the winter months when I can throw a sweat shirt over it, but in the fall and spring it slips nicely into the slash pockets on the old light weight barn coat I wear out and about when I go for a walk with my family.

I'd pick it for a few reasons. I can actually hit what I'm aiming out out to 10 yards pretty easily, it packs a good punch, it's there in my pocket ready to go with my hand on the butt most of the time, it doesn't print like a semi, and if I find myself deep in the blood and guts with an empty gun and an assailant within bad breath range it makes a hellova club

I pack a lot of guns I feel at "better" than the snubbie most of the time. Weight, capacity, etc. But if I'm in a hurry and can't be bothered to thread on a holster or find an outfit that hides the contour of my 9mm or 1911, I feel totally fine with nothing more than that 5 shot snub nose resting quietly in my jacket pocket.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by 2ndamd: Ed Lovette has a book called the "The Snubby Revolver"

It's a good one. A must for the bookshelf.

Much of what is in the book applies equally to a reliable semi-auto with a decent grip, good sights, and higher capacity, but Lovette does discusses the advantages of the snobby revolver--reliability, small size, and so on.

He does not contend that a snubbly revolver is the ideal defensive weapon; rather, he speaks about how valuable it can be to have one when you have nothing else.

Today, when we say "snubby revolver", many people automatically think "J-Frame". But Lovette laments the demise of the Colt Detective Special and its light alloy variants. Lovette speaks highly of the trigger, the grip, and the sixth shot. He likens the five shot snubby to the modern equivalent of a derringer--a hide-away gun for the last resort.

One nice thing about a snub nose .38 is that they will shoot through a pocket. So, you can keep your hand on the gun and gun can stay concealed and pointing at any person trying to talk to you or threaten you. If they attack? Just pull the trigger. Saving time of a draw.

Very true indeed.

In the real world situation, you will not be fighting bank robbers with automatic weapons. ...Real world looks like 1-2 assailants...

There could be one assailant. Two are more are equally likely.

There has been enough discussion here about whether one should bet everything on five shots when facing two attackers to make more repetition valuable. What would be valuable is some careful assessment and critical thinking, and perhaps some training to illustrate the reality,

Some threat has come at you and you need to react quickly. Situational awareness and a .38 are all you need.

Along with the skills and enough ammo....

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Fiv3r: I would say that in skilled hands, 99.8% of the time a 5 shot .38 special J frame will do the trick if you play statistics.

In Post #25, Skibs points out that, with a 30% hit probability and the need to score four hit sin total on however many assailants, five shots will not do the trick 96.9% of the time.

But if you want to challenge that and "play statistics", vary the hit rate and the number of hits required and do the math yourself.

I've done enough of that t cause me to switch to a higher capacity carry piece.

A viable option would be a "New York Reload."

 

[PRM]

"We all preach .45, Shoot 9mm, and carry a .38"
(We refers to gun writers and instructors)

Now that's funny, and probably rings with a great degree of truth.

One nice thing about a snub nose .38 is that they will shoot through a pocket. So, you can keep your hand on the gun and gun can stay concealed and pointing at any person trying to talk to you or threaten you. If they attack? Just pull the trigger. Saving time of a draw.

Hum... bet that plays heck with accuracy, would also make range practice a little pricy. Not too mention all those holey garments are a dead give away. Also, not a reliable tactic if your snubby has an exposed hammer. The hammer can bind-up in the material depending on the the type of clothing/jacket. Shrouded and internal hammered guns will function fine.

 

[camsdaddy]

If I'm not mistaken up until at least a few years ago Mr.Lovette was carrying a SP101. I want to say he was giving an LCR a run but unsure as of late.

 

[jimbo555]

" Five shots will not do the trick". Any links to an average citizen confronted by multiple attackers and 5 shots wasn't enough?

 

[GBExpat]

Is a J frame enough?

IMO, properly applied, yes.

I think that a J frame is a step above Better Than No Gun ... so call that Much Better Than No Gun ... along with other .32s and/or .380s like the Kel-Tec P3AT and PPK.

Unlike many, I do not always step out of the house prepared for extended gun battles. I am usually comfortable for everyday travel toting a pistol in this category ... at other select times, not.

Better to carry a smaller gun than talk yourself out of carrying a larger/heavier one, y'know?

 

[Comrade Mike]

I practice with my 36 out to 25 yards and can score center mass hits all day. For something quick to throw in my pocket for a short trip I don't mind the 36. But I'd rather have something with longer sight radius and a little more capacity.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by GBExpat: I think that a J frame is a step above Better Than No Gun ... so call that Much Better Than No Gun

Certainly, and that is Mr. Lovette's main point. So is a derringer.

Unlike many, I do not always step out of the house prepared for extended gun battles.

Few people do. Your "gun battle" against a couple of really bad people armed with bludgeons, knives, and or handguns will be over in a couple of seconds. The only questions are (1) will you prevail, and (2) would you like some kind of reserve.

I am usually comfortable for everyday travel toting a pistol in this category ... at other select times, not.

Fine, but realistically, how "comfortable" one may feel is not likely to influence the outcome at all, should deadly force be needed.

I once thought I was well armed when I carried a Centennial. But I had not objectively analyzed the probabilities.

Some of us remember when Colt emphasized "that all important sixth shot" when advertising their snubby revolvers. That had a major effect on sales.

Better to carry a smaller gun than talk yourself out of carrying a larger/heavier one, y'know?

Yes indeed. But my Ruger SR9c is only slightly larger than my Centennial. And it is much smaller than two Centennials, though somewhat less reliable.

One of the main point that Tom Givens makes in Lessons from the Street is "carry a 'real gun' ".

 

[larbear]

J frame is an ok carry. Shot placement and accuracy are paramount. If either is in question carry a higher capacity auto.